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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.46 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Spyro P. wrote:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-designimagine if sony spits out a slim retro-looking camera that accepts M lenses without problems and has a ton of manual focus aids and marked manual controls like fuji, or like, ahem ...other cameras.
And has the best FF sensor ever, priced at $2k-$2.5k
that'll be funny
Everyone would sell the EM-1's they just got to fund a sony.
_julian_ wrote
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens designhttp://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
And has the best FF sensor ever, priced at $2k-$2.5k
that'll be funny
Everyone would sell the EM-1's they just got to fund a sony.
Oct 08, 2013 at 12:45 PM
p.46 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
As I have always suspected, the corner problems would form a high priority of Sony's brief for this very long gestation project. Why would it not, when not only were they burned early in NEX days but they saw the efforts undertaken by Leica?
Leica has as much chance of besting Sony on sensor design as Sony does of making lenses better than Leica's. Their market share in the sector is surging.
Rich, do you have any qualms about using large lenses on small cameras? If indeed Leica went sub-optimal on RF lenses just to acommodate R telephotos that might be seen as a bad mistake, playing away from your strengths. A little like Sony trying to armour up the A7s to take a 24-70/2.8, which I sincerely hope they do not do.
As with the already started NEXs, there will be hardened equivalents of these A7 bodies along in due course if demand is there (tick), they can still be quite light and stronger, for longer larger lenses on adapters. That might be the shifting sensor camera line. E mount is starting to look like a genius marketing idea.
Spyro, I like the 'that'll' rather than 'that'd'
Leica has as much chance of besting Sony on sensor design as Sony does of making lenses better than Leica's. Their market share in the sector is surging.
Rich, do you have any qualms about using large lenses on small cameras? If indeed Leica went sub-optimal on RF lenses just to acommodate R telephotos that might be seen as a bad mistake, playing away from your strengths. A little like Sony trying to armour up the A7s to take a 24-70/2.8, which I sincerely hope they do not do.
As with the already started NEXs, there will be hardened equivalents of these A7 bodies along in due course if demand is there (tick), they can still be quite light and stronger, for longer larger lenses on adapters. That might be the shifting sensor camera line. E mount is starting to look like a genius marketing idea.
Spyro, I like the 'that'll' rather than 'that'd'
Oct 08, 2013 at 02:51 PM
p.46 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
joakim wrote:
I know everyone is talking about using Leica M lenses with the new FF NEX and I am also curious about that since I own a few but what about Canon EF mount lenses?
I am in the process of selling my Canon gear but just realized it might be worthwhile keeping one or two of my Zeiss ZE lenses to use with a NEX FF and a 36 MP sensor. Any opinions or experience on using EF lenses with a NEX, any disadvantages besides the size of DSLR lenses? Even if I am tired of the size of DSLR cameras...Show more →
I've been using ZEs on my 5N without any problems. I also use the Metabones adapter (updated to phase 2). According to them I'll need to update it to phase 3 to work with a FF Sony 7/7r.
John
I know everyone is talking about using Leica M lenses with the new FF NEX and I am also curious about that since I own a few but what about Canon EF mount lenses?
I am in the process of selling my Canon gear but just realized it might be worthwhile keeping one or two of my Zeiss ZE lenses to use with a NEX FF and a 36 MP sensor. Any opinions or experience on using EF lenses with a NEX, any disadvantages besides the size of DSLR lenses? Even if I am tired of the size of DSLR cameras...Show more →
I've been using ZEs on my 5N without any problems. I also use the Metabones adapter (updated to phase 2). According to them I'll need to update it to phase 3 to work with a FF Sony 7/7r.
John
Oct 08, 2013 at 03:35 PM
p.46 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
It actually does, in that it the m240 has the unusual, oblong microlenses. The question is, did Leica sacrifice a bit on the wide end for better tele performance, compared to the M9, which seems to be the case.Well, the unusual oblong microlenses do not seem to be as efficient as the offset microlenses of the M9 and GXR. Their advantage is that they work also with telephotos while with offset microlenses it seems 135mm and above will have some loss of performance in the corners. This is one of the reasons why I am not very interested in upgrading to an M240. I think Leica folks were over optimistic about their new micro lens design, but the good old M9 works much better with wides.Which in part may be why Leica kept the equivalent to the M9 in the ME.
Rich
TY for all this...which is news to me Its amazing that M240 wide performance is sacrificed for telephoto---over 135. That is ridiculous.
A camera good from 12 to 135 is better than one good from ? to 400.
what is the: ? 35?
edwardkaraa wrote
douglasf13 wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
Actually the M240 does not have optimized micro lenses for wide angles, probably because it needs to perform equally well with R telephotos. Compared to the M9, it is unfortunately several steps backwards and it relies heavily on in camera software correction. I guess if the Sony has any hint of offset micro lenses it will easily out do the M240.Rich
TY for all this...which is news to me
Its amazing that M240 wide performance is sacrificed for telephoto---over 135. That is ridiculous. A camera good from 12 to 135 is better than one good from ? to 400.
what is the: ? 35?
Oct 08, 2013 at 03:53 PM
p.46 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.
My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.
Oct 08, 2013 at 04:13 PM
p.46 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Gary Clennan wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.
meh, i can't imagine wanting to shoot at 15mm anyway. i'll be ecstatic if my g28 works though.
a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
douglasf13 wrote
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....meh, i can't imagine wanting to shoot at 15mm anyway. i'll be ecstatic if my g28 works though.
a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
Oct 08, 2013 at 04:27 PM
p.46 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.meh, i can't imagine wanting to shoot at 15mm anyway. i'll be ecstatic if my g28 works though.
a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
or the zm18
or how is the pen42/1.2 in FF mode
Gary Clennan wrote
douglasf13 wrote
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
or the zm18
or how is the pen42/1.2 in FF mode
Oct 08, 2013 at 04:39 PM
p.46 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
_julian_ wrote:
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens design
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
I think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens design
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
I think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.
Oct 08, 2013 at 06:40 PM
p.46 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yep. I'm primarily interested in how the 21SEM and 28 'Cron work with it. Anything wider than that is gravy.
I don't need absolutely perfect corners from the 28, but I'll be really happy if I don't need to use cornerfix. It's part of my process but that doesn't mean it's not a PITA.
I don't need absolutely perfect corners from the 28, but I'll be really happy if I don't need to use cornerfix. It's part of my process but that doesn't mean it's not a PITA.
Oct 08, 2013 at 07:06 PM
p.46 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.meh, i can't imagine wanting to shoot at 15mm anyway. i'll be ecstatic if my g28 works though.
a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
You can't imagine but I sure can! Your 28 should work great though. The camera would be pretty crummy if it doesn't play well with that lens. Actually, I would be supremely dissapointed if the 21mm FL doesn't work. The camera would be useless to me if that were the case...
Gary Clennan wrote
douglasf13 wrote
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....a more interesting question would how the 21mm lenses work.
You can't imagine but I sure can!
Your 28 should work great though. The camera would be pretty crummy if it doesn't play well with that lens. Actually, I would be supremely dissapointed if the 21mm FL doesn't work. The camera would be useless to me if that were the case...Oct 08, 2013 at 08:12 PM
p.46 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
corposant wrote:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-designI think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.
I tend to agree with this.... I really don't think Sony have any interest (or maybe little) in designing this camera to work well with RF wides. However, I think it is a great thing to at least see some progress being made with this type of camera design.
_julian_ wrote
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens designhttp://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
I tend to agree with this.... I really don't think Sony have any interest (or maybe little) in designing this camera to work well with RF wides. However, I think it is a great thing to at least see some progress being made with this type of camera design.
Oct 08, 2013 at 08:16 PM
p.46 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Gary Clennan wrote:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-designI think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.I tend to agree with this.... I really don't think Sony have any interest (or maybe little) in designing this camera to work well with RF wides. However, I think it is a great thing to at least see some progress being made with this type of camera design.
Gary,
It may be in Sony's best interest to make a Sensor capable of this because this could be of great value in the design of their own lenses that could be made smaller to fit a smaller camera. We will all have to wait and see and keep our fingers crossed.
Rich
corposant wrote
_julian_ wrote
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens designhttp://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
Gary,
It may be in Sony's best interest to make a Sensor capable of this because this could be of great value in the design of their own lenses that could be made smaller to fit a smaller camera. We will all have to wait and see and keep our fingers crossed.
Rich
Oct 08, 2013 at 08:21 PM
p.46 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Gary Clennan wrote:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-designI think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.I tend to agree with this.... I really don't think Sony have any interest (or maybe little) in designing this camera to work well with RF wides. However, I think it is a great thing to at least see some progress being made with this type of camera design.
If sony makes a camera that shoots leica glass better than a leica body, they will get alot of attention, especially from blogging photographers. These are many of the best lenses available for their FL. It would be the smartest thing to make a high end body work well with them. Millions worth of advertising, really.
Edited on Oct 08, 2013 at 08:29 PM · View previous versions
corposant wrote
_julian_ wrote
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens designhttp://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
If sony makes a camera that shoots leica glass better than a leica body, they will get alot of attention, especially from blogging photographers. These are many of the best lenses available for their FL. It would be the smartest thing to make a high end body work well with them. Millions worth of advertising, really.
Edited on Oct 08, 2013 at 08:29 PM · View previous versions
Oct 08, 2013 at 08:26 PM
p.46 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Gary Clennan wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.
Fairly sharp into the corners with which sensor? If you're talking aps-c performance, it's an entirely different ballgame than FF.
douglasf13 wrote
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....Fairly sharp into the corners with which sensor? If you're talking aps-c performance, it's an entirely different ballgame than FF.
Oct 08, 2013 at 08:28 PM
p.46 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
I think many would be ok with fixing the color casts, now that C1 and LR allow it. It's the smearing that'll be the deal breaker.My CV15 is actually "fairly" sharp into the corners when stopped down past f/5.6. I just can't stand dealing with the color casts though. When removing the color cast(s), there are often other detrimental effects which remain - and need to be dealt with.Fairly sharp into the corners with which sensor? If you're talking aps-c performance, it's an entirely different ballgame than FF.
Hey Douglas - I'm talking FF, M240. For whatever reason, it seems to perform better on the M240 (except for the stupid color cast) than the M9.
PS - don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see Sony come out with something special this time...
Gary Clennan wrote
douglasf13 wrote
Gary Clennan wrote
FWIW - the CV15 has terrible color cast on the M240. It has the same (to a lesser degree) issues on the NEX-5N. Interesting developments but I will wait this one out to see how these rumored camera's perform in real life - if any of these rumors are indeed true....Hey Douglas - I'm talking FF, M240. For whatever reason, it seems to perform better on the M240 (except for the stupid color cast) than the M9.
PS - don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see Sony come out with something special this time...
Oct 08, 2013 at 08:52 PM
p.46 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uhoh7 wrote:
naturephoto1 wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
douglasf13 wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
Actually the M240 does not have optimized micro lenses for wide angles, probably because it needs to perform equally well with R telephotos. Compared to the M9, it is unfortunately several steps backwards and it relies heavily on in camera software correction. I guess if the Sony has any hint of offset micro lenses it will easily out do the M240.Rich
Its amazing that M240 wide performance is sacrificed for telephoto---over 135. That is ridiculous. A camera good from 12 to 135 is better than one good from ? to 400.
what is the: ? 35?
To be honest, the M9 isn't perfect neither.it works very well with ZM 25 and 18 without needing correction profiles in camera, with occasional Italian flags, but not too often. In fact I would say the ZM 25 works normally 95% of the time and the ZM 18 about 85% of the time. With in camera profiles, they both work great. But there are lenses like the CV 15 or the ZM C 21 that produce very strong Italian flags and vignetting.
The M240 on the other hand produces no Italian flag, but rather a purple color shift in the corners. It seems to be quite dramatic with correction profiles off, like I shoot with the M9. However with profiles on the effect is still there but much more reduced. Don't own the M240 so maybe Gary can tell us how wide a lens he can shoot without camera profiles and without having to use Cornerfix. With the M9 18mm should be safe, while with the M240 I would guess around 24mm/28mm.
Oct 08, 2013 at 09:00 PM
p.46 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I agree with you here.
Sometimes I visit the SAR site and laugh at all the rubbish that is posted there to boost traffic and affiliate sales on sites like Ebay and Amazon. Sometimes I wonder whether the publisher of the site even has a photography hobby or much experience with cameras based on the silly things that get posted as fact only to be scrubbed later and blamed on "cut-and-paste error".
Sony has not shown that it is prepared to be a photographer's company or develop a full featured camera *system* that anybody but gadget-of-the-month folks can depend on. With a few exception they have shown that they are very finicky in chasing after electronic gimmicks and P&S up-graders at the expense of stability and building confidence in a trusted system of compatible bodies, lenses and accessories that span beginner to accomplished professional.
Think about it: Think of all the accolades that SONY received when it came out with the A900 and then consider what they did with their Alpha A-mount full frame legacy. They basically threw it all away with years of no new products and finally came out with the ridiculously overpriced, over-gimmicked and dead-end A99.
What about their APS-C cameras? They started off good with the A100/A3xx and A700 and then quickly released new rehashed models with fewer features and awful grips "designed for women's hands" (no joke, a real quote from their designers). Then no Sony DSLR had video or main-sensor live-view even though all their competitors did.
There was the more than four year drought for the A700 replacement. Eventually they released the SLT models with poor low light performance, fake RAW mode, poor video field of view, small buffers and again removed basic features like tethering that were in their earlier A700. The main feature of 24mpx has now been destroyed by Nikon lowest end D3200 and the Nikon D7100 has a higher final resolution than the A77, much better lens compatibility & 3rd party support, autofocus, metering, flash control and "pro" ergonomic features. The Canon 70D even eclipsed SONY SLT by showing that a DSLR with traditional design can still autofocus better than the A77 when shooting video.
I'm not saying SONY is not innovative or that they have not accomplished great engineering marvels with some NEX models and the RX series. They have. But the non-interchangeable lens cameras like the RX series do not make a camera "system". They are one-off self-contained cameras and are designed to be disposable. The miniaturized NEX series have been more successful than the Alpha models but they still are not a replacement for a traditional DSLR given the poor tracking and continuous autofocus, are still hobbled by a childlike menu system, confusing deluge of models with minor differences, complete lack of marketing (at least in the USA), limited distribution (can't find them in BestBuy anymore or Costco) and a lack of lenses and accessories.
I wanted to recommend NEX to a young family friend who is getting interested in photography after seeing the results of the A700 with fast lenses and external flash but I realized that NEX lacked the availability of reasonably priced fast lenses and flashes and could not focus fast enough for action. The youngster was probably better off with the D3200 - at least any lenses or accessories they purchase could grow with them all the way to a flagship D800 or whatever they might advance to in the future. But NEX? It is more appropriate because of its diminutive size but it is basically a gamble with no assured future.
What I'm saying is that SONY has never been willing to fully invest in a stable and reliable photography system in the same way that the other industry leaders have. As a result there are very few lenses, accessories and support available for either of their interchangeable lens systems (A-Mount/E-Mount). When designing lenses for their E-Mount they have generally chosen very conservative and uninspiring specifications to take to market. For the FF A-mount they have ignored large swaths of focal lengths. For example no current 24mm or 28mm primes. No affordable 35mm, 50mm or 85mm at all even though Canon and Nikon offer affordable 35mm f/2.0 and f/1.8 50mm and 85mm lenses. Many of the Sony lenses are rebadged Minolta designs dating from the eighties. The one unique A-mount lens, the Reflex 500mm f/8 with AF was discontinued quietly. Basically Sony Alpha A-mount is a dying platform.
Compare the lens lineup for the much newer Fuji X system to that of the much older NEX. Which lens lineup inspires photographic lust? For example, on E-Mount, regardless of focal length, there are no native lenses faster than f/1.8 and most are at f/2.8 or even f/4. Fuji on the other hand launched its cameras with f/1.4 & f/2.0 lenses for the historic (equivalent) standard and wide focal lengths. Even Samsung has a greater investment and road map for fast lenses than Sony despite their very poor placing in the market.
But enough of the ranting that I wanted to get out of my system and back to FF NEX.
What the FF NEX offers to SONY is another chance to redefine themselves and their NEX brand as a real photographer's system. Nobody else offers a 35mm FF compact camera system with autofocus. It could raise the stature of Sony NEX to be mentioned in the same breath as Leica. Street cred etc... It would allow SONY to abandon the failing A-mount platform for a full spectrum E-mount that supports both compact cameras and DSLR form factors in both APS-C and FF formats. A complete photography system for beginners to pros.
But this will only happen if the marketing and business managers that screwed up the Alpha system are not allowed to also screw up this transition. In particular it would require that they hit the FF NEX and NEX transition cameras out of the park. It requires meeting and exceeding the HYPE that has been built up on forums like this and on SAR.
Unfortunately I don't see that happening. Maybe I'm a pessimist but the dribble of information that I've read tells me that the #1 wish of photographers looking at NEX -- to replace the functionality and versatility of DSLRs will not come true because of the following:
1. SLOW FOCUSING : Mirrorless is not an advantage over reflex DSLRs if you're stuck with mediocre focusing. This is a deal breaker for anyone who shoots candid, event or action shots and expects to replace their DSLR with any sort of NEX camera (especially with the future DSLR form factor models). I just do not believe the HYPE that says SONY has made breakthroughs with main-sensor phase detection that allows mirrorless cameras to match DSLR dedicated focusing sensors. Even the old supposedly conservative stalwart Canon in the 70D has a higher performance main-sensor AF system than SONY does on it's most recent mirrorless cameras with phase detection sensors. I don't believe that SONY has a better main-sensor focusing system than Canon in the 70D. I think the poor focus performance of future NEX FF and APS-C models will shock everyone.
2. LENSES. LENSES. LENSES! : I personally don't care about the Zeiss label on a lens and I doubt the majority of folks that buy millions of Nikon and Canon DSLRs and lenses every year are moved by the availability of a small set of two Zeiss branded Sony lenses. In any case, Zeiss already makes its expensive lenses for Canon, Nikon and Fuji X systems anyway. The bread and butter photographers will be looking for cost effective replacements for the standard lenses available for DSLRs and they won't find most of them for the NEX FF or even the APS-C NEXs. Sure many of this forum are more interested in adapting legacy lenses to the NEX FF. But you know what, 95% of DSLR purchasers are not going to do this and don't care about the adapting capability. I used to use adapted M42 lenses a lot but discovered that once I purchased a native equivalent my desire to do so pretty much waned. Personally I would jump ship to NEX and NEX FF if Sony announced that it had commissioned Sigma to produce a full line of fully native and compatible lenses for their mount. I'm talking about moderately compact FF lenses covering 12mm to 135mm and larger lenses covering 135mm to 500mm. I'm talking about fully native compact versions of all their EX-class/ART/SPORT lenses. But that won't happen and SONY has not shown that it is a serious optics company either so I wouldn't my breath on Sony coming out with a similar range either. If you're waiting for SONY and Zeiss to recreate the Contax N Digital in the NEX I think you'll be waiting for a very long time.
3. BAD BEAN COUNTERS : This comes down to removing features and capabilities as part of some desire to appease the bean counters and pointy head business folks at the expense of the interest of photographers and photography. Like screwing up the grip and removing mirror lockup and tethering on the 3nd generation of Alpha DSLRs or the stupid new Sony incompatible standard hotshoe on the A99 and newer NEX models that cause lock-in to Sony flash accessories. I can imagine the IBIS feature being banned from the NEX cameras in order to protect A-mount Alpha sales, to avoid paying royalties to Minolta or because it conflicts with the optical stabilization business model for Sony NEX lenses. I mean who knows what existing camera features would be killed in order to fill a silly checkbox or corporate mandate. Maybe they will make it more difficult to use legacy lenses or 3rd party NEX FF Lenses. I don't know and neither does anyone else at SAR.
4. Marketing / Advertising & Retail Presence : Even if all the above conditions are taken care of, Sony still has to let photographers and people wanting to invest into a camera *system* know that it has a product for them. I believe that since the Alpha range was launched, Sony has not aired a single TV or radio advertisement for it in the United States. I find that incredible. Even the established leaders like Nikon and Canon air TV adverts for their cameras but not the #3 company, why is that? No wonder most people with DSLRs or in the market to buy one have no idea that Sony makes DSLRs or other cameras capable of DSLR "quality". Also SONY has a bad reputation with retailers due to their obnoxious policies, requirements and practices and many of them have simply stopped selling SONY larger format cameras. For example, BestBuy is no longer selling or promoting Sony DSLRs or NEX cameras where I live and is giving huge floor space to Samsung instead. Costco sells zero Sony DSLRs or NEX camera while stocking and extensively promoting the midrange of Canon and Nikon.
So in summary I look forward to the NEX FF but I'm in no way expecting it to fulfill the promise of a DSLR replacement or meet many of the fevered expectations discussed on this forum and others. As long as the NEX is seen as a "second system" for weight/size reduction, it will never become a real DSLR replacement or fulfill the business goal of getting Millions of sales and putting major black into Sony's bath of red ink.
corposant wrote:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-designI think some FMers will have some coal in their stockings on 10/19. There's no way all of this could be true.
Sometimes I visit the SAR site and laugh at all the rubbish that is posted there to boost traffic and affiliate sales on sites like Ebay and Amazon. Sometimes I wonder whether the publisher of the site even has a photography hobby or much experience with cameras based on the silly things that get posted as fact only to be scrubbed later and blamed on "cut-and-paste error".
Sony has not shown that it is prepared to be a photographer's company or develop a full featured camera *system* that anybody but gadget-of-the-month folks can depend on. With a few exception they have shown that they are very finicky in chasing after electronic gimmicks and P&S up-graders at the expense of stability and building confidence in a trusted system of compatible bodies, lenses and accessories that span beginner to accomplished professional.
Think about it: Think of all the accolades that SONY received when it came out with the A900 and then consider what they did with their Alpha A-mount full frame legacy. They basically threw it all away with years of no new products and finally came out with the ridiculously overpriced, over-gimmicked and dead-end A99.
What about their APS-C cameras? They started off good with the A100/A3xx and A700 and then quickly released new rehashed models with fewer features and awful grips "designed for women's hands" (no joke, a real quote from their designers). Then no Sony DSLR had video or main-sensor live-view even though all their competitors did.
There was the more than four year drought for the A700 replacement. Eventually they released the SLT models with poor low light performance, fake RAW mode, poor video field of view, small buffers and again removed basic features like tethering that were in their earlier A700. The main feature of 24mpx has now been destroyed by Nikon lowest end D3200 and the Nikon D7100 has a higher final resolution than the A77, much better lens compatibility & 3rd party support, autofocus, metering, flash control and "pro" ergonomic features. The Canon 70D even eclipsed SONY SLT by showing that a DSLR with traditional design can still autofocus better than the A77 when shooting video.
I'm not saying SONY is not innovative or that they have not accomplished great engineering marvels with some NEX models and the RX series. They have. But the non-interchangeable lens cameras like the RX series do not make a camera "system". They are one-off self-contained cameras and are designed to be disposable. The miniaturized NEX series have been more successful than the Alpha models but they still are not a replacement for a traditional DSLR given the poor tracking and continuous autofocus, are still hobbled by a childlike menu system, confusing deluge of models with minor differences, complete lack of marketing (at least in the USA), limited distribution (can't find them in BestBuy anymore or Costco) and a lack of lenses and accessories.
I wanted to recommend NEX to a young family friend who is getting interested in photography after seeing the results of the A700 with fast lenses and external flash but I realized that NEX lacked the availability of reasonably priced fast lenses and flashes and could not focus fast enough for action. The youngster was probably better off with the D3200 - at least any lenses or accessories they purchase could grow with them all the way to a flagship D800 or whatever they might advance to in the future. But NEX? It is more appropriate because of its diminutive size but it is basically a gamble with no assured future.
What I'm saying is that SONY has never been willing to fully invest in a stable and reliable photography system in the same way that the other industry leaders have. As a result there are very few lenses, accessories and support available for either of their interchangeable lens systems (A-Mount/E-Mount). When designing lenses for their E-Mount they have generally chosen very conservative and uninspiring specifications to take to market. For the FF A-mount they have ignored large swaths of focal lengths. For example no current 24mm or 28mm primes. No affordable 35mm, 50mm or 85mm at all even though Canon and Nikon offer affordable 35mm f/2.0 and f/1.8 50mm and 85mm lenses. Many of the Sony lenses are rebadged Minolta designs dating from the eighties. The one unique A-mount lens, the Reflex 500mm f/8 with AF was discontinued quietly. Basically Sony Alpha A-mount is a dying platform.
Compare the lens lineup for the much newer Fuji X system to that of the much older NEX. Which lens lineup inspires photographic lust? For example, on E-Mount, regardless of focal length, there are no native lenses faster than f/1.8 and most are at f/2.8 or even f/4. Fuji on the other hand launched its cameras with f/1.4 & f/2.0 lenses for the historic (equivalent) standard and wide focal lengths. Even Samsung has a greater investment and road map for fast lenses than Sony despite their very poor placing in the market.
But enough of the ranting that I wanted to get out of my system and back to FF NEX.
What the FF NEX offers to SONY is another chance to redefine themselves and their NEX brand as a real photographer's system. Nobody else offers a 35mm FF compact camera system with autofocus. It could raise the stature of Sony NEX to be mentioned in the same breath as Leica. Street cred etc... It would allow SONY to abandon the failing A-mount platform for a full spectrum E-mount that supports both compact cameras and DSLR form factors in both APS-C and FF formats. A complete photography system for beginners to pros.
But this will only happen if the marketing and business managers that screwed up the Alpha system are not allowed to also screw up this transition. In particular it would require that they hit the FF NEX and NEX transition cameras out of the park. It requires meeting and exceeding the HYPE that has been built up on forums like this and on SAR.
Unfortunately I don't see that happening. Maybe I'm a pessimist but the dribble of information that I've read tells me that the #1 wish of photographers looking at NEX -- to replace the functionality and versatility of DSLRs will not come true because of the following:
1. SLOW FOCUSING : Mirrorless is not an advantage over reflex DSLRs if you're stuck with mediocre focusing. This is a deal breaker for anyone who shoots candid, event or action shots and expects to replace their DSLR with any sort of NEX camera (especially with the future DSLR form factor models). I just do not believe the HYPE that says SONY has made breakthroughs with main-sensor phase detection that allows mirrorless cameras to match DSLR dedicated focusing sensors. Even the old supposedly conservative stalwart Canon in the 70D has a higher performance main-sensor AF system than SONY does on it's most recent mirrorless cameras with phase detection sensors. I don't believe that SONY has a better main-sensor focusing system than Canon in the 70D. I think the poor focus performance of future NEX FF and APS-C models will shock everyone.
2. LENSES. LENSES. LENSES! : I personally don't care about the Zeiss label on a lens and I doubt the majority of folks that buy millions of Nikon and Canon DSLRs and lenses every year are moved by the availability of a small set of two Zeiss branded Sony lenses. In any case, Zeiss already makes its expensive lenses for Canon, Nikon and Fuji X systems anyway. The bread and butter photographers will be looking for cost effective replacements for the standard lenses available for DSLRs and they won't find most of them for the NEX FF or even the APS-C NEXs. Sure many of this forum are more interested in adapting legacy lenses to the NEX FF. But you know what, 95% of DSLR purchasers are not going to do this and don't care about the adapting capability. I used to use adapted M42 lenses a lot but discovered that once I purchased a native equivalent my desire to do so pretty much waned. Personally I would jump ship to NEX and NEX FF if Sony announced that it had commissioned Sigma to produce a full line of fully native and compatible lenses for their mount. I'm talking about moderately compact FF lenses covering 12mm to 135mm and larger lenses covering 135mm to 500mm. I'm talking about fully native compact versions of all their EX-class/ART/SPORT lenses. But that won't happen and SONY has not shown that it is a serious optics company either so I wouldn't my breath on Sony coming out with a similar range either. If you're waiting for SONY and Zeiss to recreate the Contax N Digital in the NEX I think you'll be waiting for a very long time.
3. BAD BEAN COUNTERS : This comes down to removing features and capabilities as part of some desire to appease the bean counters and pointy head business folks at the expense of the interest of photographers and photography. Like screwing up the grip and removing mirror lockup and tethering on the 3nd generation of Alpha DSLRs or the stupid new Sony incompatible standard hotshoe on the A99 and newer NEX models that cause lock-in to Sony flash accessories. I can imagine the IBIS feature being banned from the NEX cameras in order to protect A-mount Alpha sales, to avoid paying royalties to Minolta or because it conflicts with the optical stabilization business model for Sony NEX lenses. I mean who knows what existing camera features would be killed in order to fill a silly checkbox or corporate mandate. Maybe they will make it more difficult to use legacy lenses or 3rd party NEX FF Lenses. I don't know and neither does anyone else at SAR.
4. Marketing / Advertising & Retail Presence : Even if all the above conditions are taken care of, Sony still has to let photographers and people wanting to invest into a camera *system* know that it has a product for them. I believe that since the Alpha range was launched, Sony has not aired a single TV or radio advertisement for it in the United States. I find that incredible. Even the established leaders like Nikon and Canon air TV adverts for their cameras but not the #3 company, why is that? No wonder most people with DSLRs or in the market to buy one have no idea that Sony makes DSLRs or other cameras capable of DSLR "quality". Also SONY has a bad reputation with retailers due to their obnoxious policies, requirements and practices and many of them have simply stopped selling SONY larger format cameras. For example, BestBuy is no longer selling or promoting Sony DSLRs or NEX cameras where I live and is giving huge floor space to Samsung instead. Costco sells zero Sony DSLRs or NEX camera while stocking and extensively promoting the midrange of Canon and Nikon.
So in summary I look forward to the NEX FF but I'm in no way expecting it to fulfill the promise of a DSLR replacement or meet many of the fevered expectations discussed on this forum and others. As long as the NEX is seen as a "second system" for weight/size reduction, it will never become a real DSLR replacement or fulfill the business goal of getting Millions of sales and putting major black into Sony's bath of red ink.
corposant wrote:
_julian_ wrote
(SR4) New Sony A7/A7r sensor have optimized microlens designhttp://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-new-sony-a7a7r-sensor-have-optimized-microlens-design
Oct 08, 2013 at 09:56 PM
p.46 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
It actually does, in that it the m240 has the unusual, oblong microlenses. The question is, did Leica sacrifice a bit on the wide end for better tele performance, compared to the M9, which seems to be the case.Well, the unusual oblong microlenses do not seem to be as efficient as the offset microlenses of the M9 and GXR. Their advantage is that they work also with telephotos while with offset microlenses it seems 135mm and above will have some loss of performance in the corners. This is one of the reasons why I am not very interested in upgrading to an M240. I think Leica folks were over optimistic about their new micro lens design, but the good old M9 works much better with wides.Which in part may be why Leica kept the equivalent to the M9 in the ME.
RichTY for all this...which is news to me Its amazing that M240 wide performance is sacrificed for telephoto---over 135. That is ridiculous.
A camera good from 12 to 135 is better than one good from ? to 400.
what is the: ? 35?To be honest, the M9 isn't perfect neither.it works very well with ZM 25 and 18 without needing correction profiles in camera, with occasional Italian flags, but not too often. In fact I would say the ZM 25 works normally 95% of the time and the ZM 18 about 85% of the time. With in camera profiles, they both work great. But there are lenses like the CV 15 or the ZM C 21 that produce very strong Italian flags and vignetting.
The M240 on the other hand produces no Italian flag, but rather a purple color shift in the...Show more →
21mm is the limit on the M240 when using a coded Leica lens. Even then, in very rare cases <3% there is a slight color cast present. With the CV15, it is always pretty bad - with or without profiles. I tried many different codes and they really don't help much at all with the CV15. Here is an SOOC DNG sample:
uhoh7 wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
douglasf13 wrote
edwardkaraa wrote
Actually the M240 does not have optimized micro lenses for wide angles, probably because it needs to perform equally well with R telephotos. Compared to the M9, it is unfortunately several steps backwards and it relies heavily on in camera software correction. I guess if the Sony has any hint of offset micro lenses it will easily out do the M240.Rich
Its amazing that M240 wide performance is sacrificed for telephoto---over 135. That is ridiculous. A camera good from 12 to 135 is better than one good from ? to 400.
what is the: ? 35?
The M240 on the other hand produces no Italian flag, but rather a purple color shift in the...Show more →
21mm is the limit on the M240 when using a coded Leica lens. Even then, in very rare cases <3% there is a slight color cast present. With the CV15, it is always pretty bad - with or without profiles. I tried many different codes and they really don't help much at all with the CV15. Here is an SOOC DNG sample:
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Oct 08, 2013 at 10:10 PM
p.46 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
That's a very nice shot Gary. Too bad it's spoiled by the corner cast.
One more question, a bit OT, did you ever try shooting with the camera correction turned off? If yes, how do you rate the performance?
One more question, a bit OT, did you ever try shooting with the camera correction turned off? If yes, how do you rate the performance?
Oct 08, 2013 at 10:29 PM
p.46 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Hope,
That's a well written and well thought through post, but when I finished reading it I kind of shrugged my shoulders and said to myself "who cares." I'm not trying to replace my DSLR with a FF Nex. I actually like my Nikon DSLRs and I'm sure a lot of Canon folk feel the same way about their DSLRs. I'll keep using my Nikon DSLRs for sports and birding (actually, just sports since I don't do birding.) I can accomplish everything else with a FF Nex, because I'm already accomplishing everything else with my Nex 7.
If Sony does a good job with the FF Nex, even if there are initially a limited number of system lenses, I'll be really happy with them. They will have accomplished what a lot of us have wanted and no other camera company has addressed to date. I haven't seen anyone who bought an RX1 complaining that it won't do sports.
That's a well written and well thought through post, but when I finished reading it I kind of shrugged my shoulders and said to myself "who cares." I'm not trying to replace my DSLR with a FF Nex. I actually like my Nikon DSLRs and I'm sure a lot of Canon folk feel the same way about their DSLRs. I'll keep using my Nikon DSLRs for sports and birding (actually, just sports since I don't do birding.)
I can accomplish everything else with a FF Nex, because I'm already accomplishing everything else with my Nex 7. If Sony does a good job with the FF Nex, even if there are initially a limited number of system lenses, I'll be really happy with them. They will have accomplished what a lot of us have wanted and no other camera company has addressed to date. I haven't seen anyone who bought an RX1 complaining that it won't do sports.
Oct 08, 2013 at 10:54 PM