This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.48 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Rich
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Rich
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:22 AM
p.48 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:35 AM
p.48 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Vern Dewit wrote:
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
Vern,
I think that Sony has thought this through at least fairly well. The price for the 28-70mm lens is as a Kit and I believe about $200 more purchased separately. I would not be surprised if the cameras are built on the structure/framework and similar quality to the RX-1. The 35mm Zeiss lens in the RX-1 and RX-1r I am sure are a major part of the cost of those cameras. Regardless, most of us in this forum have a lot of legacy MF glass to use with these cameras and hopefully the rumors are correct and they will work well with very small Leica M WA lenses. If so that will be great.
Rich
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
Vern,
I think that Sony has thought this through at least fairly well. The price for the 28-70mm lens is as a Kit and I believe about $200 more purchased separately. I would not be surprised if the cameras are built on the structure/framework and similar quality to the RX-1. The 35mm Zeiss lens in the RX-1 and RX-1r I am sure are a major part of the cost of those cameras. Regardless, most of us in this forum have a lot of legacy MF glass to use with these cameras and hopefully the rumors are correct and they will work well with very small Leica M WA lenses. If so that will be great.
Rich
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:44 AM
p.48 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass 
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:44 AM
p.48 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Vern Dewit wrote:
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
For me at least, if I go for one of these, I expect it to be a BYOL deal.
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
For me at least, if I go for one of these, I expect it to be a BYOL deal.
Oct 10, 2013 at 07:59 AM
p.48 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
3) eye tracking AF
By eye tracking AF, do they mean something similar to the eye controlled focusing in the Canon EOS 5?
3) eye tracking AF
By eye tracking AF, do they mean something similar to the eye controlled focusing in the Canon EOS 5?
Oct 10, 2013 at 08:06 AM
p.48 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Presumably, given Sony's recent investment in Olympus.
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Presumably, given Sony's recent investment in Olympus.
Oct 10, 2013 at 08:30 AM
p.48 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
carstenw wrote:
Presumably, given Sony's recent investment in Olympus.
That was my hope and assessment of the situation.
Rich
naturephoto1 wrote
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.That was my hope and assessment of the situation.
Rich
Oct 10, 2013 at 08:31 AM
p.48 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Olympus evf is from Seiko Epson:
http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2013/news_20130620.html
I don't know where Sony & Panasonic get theirs eg internal manufacturing vs third party... SAR has a posting that Fuji is using Sony evf also. So Sony might keep it in house to lower the cost...
http://global.epson.com/newsroom/2013/news_20130620.html
I don't know where Sony & Panasonic get theirs eg internal manufacturing vs third party... SAR has a posting that Fuji is using Sony evf also. So Sony might keep it in house to lower the cost...
Oct 10, 2013 at 08:49 AM
Emacs
Offline
Activity
[X]
Details
p.48 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Rich
There were rumors about 3.8Mp EVF. So I hope EVF will not be from Oly
Especially consider that one is just on par with old OLED resolution wise (2.4Mp). Sure, oly magnifies it more than Sony, but it is another question. You see, with higher resolution Sony can magnify rumored 3.8Mp it even more.
Tariq Gibran wrote
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.Rich
There were rumors about 3.8Mp EVF. So I hope EVF will not be from Oly
Especially consider that one is just on par with old OLED resolution wise (2.4Mp). Sure, oly magnifies it more than Sony, but it is another question. You see, with higher resolution Sony can magnify rumored 3.8Mp it even more.
Oct 10, 2013 at 08:55 AM
p.48 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Spyro P. wrote:
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass
Oct 10, 2013 at 09:14 AM
p.48 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.For me at least, if I go for one of these, I expect it to be a BYOL deal.
BYOL
Classic!
Vern Dewit wrote
SAR says the A7 + 28-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens will be under $2K? This makes me very nervous (way too cheap to be anywhere close to the RX1(r). I can't see the optics being very good at that price. And in typical Sony style, the good lens (24-70 f/4) isn't available at launch...I'm hopeful like everyone else but without great lenses, that 36mp A7r will be almost useless.
BYOL
Classic!
Oct 10, 2013 at 09:33 AM
p.48 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
Rich
Aren't we exaggerating about the importance of having stellar lenses on a 36mp FF sensor ?
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron league.
Tariq Gibran wrote
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.Rich
Aren't we exaggerating about the importance of having stellar lenses on a 36mp FF sensor ?
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron league.
Oct 10, 2013 at 09:36 AM
p.48 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
artur5 wrote:
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
RichAren't we exaggerating about the importance of having stellar lenses on a 36mp FF sensor ?
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron...Show more →
The "optics" I'm referring to in this post are the ones for the EVF, not the lenses. The NEX-7, for instance, had poor EVF optics with a very narrow angle of acceptable view. I had to have my eye centered pretty exact or the entire view was not sharp corner to corner. Looking through that finder literally gave me a headache due to eye strain over a period of time. That's not the case with the RX1 EVF optics.
naturephoto1 wrote
Tariq Gibran wrote
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.Rich
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron...Show more →
The "optics" I'm referring to in this post are the ones for the EVF, not the lenses.
The NEX-7, for instance, had poor EVF optics with a very narrow angle of acceptable view. I had to have my eye centered pretty exact or the entire view was not sharp corner to corner. Looking through that finder literally gave me a headache due to eye strain over a period of time. That's not the case with the RX1 EVF optics.Oct 10, 2013 at 10:48 AM
p.48 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
More confirmation of entirely new sensors in both cameras specifically designed to deal with short flange distance issues. Hmm.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-more-sources-confirm-a7-and-a7r-sensors-are-brand-new-and-warning-on-a-fake-a7r-image/
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-more-sources-confirm-a7-and-a7r-sensors-are-brand-new-and-warning-on-a-fake-a7r-image/
Oct 10, 2013 at 11:19 AM
p.48 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
More confirmation of entirely new sensors in both cameras specifically designed to deal with short flange distance issues. Hmm.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-more-sources-confirm-a7-and-a7r-sensors-are-brand-new-and-warning-on-a-fake-a7r-image/
Very hopeful about this.
Rich
More confirmation of entirely new sensors in both cameras specifically designed to deal with short flange distance issues. Hmm.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr5-more-sources-confirm-a7-and-a7r-sensors-are-brand-new-and-warning-on-a-fake-a7r-image/
Very hopeful about this.
Rich
Oct 10, 2013 at 11:36 AM
p.48 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Hopefully the EVF is like or similar to the one in the new Olympus EM-1.
RichAren't we exaggerating about the importance of having stellar lenses on a 36mp FF sensor ?
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron league.The "optics" I'm referring to in this post are the ones for the EVF, not the lenses. The NEX-7, for instance, had poor EVF optics with a very narrow angle of acceptable view. I had to have my eye centered pretty exact or the entire view was not sharp corner to corner. Looking through that finder literally gave me a headache due to eye strain over a period of time. That's not the case with the RX1 EVF optics.
Sorry Tariq, my mistake. I intended to quote another post, not yours. .
artur5 wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
Tariq Gibran wrote
I was expecting a larger hump in the middle for the EVF. Perhaps there is just more room between the top of the lens mount and the top profile of the camera so more was able to be hidden. Hopefully, the quality of the EVF and associated optics are at least as good as that in the RX1 EVF.Rich
I mean 36Mp. on FF equals 15Mp in APS-C and 9 Mp in MFT. We have nowadays plenty of APS-C and MFT sensors with way more Mpixels than that.
The only real issue with most good FF glass might be the extreme corners on wideangles or very fast primes full open, but 90% of the frame will be fine. I have no complaints using my current lenses on a 24Mp NEX-7 and they're a good bunch but not precisely playing in the APO-Summicron league.
The NEX-7, for instance, had poor EVF optics with a very narrow angle of acceptable view. I had to have my eye centered pretty exact or the entire view was not sharp corner to corner. Looking through that finder literally gave me a headache due to eye strain over a period of time. That's not the case with the RX1 EVF optics.Sorry Tariq, my mistake. I intended to quote another post, not yours. .
Oct 10, 2013 at 11:57 AM
p.48 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Spyro P. wrote:
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass
That's a big "if" though - sorry but I'm a realist! At the prices quoted for these cameras I think the dream of wide angle Leica lenses performing "well" on these cameras is a bit of a pipe dream. I know most people on here want me to be WRONG on this - and so do I.
You have to wonder why Sony would sell a camera that performs really well with Leica wides for 1/3 of the cost of a Leica. Most of us would easily pay $3-4k for body only, 36mp body like the rumored A7(r) that would work really well with WA lenses so why only charge a fraction of that?
Edited on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass
That's a big "if" though - sorry but I'm a realist!
At the prices quoted for these cameras I think the dream of wide angle Leica lenses performing "well" on these cameras is a bit of a pipe dream. I know most people on here want me to be WRONG on this - and so do I.You have to wonder why Sony would sell a camera that performs really well with Leica wides for 1/3 of the cost of a Leica. Most of us would easily pay $3-4k for body only, 36mp body like the rumored A7(r) that would work really well with WA lenses so why only charge a fraction of that?
Edited on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:41 PM · View previous versions
Oct 10, 2013 at 12:31 PM
p.48 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uscmatt99 wrote:
Can you please explain how you came to that conclusion, Matt?Just complete speculation and it really depends on the implementation of the AA filter on the 24mp camera. But my Nikon D600 (24mp sensor with AA filter) still has moire crop up when I'm using my ZF 100/2 and 35/1.4 at f/5.6, usually in urban landscape photos. I haven't used these lenses on a D800e to see how often moire occurs, but it doesn't seem to be as common as people originally feared it would be.
It was more complicated with the GXR, but the increased pixel density of a 36mp FX sensor vs. a 12mp DX sensor should also favor...Show more →
Thanks for the explanation, and I see where you're coming from. I can get moire on the a99 and any of the NEXs depending on the lens used and subject shot. I kind of take that as an industry move towards less effective AA filters, heading in the direction of losing it completely. What I don't understand is, given what causes moire, why more resolution would have an impact.
While the GXR experience makes me hesitant to pick up another AA-less camera, that's not the only reason I'm betting the a7 might be the better value. If the rumors are correct, then this is Sony's third implementation of the 24MP FF sensor. I'd be completely satisfied with the overall performance of the second implementation, particularly in low ISO through 3200 and dynamic range. As long as they haven't reduced that performance level, and I doubt they'll take a step backwards, and it plays well with my pre-ASPH Summilux-M 35, which is not the most demanding RF wide, then whatever complaints I have will be about the body itself.
But the first implementation of a 36MP sensor, first AA-less sensor on an interchangable lens camera, first high-end FF E-mount camera. That's a lot of firsts for any company to overcome without problems. I hope they knock it out of the park, but until I'm proven wrong, my money's on the cheaper one.
freaklikeme wrote
uscmatt99 wrote
Moire should be less of a problem on a 36mp AA-less sensor than on the GXR, and likely the 24mp variant of the FF NEX with a filter.It was more complicated with the GXR, but the increased pixel density of a 36mp FX sensor vs. a 12mp DX sensor should also favor...Show more →
Thanks for the explanation, and I see where you're coming from. I can get moire on the a99 and any of the NEXs depending on the lens used and subject shot. I kind of take that as an industry move towards less effective AA filters, heading in the direction of losing it completely. What I don't understand is, given what causes moire, why more resolution would have an impact.
While the GXR experience makes me hesitant to pick up another AA-less camera, that's not the only reason I'm betting the a7 might be the better value. If the rumors are correct, then this is Sony's third implementation of the 24MP FF sensor. I'd be completely satisfied with the overall performance of the second implementation, particularly in low ISO through 3200 and dynamic range. As long as they haven't reduced that performance level, and I doubt they'll take a step backwards, and it plays well with my pre-ASPH Summilux-M 35, which is not the most demanding RF wide, then whatever complaints I have will be about the body itself.
But the first implementation of a 36MP sensor, first AA-less sensor on an interchangable lens camera, first high-end FF E-mount camera. That's a lot of firsts for any company to overcome without problems. I hope they knock it out of the park, but until I'm proven wrong, my money's on the cheaper one.
Oct 10, 2013 at 12:36 PM
p.48 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Vern Dewit wrote:
That's a big "if" though - sorry but I'm a realist! At the prices quoted for these cameras I think the dream of wide angle Leica lenses performing "well" on these cameras is a bit of a pipe dream. I know most people on here want me to be WRONG on this - and so do I.
You have to wonder why Sony would sell a camera that performs really well with Leica wides for 1/3 of the cost of a Leica. Most of us would easily pay $3-4k for body only, 36mp body like the rumored A7(r) that...Show more →
Sony would not do this for Leica lenses, but they might need this to help with their own lens design. APS-C NEX lenses are already generally very large for the body, and the FF one's would be even larger unless Sony does something on the sensor side to help lens design.
While you might be willing to pay 3 to 4K for this camera if it works well with m lenses, leica users are rather a small user base. How many would Sony really sell at that price? Even out of that user base many would stick to the rangefinder mechanism and the touch and feel of Leica brand. If Sony banks on that group for most of its sales then they would probably have to price it like Leica as well. Their pricing is really going to be based on a broader customer base.
Spyro P. wrote
useless? not if it plays well with M lenses, in which case I know a few people who will tell sony and zeiss to shove all their AF glass At the prices quoted for these cameras I think the dream of wide angle Leica lenses performing "well" on these cameras is a bit of a pipe dream. I know most people on here want me to be WRONG on this - and so do I.You have to wonder why Sony would sell a camera that performs really well with Leica wides for 1/3 of the cost of a Leica. Most of us would easily pay $3-4k for body only, 36mp body like the rumored A7(r) that...Show more →
Sony would not do this for Leica lenses, but they might need this to help with their own lens design. APS-C NEX lenses are already generally very large for the body, and the FF one's would be even larger unless Sony does something on the sensor side to help lens design.
While you might be willing to pay 3 to 4K for this camera if it works well with m lenses, leica users are rather a small user base. How many would Sony really sell at that price? Even out of that user base many would stick to the rangefinder mechanism and the touch and feel of Leica brand. If Sony banks on that group for most of its sales then they would probably have to price it like Leica as well. Their pricing is really going to be based on a broader customer base.
Oct 10, 2013 at 01:07 PM