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Archive 2013 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference

  
 
carstenw
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p.15 #1 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


It just occurred to me that your camera is named for your backyard mountain


Sep 11, 2013 at 03:52 AM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #2 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


as well as my GX680III and GW690III
Something draws me there..

Why don't you drop by btw?



Sep 11, 2013 at 03:56 AM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #3 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Here is an S5Pro shot that really gives me MFD feel:

http://www.3byk.org/imgposts/zf35_2/DSF4240.jpg



Sep 12, 2013 at 05:03 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #4 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Krosavcheg wrote:
as well as my GX680III and GW690III
Something draws me there..

Why don't you drop by btw?


I would *love* to. I have wanted to visit Japan for a long time, and meeting you (and Bif too) would be a lot of fun. I have a three-member family though, so every expense is multiplied by three, and no way I would get away with going alone, so it will take some time before I could afford it.



Sep 12, 2013 at 05:08 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #5 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Fascinating how that lens/camera combination is able to get that feeling, even with a crop sensor. Clearly there is more than just sensor-size and lens-size at work.


Sep 12, 2013 at 05:09 AM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #6 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


My thought exactly. Basically, my guess is that 35mm on APS-C is effectively 56mm equivalent (leaving working distance same). I remember Joakim's comparison of the 120mm on MFD to 45-50mm on 35mm, perhaps this could apply in reverse.
Hard to explain for me....I'm not very good with words. End up with fragmented sentences...sigh
First thing I saw was the sharpness fall-off, second was S5Pro dynamic range bringing a lot of detail in shadows up.

I understand. It is rather tough, but perhaps timing it well you might get a good deal.
I can rent a car as well and take you to my studio and some other derelict hunting stuff...



Sep 12, 2013 at 05:27 AM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #7 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Mescalamba: Allow me to shift the 1Ds MkIII conversation from Philip's thread.

Indeed, I am neither shooting sports nor weddings.
Max ISO I ever shot (more than once) is 1600. While I wanted a best "jack of all trades" camera, it is impossible to find.
Right now I am working more with staged shots and need a camera that produces best results in a controlled light environment, just as you pointed out.

Reason I acquired 5D MkIII was my erroneous belief that it would be a big step forward, instead it turned out to be another Canon "bells+whistles+cosmetics" - a marginal improvement flogged as a new model.
Colour is exactly as you describe and I find the shadow pushing impossible (banding + luma noise), and its metamerc failures are just as difficult to correct.

I won't be able to trade the above mentioned for an MFD, but the sell would potentially give me a little plus in a wallet towards an MFD purchase.

Note: any potential typos are courtesy of Apple.



Sep 12, 2013 at 08:29 PM
Mescalamba
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p.15 #8 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


I wonder how you knew, that I will look here..

All today Canons are one metameric failure. Funny enough, last generation was exact opposite. High ISO and video comes at high price.. Fortunately for Canon, most of their users dont care much about colors.

1Ds MK3 is pretty much "jack-of-all-trades". But banding is there, you have only about 1 eV of DR in shadows. Which is still more than previous generation, but not by much. Supposedly, its better on ISO 200 (ISO 160/320). Bit similar how some people shoot Sony A900 on ISO 320. Cant verify that as I have just ISO 100 pics (where banding is after about 1.5 eV push in LR). Banding is sorta fixable, just not great to have..

Its not perfect, but other high-mpix machines have other issues. A900 is bit noisy (well most Sony cameras simply wont do without bit of NR, except A99 on low ISO).
Only camera from Nikon that I found with "adequate" colors was D700. D3x could be nice, but it must be with custom made color profile.

Whats left, hm.. A99. Colors from most RAW converters are .. strange. It has rather high SMI (85/81), but I would say that it desperately needs good color profile. With that, it might be perfect alt camera. Thats if I could trust it. For some unexplainable reason I simply dont trust it will work or hold together for long. Strange as I have pretty much no reservations towards A900. Tho one thing that tests wont tell is that A99 is still bit noisier than one would expect.. (or I have simply different definition of "noise-less").

Except for A99, I simply dont even think about today cameras. Thanks to ISO wars (and maybe price-wars .. cheap FFs are cheap for reason today), we have whole lineups of cameras with colors that are ranging from "bit off" to "but hey, it looks like film". Some of them are close to be colorblind. Some users probably too..

Its really hard to find something with 20+ mpix, good colors, high DR, low SNR (at base ISO), reasonable low-pass filter. And ofc being FF camera.

If I list it with pros/cons

1Ds MK3:
pros - colors, resolution, low-pass, SNR, LiveView, build quality, AF
neg - DR + banding

A900:
pros - colors, resolution, build quality, DR, biggest brightest OVF in dSLRs
neutral - AF
neg - 12bit, low-pass (defeatable with deconvolution), no LV, noisy and noisy

A99:
pros - resolution, DR, 14-bit (well its Sony, it is pro ), full time LV, EVF + focus peaking
neutral - colors (need profiles), SNR (could be better, but probably not without killing colors), SLT tech, AF (sometimes ok, sometimes not)
neg - build quality (doesnt feel like 1Ds or D3 class), long term survivability of OLEDs, wobbly flash hot shoes, strange non-cooperation with flashes (maybe due being essentialy mirrorless?)

D700
pros - SNR, DR, build quality, LV (even tho Nikon way of LV.. ehm), AF
neutral - colors (but hey, still best of Nikon), low-pass (could be better)
neg - 12 mpix

5DMK2
pros - LV, resolution
neutral - colors (decent for cheaped out 1Ds MK3), SNR, build quality
neg - DR + banding, AF, sluggish FPS

D3x
pros - DR, SNR, LV, resolution, build quality, AF, OVF (best Nikon made I would say), low-pass (seriously, best low-pass ever used in dSLR)
neutrals - colors (needs profiling, after that better than any today Nikon)
negs - colors (cause they really need profiling)

and one special guest..

1D MK3
pros - DR, SNR (clean.. really clean), LV, build quality, AF, OVF, FPS (machine gun)
neutrals - low-pass is bit heavy handed (deconvolution or AMaZE demosaic or both)
negs - 10 mpix, APS-H

Rest is either too old and noisy/colorblind or new and colorblind plus mixed issues.. That said, if you nail exposure and dont want much shadow details, old 5Dc is probably better than most today Canons. Or shoot HDR, use CPLs, graduated NDs..


MFDBs are still mostly base ISO machines, with not so great SMI (tho Phase One does really decent job with profiling them and they supply those profiles with Capture One.. and those profiles can be used.. lets say in RawTherapee ). They have mostly pretty high DR, even low-res ones. Tho pushing shadows isnt that easy and whats clipped is clipped (cause its still CCD).

But ofc I would love to have Leica S. (no thats not voice of reason)

Btw. RT has build-in color profile for 5DMK3, you should try it. Dunno why you found output of RT soft. Just make sure demosaicing is either AMaZE or DCB with improvement. Then maybe flick on Deconvolution sharpening with some low radius and high amount. And if its not sharp then, you shot it wrong. (I leave impulse noise reduction enabled, but zeroed, usually .. if you dont have hot/stuck pixels or dont overshot deconvolution, its not needed). Would love to have regular camera that actually can use RawTherapee, cause its one amazing RAW converter.. (if you shoot base ISO, NR still isnt great).



Sep 12, 2013 at 09:37 PM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #9 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


I learned how to stalk my prey and predict it's next move by studing it under the wise guidance of Jimjam Yahaa sensei in the jungles of Rhodesia...8-[.......]

Very interesting comparison - I need to dedicate it a bit more time.
On the point of metameric failures, can we agree that SMI shifts are subject to personal appeal?
I.e, I probably wouldn't try to correct a P45+ result to match a 1Ds MkIII output.

Ed: RT output averaged a lot of small detail into a edge sharpened blur. Kind of same as Bibble did.
I need to give it more time I suppose, but I find ACR giving me more control.
Having said that, I do very little adjustment on actual RAW file and use linear curve to flatten the shot. Instead I use adjustment layers to give necessary effect.



Sep 12, 2013 at 10:41 PM
AhamB
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p.15 #10 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Krosavcheg wrote:
On the point of metameric failures, can we agree that SMI shifts are subject to personal appeal?


TheSuede already pointed that out a few times before -- MF backs aren't tuned for absolutely "correct" color but for things like good skin tones in studio lighting.



Sep 12, 2013 at 11:05 PM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #11 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


I remember that.
I am more interested in how that affects a rendition of palette unrelated to skin.



Sep 12, 2013 at 11:07 PM
telyt
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p.15 #12 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Mescalamba wrote:
... If I list it with pros/cons ...



Let's just say my DMR will be available to the person who is able to pry it from my cold, dead hands.



Sep 12, 2013 at 11:42 PM
carstenw
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p.15 #13 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


By random chance, I actually have a DMR in my possession, briefly (Alex bought it), and I am very keen to try it out (again), but in spite of having an R8 on hand, there is no lens. I keep looking at my 35/1.4R and 180/2R and thinking about converting them back, temporarily...


Sep 13, 2013 at 01:59 AM
RustyBug
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p.15 #14 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


telyt wrote
Let's just say my DMR will be available to the person who is able to pry it from my cold, dead hands.


What is it about the DMR that makes you feel so strongly about it ... even as technology marches on with the latest/greatest new techno marvel?



Sep 13, 2013 at 09:09 AM
telyt
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p.15 #15 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


RustyBug wrote:
What is it about the DMR that makes you feel so strongly about it ... even as technology marches on with the latest/greatest new techno marvel?


Color discrimination
Ability to pull detail out of shadows
no AA filter
R8 viewfinder
R APO lenses with auto diaphragm



Sep 13, 2013 at 09:19 AM
Mescalamba
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p.15 #16 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


telyt wrote:
Color discrimination
Ability to pull detail out of shadows
no AA filter
R8 viewfinder
R APO lenses with auto diaphragm


That plus it has colors even better than Kodak own things. And 16-bit, which allows same ways of PP as MFDBs.

Thought about including it in what I wrote, but if you dont shoot nature, that AA-lessness + 10 mpix can be problem, instead of benefit. But apart from that, it makes colors like nothing else.. (and I suspect much better than anything else, wonder what SMI it has, but I guess nobody will measure that). Plus batteries need recelling. And I guess it wouldnt be easy to repair if something went wrong.



Sep 13, 2013 at 10:05 AM
Mescalamba
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p.15 #17 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Krosavcheg wrote:
I learned how to stalk my prey and predict it's next move by studing it under the wise guidance of Jimjam Yahaa sensei in the jungles of Rhodesia...8-[.......]

Very interesting comparison - I need to dedicate it a bit more time.
On the point of metameric failures, can we agree that SMI shifts are subject to personal appeal?
I.e, I probably wouldn't try to correct a P45+ result to match a 1Ds MkIII output.

Ed: RT output averaged a lot of small detail into a edge sharpened blur. Kind of same as Bibble did.
I need to give it more time I suppose, but I
...Show more

Well, this guy did exactly that. http://www.pebbleplace.com/Personal/Start.html



Sep 13, 2013 at 10:10 AM
RustyBug
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p.15 #18 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


I can relate @ SLR/C on a few of those points.


Sep 13, 2013 at 10:10 AM
carstenw
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p.15 #19 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


IIRC the sensor is very similar to the M8, apart from the missing microlens topping and better IR filter, so you could look at that SMI. I guess the IR difference might make the comparison awkward though. The DR is not that great, but the photos still look great. More like slide film.


Sep 13, 2013 at 10:11 AM
Krosavcheg
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p.15 #20 · Digital Medium Format / 35mm equiv difference


Mescalamba: the MFD to SLR PP matching? (in regard to the link you posted)..


Sep 16, 2013 at 06:59 AM
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