p.13 #1 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Rickuz wrote:
That sounds great. But believe it or not, most photography is concentrated around static or semi-static subjects. This includes portraits, landscapes, studio work, macro work, architectural, urban, product photography, still life, fine arts, e.t.c. The list can be made very long.
What I'm trying to say is that most photographers don't need a 1kg camera with one gazillion focus points.
I sure don't. What I do want however, is "the ultimate image quality" at base ISO, and this is where Canon has fallen behind. So thank you Sony, for picking up where Canon left off.
While many photography subjects and styles can be done without AF, there is a reason that AF is such a key feature on so many cameras. Why were so many complaining about the 'crippled' AF in the 5Dii and now 6D?
A huge market for dslr's is parents and families. They all want AF in a camera. Sports and most wedding photographers want AF. Lots of studio and portrait people prefer AF.
If mirrorless cameras were taking such a chunk out of dslr, we would've already seen big signs of that. NEX and m4/3 have been fairly mature product lines for quite a while. Adding a FF NEX to the line is really just a small step for Sony, it isn't creating an entirely new product area. They certainly have a hold in some market areas, but aren't 'dslr killers' as some would like to think.
p.13 #2 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
I have no clue what Canon are up to despite working for them, but I've heard they were already having high level meetings about the Sony development. Canon are well aware of their limitations on the sensor front and will not just soldier on blind to their competition. Rightly or wrongly they chose to focus on other areas for the current gen DSLR's but they really only have the sensor left to address for their next gen cameras, they don't have much more wriggle room. It would be silly to think Canon have not been testing various prototype sensors and have not been readying new steppers for their sensors, which are currently trailing edge. I think a big mistake was not swallowing their pride and looking outside the company for new steppers.
One thing is if Canon can deliver a competitive sensor they have most of the rest of the elements in place and any new DSLRs like a 5D IV or 1D XI would be very successful.
I doubt Sony can do much more with their sensors, so they might want to start getting their act together on AF as they aren't even in the ballpark compared to Olympus and Panasonic in the mirrorless market. Maybe the A7 will improve things greatly.
p.13 #3 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Pixel Perfect wrote:
I doubt Sony can do much more with their sensors, so they might want to start getting their act together on AF as they aren't even in the ballpark compared to Olympus and Panasonic in the mirrorless market. Maybe the A7 will improve things greatly.
Sony and Canon should co-develop a new sensor with Canon on-chip AF. Don't spend enough time looking at white papers and engineering stuff to know if that would be possible. But it would be interesting for both companies.
p.13 #4 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Pixel Perfect wrote:
I have no clue what Canon are up to despite working for them, but I've heard they were already having high level meetings about the Sony development. Canon are well aware of their limitations on the sensor front and will not just soldier on blind to their competition. Rightly or wrongly they chose to focus on other areas for the current gen DSLR's but they really only have the sensor left to address for their next gen cameras, they don't have much more wriggle room. It would be silly to think Canon have not been testing various prototype sensors and have not been readying new steppers for their sensors, which are currently trailing edge. I think a big mistake was not swallowing their pride and looking outside the company for new steppers.
One thing is if Canon can deliver a competitive sensor they have most of the rest of the elements in place and any new DSLRs like a 5D IV or 1D XI would be very successful.
I doubt Sony can do much more with their sensors, so they might want to start getting their act together on AF as they aren't even in the ballpark compared to Olympus and Panasonic in the mirrorless market. Maybe the A7 will improve things greatly.
Agree with all you said in your first paragraph, to the second paragraph you might know better than I do regarding your workplace. The last sentence is more questionable since it also depends on pricing. I disagree that a 1D XI would be very successful, but we had this discussion earlier in another thread.
Third paragraph: we simply don't know, I think Sony is capable. A friend of mine once told me several years back "Sony should just stick to their music stuff, nothing else is worthwhile from them". This is a thing from the past - times have changed. I also don't think that they need to be as perfect in AF capabilities as Canon or Nikon are - they might simply focus on photographers who don't rely on fast fps and this very good AF. I also believe that Sony has enough room to improve there in their next generation of mirrorless FF cameras. Exciting times!
p.13 #5 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
jctriguy wrote:
Sony and Canon should co-develop a new sensor with Canon on-chip AF. Don't spend enough time looking at white papers and engineering stuff to know if that would be possible. But it would be interesting for both companies.
Yes, this is a valid option. But unlikely - Sony already has Nikon under contract with this sensor technology. Of course there could be a new contract even with Nikon's main competitor, it is possible. I believe that the only reason why Sony gave Nikon this technology in the first place was because Sony wasn't advanced far enough in the FF market on their own with suitable camera bodies. They had the great sensor but not the infrastructure at the time to use it well. So Nikon and Sony saw an opportunity and agreed to use the Exmor sensor in Nikon's FF camera bodies.
Now Sony has caught up with their camera bodies and can use its own sensor technology. I don't see any reason currently why they should give anything to Canon (or Nikon in the future).
p.13 #7 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
1DXI, 1DXS, 1DX II.. they are all 1D XL to me.
Since Canons upcoming high MP camera will be aimed at landscapers, it shouldn't be an elephant camera. No body likes to drag around on a 1D-style body when hiking or walking around among the hills.
If it turns out to be a bigass 1D, I'll just keep my little A7R.
p.13 #8 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Rickuz wrote:
1D XL is what it would be.
Since Canons upcoming high MP camera will be aimed at landscapers, it shouldn't be an elephant camera. No body likes to drag around in a 1D-style body when hiking or walking around among the hills.
Yep. But Canon is a huge and large company and moves like a slow dinosaur. They cannot change earlier made market decisions quickly enough regarding competition - we have seen it in the recent past. It is likely a political decision also - not even going into the cultural Japanese attitude with keeping the face no matter what.
If we only see a high MP/high DR 1D camera from Canon first, it is a clear sign that they don't move according to the market. Kodak did the same thing by ignoring the demand of digital processing instead of film (even the FF market is much smaller than film vs. digital in the past, also Canon won't go under even if they lose the FF market completely).
p.13 #10 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Rickuz wrote:
That sounds great. But believe it or not, most photography is concentrated around static or semi-static subjects. This includes portraits, landscapes, studio work, macro work, architectural, urban, product photography, still life, fine arts, e.t.c. The list can be made very long.
What I'm trying to say is that most photographers don't need a 1kg camera with one gazillion focus points.
I sure don't. What I do want however, is "the ultimate image quality" at base ISO, and this is where Canon has fallen behind. So thank you Sony, for picking up where Canon left off.
What on earth was all the fuss about getting 45+ AF pts into a 5D2 replacement? That's just about all that a gazillion forum threads went on about ad infinitum. Then last year Canon gave everyone what they'd been screaming for since 2009. Once the AF was sorted suddenly the mp count and dynamic range was not good enough (Now it's the size!!!). Canon have certainly not made the advancements Sony and Nikon have in the sensor dept., but as an overall package the 5D3 is what thousands of Canon photogs were screaming for.
Sure most photography is as you described. I cant argue that, but for those who need a camera that does just about everything in one package these little mirrorless EVF bodies are not it. Sports, action, photo journalism (I don't think an A7 is going to cut in the middle of a riot or in a warzone) and wildlife are also very big business. If I could justify it, I'd love to buy an A7R in addition to my Canon bodies, just for landscape, but I wouldn't replace either one with it. Out in the field with an A7R/metabones attached to a 500mm f/4 = bad day, but with a 5D3 it would be a very good day
I was shooting alongside a guy last week who was using a D800 on a Sigmonster. Do his images look any better than my 1DX/5D3 shots on flickr? No, is the short answer. Not...at...all
p.13 #11 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Bones74 wrote:
but as an overall package the 5D3 is what thousands of Canon photogs were screaming for.
I was shooting alongside a guy last week who was using a D800 on a Sigmonster. Do his images look any better than my 1DX/5D3 shots on flickr? No, is the short answer. Not...at...all
p.13 #12 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Personally I couldn't care less about Obama's birth certificate or Area 51...
The real thing of importance to me regarding the a7R is image quality and noise level at low light levels, in particular under the stars as an astro-imaging body. I currently use two Canon 60D's in this capacity (one standard and one full spectrum modded) and they have been very good to me. With the shorter flange to sensor distance of mirrorless cameras I can use every Canon EF/EFS, Pentax, Minolta, Canon FD, Nikon, M42/T2, etc. lens on my shelf (w/ the appropriate glassless adapter) as well as a narrow filter wheel or something like the Metabones 0.71x reducer.
Now all I have to resolve is, "How good is Sony's a7R at noise mitigation?" Having never had any experience with Sony cameras this is, to me, the great unknown! Anyone care to offer an answer or guess? Or a comparison to some other existing camera with the same sensor for comparison...
p.13 #14 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
bwana999 wrote:
Now all I have to resolve is, "How good is Sony's a7R at noise mitigation?" Having never had any experience with Sony cameras this is, to me, the great unknown! Anyone care to offer an answer or guess? Or a comparison to some other existing camera with the same sensor for comparison...
Wouldn't the performance of the latest nikon bodies be a good approximation?
p.13 #17 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
Bones74 wrote:
Out in the field with an A7R/metabones attached to a 500mm f/4 = bad day, but with a 5D3 it would be a very good day
From where do you know this? Did I miss a review here - if so, please post a link.
I was shooting alongside a guy last week who was using a D800 on a Sigmonster. Do his images look any better than my 1DX/5D3 shots on flickr? No, is the short answer. Not...at...all
His certainly do if you crop the photos or print very large.
p.13 #18 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
retrofocus wrote:
From where do you know this? Did I miss a review here - if so, please post a link.
I think it can basically be taken as fact that a Sony NEX camera (and the A7r) with a metabones adapter will be much slower in AF. If you are out in the field, which I take to mean wildlife or sports with a 500mm lens, you will certainly have a better day with a good AF camera like the 5D3 or any 1D series.
p.13 #19 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
jctriguy wrote:
I think it can basically be taken as fact that a Sony NEX camera (and the A7r) with a metabones adapter will be much slower in AF. If you are out in the field, which I take to mean wildlife or sports with a 500mm lens, you will certainly have a better day with a good AF camera like the 5D3 or any 1D series.
Agree if this was related to AF performance and not to IQ.
That's just about all that a gazillion forum threads went on about ad infinitum. Then last year Canon gave everyone what they'd been screaming for since 2009. Once the AF was sorted suddenly the mp count and dynamic range was not good enough (Now it's the size!!!). Canon have certainly not made the advancements Sony and Nikon have in the sensor dept., but as an overall package the 5D3 is what thousands of Canon photogs were screaming for.
