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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.10 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
FlyPenFly wrote:
It will be a poorly implemented $2500 camera that nobody will buy thus showing everyone there's no market for it and nobody will try again.
I wish Ricoh was doing this, not Sony. I do not have any confidence that Sony will do this right. It will probably be 50000 megapixels and have horrible corners with stupid lenses like the Nex 18-200mm.
I don't share your pessimism. I think Sony has done a good job with NEX, so far. So they aren't perfect, but neither is Leica. And their sensors are superb. Anyway, as long as I can use my R and M lenses and it has a decent EVF, I'll jump for joy.
It will be a poorly implemented $2500 camera that nobody will buy thus showing everyone there's no market for it and nobody will try again.
I wish Ricoh was doing this, not Sony. I do not have any confidence that Sony will do this right. It will probably be 50000 megapixels and have horrible corners with stupid lenses like the Nex 18-200mm.
I don't share your pessimism. I think Sony has done a good job with NEX, so far. So they aren't perfect, but neither is Leica. And their sensors are superb. Anyway, as long as I can use my R and M lenses and it has a decent EVF, I'll jump for joy.
Jul 11, 2013 at 07:41 PM
p.10 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
telyt wrote:
For me the A99's weakness is adaptability. The Alpha system doesn't have top-end lenses in the focal lengths I use and the shorter flange-to-sensor distance of the NEX (up to now at least) means I can use a huge number of lenses on it. Put an A99-grade viewfinder and A99-grade sensor and A99-grade IBIS in a body with NEX-sized flange-to-sensor distance and I'll be very very interested. AF can flush itself down a toilet for all I care.
Totally agree. And make it play nice with M lenses.
For me the A99's weakness is adaptability. The Alpha system doesn't have top-end lenses in the focal lengths I use and the shorter flange-to-sensor distance of the NEX (up to now at least) means I can use a huge number of lenses on it. Put an A99-grade viewfinder and A99-grade sensor and A99-grade IBIS in a body with NEX-sized flange-to-sensor distance and I'll be very very interested. AF can flush itself down a toilet for all I care.
Totally agree. And make it play nice with M lenses.
Jul 11, 2013 at 08:35 PM
p.10 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
theSuede wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rumor is pure hoax. Even a rumor stating that the A99 is going to be replaced by a "no-mirror" A999 would be more believable.
An E-mount FF camera would necessitate either a permanent-mount adapter, OR another new lens series from Sony. I doubt they could pull that past the auditors. They can hardly justify their A-series financial losses as it is.
A full-size (body) mirrorless on the other hand is seemingly inevitable at some point in the future.
It's possible, of course, but it's also Sony. It seems that, with them, the crazier the rumor, the more likely it is to be true.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rumor is pure hoax. Even a rumor stating that the A99 is going to be replaced by a "no-mirror" A999 would be more believable.
An E-mount FF camera would necessitate either a permanent-mount adapter, OR another new lens series from Sony. I doubt they could pull that past the auditors. They can hardly justify their A-series financial losses as it is.
A full-size (body) mirrorless on the other hand is seemingly inevitable at some point in the future.
It's possible, of course, but it's also Sony. It seems that, with them, the crazier the rumor, the more likely it is to be true.
Jul 12, 2013 at 12:42 AM
p.10 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
theSuede wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rumor is pure hoax. Even a rumor stating that the A99 is going to be replaced by a "no-mirror" A999 would be more believable.
An E-mount FF camera would necessitate either a permanent-mount adapter, OR another new lens series from Sony. I doubt they could pull that past the auditors. They can hardly justify their A-series financial losses as it is.
A full-size (body) mirrorless on the other hand is seemingly inevitable at some point in the future.
Several rumors point to a hybrid mount mirrorless FF. What that means exactly it isn't clear .
My guesses:
1- E-mount body with a removable LA type adapter : E lenses in crop mode and A lenses with the LA-EA adapter in FF mode ? Seems to be an obvious and logical answer.
2- A body with slide-in mounts, like Ricoh GXR M module but without sensor ?..I don't see any advantage over the above solution.
3- A camera with collapsible A mount surrounding an E mount ?. Unnecessarily complicated, if possible, and prone to mechanical wear.
4- A body with movable back i.e. sensor/shutter assembly 'on rails' ?. Totally absurd IMO.
5- Nothing at all, just Sony's version of April fool's.? -- not that unlikely...
I wouldn't be surprised at all if that rumor is pure hoax. Even a rumor stating that the A99 is going to be replaced by a "no-mirror" A999 would be more believable.
An E-mount FF camera would necessitate either a permanent-mount adapter, OR another new lens series from Sony. I doubt they could pull that past the auditors. They can hardly justify their A-series financial losses as it is.
A full-size (body) mirrorless on the other hand is seemingly inevitable at some point in the future.
Several rumors point to a hybrid mount mirrorless FF. What that means exactly it isn't clear .
My guesses:
1- E-mount body with a removable LA type adapter : E lenses in crop mode and A lenses with the LA-EA adapter in FF mode ? Seems to be an obvious and logical answer.
2- A body with slide-in mounts, like Ricoh GXR M module but without sensor ?..I don't see any advantage over the above solution.
3- A camera with collapsible A mount surrounding an E mount ?. Unnecessarily complicated, if possible, and prone to mechanical wear.
4- A body with movable back i.e. sensor/shutter assembly 'on rails' ?. Totally absurd IMO.
5- Nothing at all, just Sony's version of April fool's.? -- not that unlikely...
Jul 12, 2013 at 02:34 AM
p.10 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I see nothing impossible or unlikely about a FF mirrorless. In the contrary it is the natural evolution of things. After an APS-C mirrorless, now it's time for a FF mirrorless. New mount, new lenses, new business opportunities. The body will be slimmer than DSLR but thicker than current crop sensor cameras. If Sony can sell a fixed lens FF for 3000$, which I never thought it would work, this one makes even more sense and would be very appealing for many buyers. If Sony doesn't do it, someone else eventually will. It's just a Leica M without the rangefinder.
Jul 12, 2013 at 03:09 AM
p.10 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I've gone from skeptical after seeing results with the VG900 to having a positive view about the possibility of fullframe mirrorless and the adaptability of M lenses.
Sony just introduced the largest backside illumination sensor to date with the RX100ii. The following article http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=42276 explains how BIL sensors help to eliminate the color crosstalk that is the plague for using RF lenses with existing sensors.
It remains to be seen whether such technology will be ready in time for a fullframe nex, but I feel it's a very positive step and will eventually be rolled out across all Sony imaging products for it's other advantages. Note that detail smearing is due to layers above the sensor/CFA and is more easily solved by removing/thinning the AA filters.
Sony just introduced the largest backside illumination sensor to date with the RX100ii. The following article http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=42276 explains how BIL sensors help to eliminate the color crosstalk that is the plague for using RF lenses with existing sensors.
It remains to be seen whether such technology will be ready in time for a fullframe nex, but I feel it's a very positive step and will eventually be rolled out across all Sony imaging products for it's other advantages. Note that detail smearing is due to layers above the sensor/CFA and is more easily solved by removing/thinning the AA filters.
Jul 12, 2013 at 03:36 AM
p.10 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Interesting article about the BIL sensors. In regards to the layers about the sensor, it seems that leica took the opposite approach, by exaggerating the micro lenses, thus enabling them to focus light for a larger range of incidence angles on the sensor (I saw someone recently post a link to an article on that here I believe). They of course combined this with a shallower "well" on the CMOS, which is where the BIL would come in. Sony could have a truly amazing camera if they released an FF mirrorless (with NEX-like register distance) with a BIL sensor and a modified microlens architecture. It would perform superbly with a wide range of lenses and would make it easier for Sony to design their own glass to match.
Jul 12, 2013 at 09:40 AM
p.10 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
BL sensors in the 36x24mm format is still way off... The largest format possible right now (with reasonable economy in production) is 1", 13x9mm. Each doubling of AREA is a doubling of losses, so making a sensor almost nine times larger than this in mm² area is hugely expensive. The yield would probably be in the single digit percents, meaning that at least 9/10 sensors would go straight to the waste bin in production, at least for the first few runs of production.
And even BL only removes about half of the problem (though this might be enough to satisfy most customers). The rest still has to be addressed with changes that gives worse performance for long lenses, and a more expensive assymetrical layer layout.
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...
Even the fairly large 5.95µm pixels of the D600 24MP FX camera are more than three times higher than they are wide, of course this causes a lot of problems. For Canon, it's even worse, since they have to use much lower mask resolutions, making all the transistors larger. This leaves even less room for the actual pixel. For Canon, BSI on at least APS makes huge sense at the moment, for Sony/Aptina/Toshiba that run 300mm wafers with higher resolutions - less so.
And even BL only removes about half of the problem (though this might be enough to satisfy most customers). The rest still has to be addressed with changes that gives worse performance for long lenses, and a more expensive assymetrical layer layout.
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...
Even the fairly large 5.95µm pixels of the D600 24MP FX camera are more than three times higher than they are wide, of course this causes a lot of problems. For Canon, it's even worse, since they have to use much lower mask resolutions, making all the transistors larger. This leaves even less room for the actual pixel. For Canon, BSI on at least APS makes huge sense at the moment, for Sony/Aptina/Toshiba that run 300mm wafers with higher resolutions - less so.
Jul 12, 2013 at 10:34 AM
p.10 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
theSuede wrote:
BL sensors in the 36x24mm format is still way off... The largest format possible right now (with reasonable economy in production) is 1", 13x9mm. Each doubling of AREA is a doubling of losses, so making a sensor almost nine times larger than this in mm² area is hugely expensive. The yield would probably be in the single digit percents, meaning that at least 9/10 sensors would go straight to the waste bin in production, at least for the first few runs of production.
And even BL only removes about half of the problem (though this might be enough to satisfy most...Show more →
What do you mean by this? The M9 used offset microlenses that trade-off some long lens performance for better wide performance.
However, CMOSIS in the M240 use aspherical microlenses to help focus the light down into the pixel well. If the deep pixel-well is eliminated and the area underneath the microlens is made photo-sensitive as in BIL, then it dramatically relaxes the agressiveness of the microlens design required to achieve good performance.
Many of the geometry constraints that RF camera makers contend with are analagous in camera phones where the goal is to maximise performance in the smallest possible size. High incidence is an obviously desirable property and BIL helps achieve it.
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...
BIL reduces the height of the pixel stack under the CFA. While getting rid of the AA filter above the CFA reduces the height above it (and removes another source of refraction due to mismatching materials).
BL sensors in the 36x24mm format is still way off... The largest format possible right now (with reasonable economy in production) is 1", 13x9mm. Each doubling of AREA is a doubling of losses, so making a sensor almost nine times larger than this in mm² area is hugely expensive. The yield would probably be in the single digit percents, meaning that at least 9/10 sensors would go straight to the waste bin in production, at least for the first few runs of production.
And even BL only removes about half of the problem (though this might be enough to satisfy most...Show more →
What do you mean by this? The M9 used offset microlenses that trade-off some long lens performance for better wide performance.
However, CMOSIS in the M240 use aspherical microlenses to help focus the light down into the pixel well. If the deep pixel-well is eliminated and the area underneath the microlens is made photo-sensitive as in BIL, then it dramatically relaxes the agressiveness of the microlens design required to achieve good performance.
Many of the geometry constraints that RF camera makers contend with are analagous in camera phones where the goal is to maximise performance in the smallest possible size. High incidence is an obviously desirable property and BIL helps achieve it.
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...
BIL reduces the height of the pixel stack under the CFA. While getting rid of the AA filter above the CFA reduces the height above it (and removes another source of refraction due to mismatching materials).
Jul 12, 2013 at 12:34 PM
p.10 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
So according to SAR, 2 new FF-E lenses from Zeiss will be announced with the camera, a zoom and a prime, and prices will be very expensive 
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:00 AM
p.10 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Drat. I was kind of hoping they would be bundled free as an incentive to purchase the camera.
edwardkaraa wrote:
So according to SAR, 2 new FF-E lenses from Zeiss will be announced with the camera, a zoom and a prime, and prices will be very expensive
edwardkaraa wrote:
So according to SAR, 2 new FF-E lenses from Zeiss will be announced with the camera, a zoom and a prime, and prices will be very expensive
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:23 AM
p.10 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
This is sounding like my "retirement (I'll never buy another) camera", oh wait, that was the 1ds2, sorry.
As long as my Metabones adapter works on the FF NEX I've got all the Zeiss goodness I need.javascript:void(0);
As long as my Metabones adapter works on the FF NEX I've got all the Zeiss goodness I need.javascript:void(0);
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:25 AM
p.10 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
you2 wrote:
Drat. I was kind of hoping they would be bundled free as an incentive to purchase the camera.
Good luck on that one. This is going to be an expensive proposition for anyone wanting both the new camera and one or both of the new lenses. But, then again, look at the cost of the Leica M240.
I would expect that most of us following this thread and in the Alt Forum will purchase the camera and at least to begin with use our existing Legacy MF lenses (providing Sony doesn't do anything to preclude this) and especially if the camera uses the E mount (allowing FF legacy to be used without mount changes).
Rich
Drat. I was kind of hoping they would be bundled free as an incentive to purchase the camera.
edwardkaraa wrote
So according to SAR, 2 new FF-E lenses from Zeiss will be announced with the camera, a zoom and a prime, and prices will be very expensiveGood luck on that one. This is going to be an expensive proposition for anyone wanting both the new camera and one or both of the new lenses. But, then again, look at the cost of the Leica M240.
I would expect that most of us following this thread and in the Alt Forum will purchase the camera and at least to begin with use our existing Legacy MF lenses (providing Sony doesn't do anything to preclude this) and especially if the camera uses the E mount (allowing FF legacy to be used without mount changes).
Rich
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:28 AM
p.10 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Fully agreed with Rich. The Zeiss prime would also be interesting, depending on the specifications (I would expect a Planar 50/1.4).
Jul 15, 2013 at 06:37 AM
p.10 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The admin on that SAR website is hinting in the some of the comment sections that there's a good chance that the FF NEX is going to have IBIS. I would normally be very skeptical but I think it's a possibility considering that Panasonic is rumored to be putting a 2 axis IBIS in the GX7. It would make sense in that Zeiss doesn't put image stabilization in their lenses.
Jul 15, 2013 at 08:31 AM
p.10 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
...that and the fact that Sony and Olympus are working together now might mean that the FF NEX will have the 5-axis IBIS from Oly... well, if it's going to be an expensive camera then it might as well have all the bells and whistles... sounding more and more like an alt-lovers dream (as long as you can get the IBIS to work without chipping, or chips are easily obtained and added/coded).
jonrock wrote:
The admin on that SAR website is hinting in the some of the comment sections that there's a good chance that the FF NEX is going to have IBIS. I would normally be very skeptical but I think it's a possibility considering that Panasonic is rumored to be putting a 2 axis IBIS in the GX7. It would make sense in that Zeiss doesn't put image stabilization in their lenses.
jonrock wrote:
The admin on that SAR website is hinting in the some of the comment sections that there's a good chance that the FF NEX is going to have IBIS. I would normally be very skeptical but I think it's a possibility considering that Panasonic is rumored to be putting a 2 axis IBIS in the GX7. It would make sense in that Zeiss doesn't put image stabilization in their lenses.
Jul 15, 2013 at 11:01 AM
p.10 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
......and the last sentence: Neither Canon or Nikon have it and Lecia is dead.
Hmmmm I've always been curious about those rangefinder type camerasjavascript:void(0);javascript:void(0);
Hmmmm I've always been curious about those rangefinder type camerasjavascript:void(0);javascript:void(0);
Jul 15, 2013 at 11:24 AM
p.10 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sure helps with the summer blues
Jul 15, 2013 at 02:37 PM
p.10 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
_julian_ wrote:
BIL reduces the height of the pixel stack under the CFA. While getting rid of the AA filter above the CFA reduces the height above it (and removes another source of refraction due to mismatching materials).
I think TheSuede is saying organic sensors give more hope than BIL CMOS because seemingly it's a bigger engineering challenge to achieve acceptable yields for the production of large (full-frame) BIL sensors. Perhaps organic sensors don't have so much problems with yield, but more with longevity (degradation from moisture).
Didn't we use to use the acronym BSI ('backside illuminated') instead of BIL btw?
theSuede wrote
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...I think TheSuede is saying organic sensors give more hope than BIL CMOS because seemingly it's a bigger engineering challenge to achieve acceptable yields for the production of large (full-frame) BIL sensors. Perhaps organic sensors don't have so much problems with yield, but more with longevity (degradation from moisture).
Didn't we use to use the acronym BSI ('backside illuminated') instead of BIL btw?
Jul 16, 2013 at 05:49 AM
p.10 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Latest rumors but only sr3: price below 3k and Olympus style 5 way ibis.
Jul 16, 2013 at 06:39 AM