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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.11 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
AhamB wrote:
BIL reduces the height of the pixel stack under the CFA. While getting rid of the AA filter above the CFA reduces the height above it (and removes another source of refraction due to mismatching materials).I think TheSuede is saying organic sensors give more hope than BIL CMOS because seemingly it's a bigger engineering challenge to achieve acceptable yields for the production of large (full-frame) BIL sensors. Perhaps organic sensors don't have so much problems with yield, but more with longevity (degradation from moisture).
Didn't we use to use the acronym BSI ('backside illuminated') instead of BIL btw?
The organic sensors announced a month ago as a result of joint cooperation between Fuji and Panasonic were also backside illumination sensors. They are shallower and should handle higher incidence lenses because the organic doped semiconductor can be made thinner (since it's more sensitive) and because the backs are directly exposed without having to funnel light through intermediate baffles and support circuitry. I've seen some patent designs which combine both BIL and organic that require no microlenses at all.
I'm very willing to concede that none of this technology is ready for prime time. However, I do feel that the convergence of the technologies may be quite positive for us rangefinder users (cf foveon).
_julian_ wrote
theSuede wrote
The hope for 'high incident angle" constructions LARGE sensors is in organic sensors. When the sealing and time-degradation problems of that are solved, we have cheap FF sensors with great angle efficiency, and very low top-stacks on sensors - and the height of the pixel stack is really the origin of the problem...Didn't we use to use the acronym BSI ('backside illuminated') instead of BIL btw?
The organic sensors announced a month ago as a result of joint cooperation between Fuji and Panasonic were also backside illumination sensors. They are shallower and should handle higher incidence lenses because the organic doped semiconductor can be made thinner (since it's more sensitive) and because the backs are directly exposed without having to funnel light through intermediate baffles and support circuitry. I've seen some patent designs which combine both BIL and organic that require no microlenses at all.
I'm very willing to concede that none of this technology is ready for prime time. However, I do feel that the convergence of the technologies may be quite positive for us rangefinder users (cf foveon).
Jul 16, 2013 at 06:52 AM
p.11 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
under the 3k and with IBIS... that would be awesome!
edwardkaraa wrote:
Latest rumors but only sr3: price below 3k and Olympus style 5 way ibis.
edwardkaraa wrote:
Latest rumors but only sr3: price below 3k and Olympus style 5 way ibis.
Jul 16, 2013 at 07:50 AM
p.11 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Don't you think sony rumors is an official Sony marketing website?
They have a great way to test some ideas and see what response they are getting...
Plus this guy has always been right...
They have a great way to test some ideas and see what response they are getting...
Plus this guy has always been right...
Jul 16, 2013 at 11:37 AM
p.11 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for a camera designed in 1950 that otherwise has color problems and doesn't do anything automatically and only costs $4000. But it does use modern lenses but there aren't enough of them in what are seemed to be useful focal ranges or image quality ranges."
Jul 16, 2013 at 12:52 PM
p.11 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.
We will all have to keep our fingers crossed regarding the features, design, and handling of the new camera and other features. I know that we are a relatively small community, but I suspect that the Sony may sell a fairly large number of these cameras to our members.
Rich
We will all have to keep our fingers crossed regarding the features, design, and handling of the new camera and other features. I know that we are a relatively small community, but I suspect that the Sony may sell a fairly large number of these cameras to our members.
Rich
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:00 PM
p.11 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Craig Gillette wrote:
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for...Show more →
agreed, though that russian lens + adapter only costs $150.
this why it seems wise to me to go for the high end first rather trying to sell in large volume. once the system matures it'll be easier to sell cameras to people that don't want to stick a $6000 german manual focus lens on the camera. meanwhile the 10 people in the world with $20,000 in manual focus lenses looking for a small liveview camera to put them on can help pay for the product development.
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for...Show more →
agreed, though that russian lens + adapter only costs $150.
this why it seems wise to me to go for the high end first rather trying to sell in large volume. once the system matures it'll be easier to sell cameras to people that don't want to stick a $6000 german manual focus lens on the camera. meanwhile the 10 people in the world with $20,000 in manual focus lenses looking for a small liveview camera to put them on can help pay for the product development.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:02 PM
p.11 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.
Rich
that would be a dream. it sounds entirely too much like exactly what i want for it to possibly be true. perhaps they will take the evf and tilt lcd off, or make it somehow bigger than a FF dslr...
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.
Rich
that would be a dream. it sounds entirely too much like exactly what i want for it to possibly be true. perhaps they will take the evf and tilt lcd off, or make it somehow bigger than a FF dslr...
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:05 PM
p.11 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
agreed, though that russian lens + adapter only costs $150.
this why it seems wise to me to go for the high end first rather trying to sell in large volume. once the system matures it'll be easier to sell cameras to people that don't want to stick a $6000 german manual focus lens on the camera. meanwhile the 10 people in the world with $20,000 in manual focus lenses looking for a small liveview camera to put them on can help pay for the product development.
I think that we may have more than 10 people in the Alt Forum alone that have more than $20,000 in manual focus lenses that are looking for this kind of small liveview camera.
Rich
Craig Gillette wrote
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for a camera designed in 1950 that otherwise has color problems and doesn't do anything automatically and only costs $4000. But it does use modern lenses but there aren't enough of them in what are seemed to be useful focal ranges or image quality ranges."this why it seems wise to me to go for the high end first rather trying to sell in large volume. once the system matures it'll be easier to sell cameras to people that don't want to stick a $6000 german manual focus lens on the camera. meanwhile the 10 people in the world with $20,000 in manual focus lenses looking for a small liveview camera to put them on can help pay for the product development.
I think that we may have more than 10 people in the Alt Forum alone that have more than $20,000 in manual focus lenses that are looking for this kind of small liveview camera.
Rich
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:06 PM
p.11 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
FF Nex at $3000 is going to be a huge success for Sony. No, it's not for the masses, but it doesn't have to be.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:13 PM
p.11 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Craig Gillette wrote:
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for...Show more →
Well, I would agree the volume market won't be happy, but they weren't the market buying FF DSLRs and RFs in the first place. The volume market is very price sensitive. While I'm sure many in that market would be willing to buy $2k FF cameras, it's been shown that number is not very significant. From what I've read, the D600 and 6D are selling below expectation. The volume market seems to be $1500 and below, and a $2k body just doesn't appeal to them. The majority of the FF market are not part of the volume market and are buying $3k bodies and $2k lenses. Most of the people buying D800 aren't thinking D600. Most of the people buying 5DIII aren't thinking 6D. It's just the way it is. The $2k FF buyers aren't buying L and Nikkor f/1.4 lenses.
It's far better for Sony to make a camera that caters to the main FF market, where there are plenty of Canon and Nikon FF users willing to pay for quality. It's gives them an opportunity to set a benchmark halo product. They can always follow up with a cheaper version later.
SAR is a SAR marketing site. Sony has a problem (well maybe several). The mirrorless market is growing slowly - it won't go quickly until the masses move off dslrs. The masses only recently moved to dslrs. The volume market isn't going to be tapped by introducing a camera that costs more than cameras like the D800 or A99. The mass market isn't going to be thrilled by, "It's a smaller camera that with an adapter (an adapter that perhaps costs $300 on it's own?) can use a Russian copy of a high end German lens first made for...Show more →
Well, I would agree the volume market won't be happy, but they weren't the market buying FF DSLRs and RFs in the first place. The volume market is very price sensitive. While I'm sure many in that market would be willing to buy $2k FF cameras, it's been shown that number is not very significant. From what I've read, the D600 and 6D are selling below expectation. The volume market seems to be $1500 and below, and a $2k body just doesn't appeal to them. The majority of the FF market are not part of the volume market and are buying $3k bodies and $2k lenses. Most of the people buying D800 aren't thinking D600. Most of the people buying 5DIII aren't thinking 6D. It's just the way it is. The $2k FF buyers aren't buying L and Nikkor f/1.4 lenses.
It's far better for Sony to make a camera that caters to the main FF market, where there are plenty of Canon and Nikon FF users willing to pay for quality. It's gives them an opportunity to set a benchmark halo product. They can always follow up with a cheaper version later.
Jul 16, 2013 at 01:18 PM
p.11 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
Richthat would be a dream. it sounds entirely too much like exactly what i want for it to possibly be true. perhaps they will take the evf and tilt lcd off, or make it somehow bigger than a FF dslr...
If they do away with the tilt screen, I'm blaming all the people who bought the RX1 for making Sony think it was acceptable not to have one.
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
naturephoto1 wrote
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.Rich
If they do away with the tilt screen, I'm blaming all the people who bought the RX1 for making Sony think it was acceptable not to have one.
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
Jul 16, 2013 at 02:33 PM
p.11 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
freaklikeme wrote:
Richthat would be a dream. it sounds entirely too much like exactly what i want for it to possibly be true. perhaps they will take the evf and tilt lcd off, or make it somehow bigger than a FF dslr...If they do away with the tilt screen, I'm blaming all the people who bought the RX1 for making Sony think it was acceptable not to have one.
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
Well if Sony is listening to the forums, the clamoring, and requests and suggestions more than Leica did for the M240, we may be in luck.
Rich
sebboh wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.Rich
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
Well if Sony is listening to the forums, the clamoring, and requests and suggestions more than Leica did for the M240, we may be in luck.
Rich
Jul 16, 2013 at 02:38 PM
p.11 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
freaklikeme wrote:
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
I'm trying not to get my hopes up... but the rumours sure are sweet!
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
I'm trying not to get my hopes up... but the rumours sure are sweet!
Jul 16, 2013 at 02:45 PM
p.11 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yes, it looks more and more like the perfect camera for me
Jul 16, 2013 at 03:58 PM
p.11 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
'the Sony may sell a fairly large number of these cameras to our members'
Like the RX1, you mean?
Probably more than few in IT here, who have heard of agile methodology; well, Sony is an agile company with a CEO who is out to shake things up. He would be wondering why they are trying to out-Canon C/N when they have the sensor technology, design acumen and the CZ partnership, and successful RX lines plus NEX. I would too.
The RX1 is at full production capacity. Their other (non-RX, NEX) lines are underwhelming performers though often very good cameras, that received poor market reception.
For $3000, expect an RX1 level of build quality, integration, sophistication, CZ lens quality - and the big ask with much doubt remaining - Leica M compatibility. If they get the last part right, that is pretty close to the final solution for quite a number of buyers, in my opinion.
Like the RX1, you mean?
Probably more than few in IT here, who have heard of agile methodology; well, Sony is an agile company with a CEO who is out to shake things up. He would be wondering why they are trying to out-Canon C/N when they have the sensor technology, design acumen and the CZ partnership, and successful RX lines plus NEX. I would too.
The RX1 is at full production capacity. Their other (non-RX, NEX) lines are underwhelming performers though often very good cameras, that received poor market reception.
For $3000, expect an RX1 level of build quality, integration, sophistication, CZ lens quality - and the big ask with much doubt remaining - Leica M compatibility. If they get the last part right, that is pretty close to the final solution for quite a number of buyers, in my opinion.
Jul 16, 2013 at 04:06 PM
p.11 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
'the Sony may sell a fairly large number of these cameras to our members'
Like the RX1, you mean?
Probably more than few in IT here, who have heard of agile methodology; well, Sony is an agile company with a CEO who is out to shake things up. He would be wondering why they are trying to out-Canon C/N when they have the sensor technology, design acumen and the CZ partnership, and successful RX lines plus NEX. I would too.
The RX1 is at full production capacity. Their other (non-RX, NEX) lines are underwhelming performers though often very good cameras, that received poor...Show more →
Well, for us rational people, it would make sense for Sony not to play in the DSLR sandbox where Canon and Nikon are the two big bullies, but if we go by the erratic rumors coming out of SARs in the last few months, then Sony might not have learned their lesson after getting beaten up a few times. Based on SARs, Sony is going back into that DSLR sandbox for a few more beat downs. It's not clear if NEX is a huge priority for them, given sales in mirrorless hasn't been spectacular. It's a budding new market and will take time to nurture. Are we sure Sony is that patient? Those of us who own mirrorless systems may just be really early adopters. I agree with the assessment that this seems almost too good to be true. A camera company who actually listens to the desires of users? I thought only Fuji did that... but X is not FF.
'the Sony may sell a fairly large number of these cameras to our members'
Like the RX1, you mean?
Probably more than few in IT here, who have heard of agile methodology; well, Sony is an agile company with a CEO who is out to shake things up. He would be wondering why they are trying to out-Canon C/N when they have the sensor technology, design acumen and the CZ partnership, and successful RX lines plus NEX. I would too.
The RX1 is at full production capacity. Their other (non-RX, NEX) lines are underwhelming performers though often very good cameras, that received poor...Show more →
Well, for us rational people, it would make sense for Sony not to play in the DSLR sandbox where Canon and Nikon are the two big bullies, but if we go by the erratic rumors coming out of SARs in the last few months, then Sony might not have learned their lesson after getting beaten up a few times. Based on SARs, Sony is going back into that DSLR sandbox for a few more beat downs. It's not clear if NEX is a huge priority for them, given sales in mirrorless hasn't been spectacular. It's a budding new market and will take time to nurture. Are we sure Sony is that patient? Those of us who own mirrorless systems may just be really early adopters. I agree with the assessment that this seems almost too good to be true. A camera company who actually listens to the desires of users? I thought only Fuji did that... but X is not FF.
Jul 16, 2013 at 04:49 PM
p.11 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
With the GX2 rumored to have a tilting EVF, that could make it's way through the whole mirrorless market if it is popular enough, it would be great if its in the NEX FF, though I doubt it.
Jul 16, 2013 at 05:14 PM
p.11 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I'd say tilting EVF is 100% certain in Nex FF. It's not a NEX or an Alpha without tilting EVF.
Jul 16, 2013 at 07:08 PM
p.11 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Taylor Sherman wrote:
I'd say tilting EVF is 100% certain in Nex FF. It's not a NEX or an Alpha without tilting EVF.
i think you mean tilting lcd.
I'd say tilting EVF is 100% certain in Nex FF. It's not a NEX or an Alpha without tilting EVF.
i think you mean tilting lcd.
Jul 16, 2013 at 07:48 PM
p.11 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Oops. right, thanks!
Jul 16, 2013 at 08:31 PM