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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.16 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
10X the price is a lot, but still it may be worth it IMO. I have worked a lot with the Canon 18 MP APS-C sensor in the past, and now with the Sony 16 MP APS-C and 36 MP FF sensors. The 16 MP Sony sensor is worth 2X the Canon to me, because of the dynamic range. Another 5X factor over that seems reasonable to get the same performance in FF and the same pixel density, given that I utilize the resolution.
For the 35/2.8 lens, I hope it will not be 10X the price of the Canon 22 mm. If it is almost as small, and it performs as well as or better than the current 35 mm distagon lenses stopped down, it will be very attractive as a landscape lens for hiking.
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
10X the price is a lot, but still it may be worth it IMO. I have worked a lot with the Canon 18 MP APS-C sensor in the past, and now with the Sony 16 MP APS-C and 36 MP FF sensors. The 16 MP Sony sensor is worth 2X the Canon to me, because of the dynamic range. Another 5X factor over that seems reasonable to get the same performance in FF and the same pixel density, given that I utilize the resolution.
For the 35/2.8 lens, I hope it will not be 10X the price of the Canon 22 mm. If it is almost as small, and it performs as well as or better than the current 35 mm distagon lenses stopped down, it will be very attractive as a landscape lens for hiking.
Jul 31, 2013 at 03:19 PM
p.16 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
FWIW, that great little EOS-M 22/2 lens is equivalent to a 35.6mm, f3.2 lens on a FF NEX. I wish that Sony made a similar lens for the aps-c NEX lineup, in terms of size, speed and performance.
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
FWIW, that great little EOS-M 22/2 lens is equivalent to a 35.6mm, f3.2 lens on a FF NEX. I wish that Sony made a similar lens for the aps-c NEX lineup, in terms of size, speed and performance.
Jul 31, 2013 at 04:47 PM
p.16 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
ok ok, 1/3 stop faster lens, 2.3 stop better sensor, 10x the price? 
Jul 31, 2013 at 04:57 PM
p.16 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
At f2.8 you could expect it to have great performance, slow lenses being so much better in IQ. I very often shoot the RX1 at f2.8, very often f2 takes out needed OOF outlines of significance to the shot, albeit very stylishly. Zeiss is converting FF photographers to slow lenses, lol.
Here is one comment which might resonate, and indicates why (M and other) manual lenses need to be catered for:
'i dont really care what Af lenses Sony or Zeiss release. as long as the FF-Nex works with wide angle manual lenses(like m-mount, contax-g) i will buy it, otherwise i`ll skip. there is no way Af lenses will match the size and feel of manual lenses and i totally hate the fly by wire tech all mirrorless lenses have.'
FBW manual is a great way to ween shooters off manual shooting. Agree re the (EOS) M lens.
Here is one comment which might resonate, and indicates why (M and other) manual lenses need to be catered for:
'i dont really care what Af lenses Sony or Zeiss release. as long as the FF-Nex works with wide angle manual lenses(like m-mount, contax-g) i will buy it, otherwise i`ll skip. there is no way Af lenses will match the size and feel of manual lenses and i totally hate the fly by wire tech all mirrorless lenses have.'
FBW manual is a great way to ween shooters off manual shooting. Agree re the (EOS) M lens.
Jul 31, 2013 at 05:00 PM
p.16 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
At f2.8 you could expect it to have great performance, slow lenses being so much better in IQ. I very often shoot the RX1 at f2.8, very often f2 takes out needed OOF outlines of significance to the shot, albeit very stylishly. Zeiss is converting FF photographers to slow lenses, lol.
Here is one comment which might resonate, and indicates why (M and other) manual lenses need to be catered for:
'i dont really care what Af lenses Sony or Zeiss release. as long as the FF-Nex works with wide angle manual lenses(like m-mount, contax-g) i will buy it, otherwise i`ll...Show more →
There will still be a sea of Contax C/Y, Leica R, Zuikos, m42, etc., that should work fine on the FF NEX.
At f2.8 you could expect it to have great performance, slow lenses being so much better in IQ. I very often shoot the RX1 at f2.8, very often f2 takes out needed OOF outlines of significance to the shot, albeit very stylishly. Zeiss is converting FF photographers to slow lenses, lol.
Here is one comment which might resonate, and indicates why (M and other) manual lenses need to be catered for:
'i dont really care what Af lenses Sony or Zeiss release. as long as the FF-Nex works with wide angle manual lenses(like m-mount, contax-g) i will buy it, otherwise i`ll...Show more →
There will still be a sea of Contax C/Y, Leica R, Zuikos, m42, etc., that should work fine on the FF NEX.
Jul 31, 2013 at 05:07 PM
p.16 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
ok ok, 1/3 stop faster lens, 2.3 stop better sensor, 10x the price?
i'd certainly pay 10x the price just for a FF sensor in NEX-7 body. the current NEX-7 is certainly worth the 3x as much that it costs to me just for handling and image quality improvements over the canon. as far as the lens goes, i'd have to see it to decide. depends on size build, image quality, and character. chances are i'll have no interest in an AF zeiss 35/2.8 because of the lenses i already own (40 cron and rx1). the canon 22/2 looks very good but not exciting in any way optically (maybe i just haven't seen enough photos with it).
ok ok, 1/3 stop faster lens, 2.3 stop better sensor, 10x the price?
i'd certainly pay 10x the price just for a FF sensor in NEX-7 body. the current NEX-7 is certainly worth the 3x as much that it costs to me just for handling and image quality improvements over the canon. as far as the lens goes, i'd have to see it to decide. depends on size build, image quality, and character. chances are i'll have no interest in an AF zeiss 35/2.8 because of the lenses i already own (40 cron and rx1). the canon 22/2 looks very good but not exciting in any way optically (maybe i just haven't seen enough photos with it).
Jul 31, 2013 at 05:28 PM
p.16 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
i'd certainly pay 10x the price just for a FF sensor in NEX-7 body. the current NEX-7 is certainly worth the 3x as much that it costs to me just for handling and image quality improvements over the canon. as far as the lens goes, i'd have to see it to decide. depends on size build, image quality, and character. chances are i'll have no interest in an AF zeiss 35/2.8 because of the lenses i already own (40 cron and rx1). the canon 22/2 looks very good but not exciting in any way optically (maybe i just haven't seen...Show more →
Hopefully, Sony doesn't read this and think the NEX-7 body is perfect. It's far from it. I am unwilling to pay a single penny for a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body. It needs to be more solid and have a better viewfinder. I am betting a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body will sell far below what a great FF NEX could sell. The primary buyers of a FF NEX camera will come from the pool of Canon and Nikon FF owners. We're used to more rugged bodies. I would like to see this camera with 15-20% more heft, more structural rigidity, and weatherproofing. $3k is a lot to pay for a toy body.
Small and light... yes.
Smallest possible with lots of compromises... NO!
For those who want super small FF, be happy with the RX1.
i'd certainly pay 10x the price just for a FF sensor in NEX-7 body. the current NEX-7 is certainly worth the 3x as much that it costs to me just for handling and image quality improvements over the canon. as far as the lens goes, i'd have to see it to decide. depends on size build, image quality, and character. chances are i'll have no interest in an AF zeiss 35/2.8 because of the lenses i already own (40 cron and rx1). the canon 22/2 looks very good but not exciting in any way optically (maybe i just haven't seen...Show more →
Hopefully, Sony doesn't read this and think the NEX-7 body is perfect. It's far from it. I am unwilling to pay a single penny for a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body. It needs to be more solid and have a better viewfinder. I am betting a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body will sell far below what a great FF NEX could sell. The primary buyers of a FF NEX camera will come from the pool of Canon and Nikon FF owners. We're used to more rugged bodies. I would like to see this camera with 15-20% more heft, more structural rigidity, and weatherproofing. $3k is a lot to pay for a toy body.
Small and light... yes.
Smallest possible with lots of compromises... NO!
For those who want super small FF, be happy with the RX1.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:47 PM
p.16 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sflxn wrote:
Hopefully, Sony doesn't read this and think the NEX-7 body is perfect. It's far from it. I am unwilling to pay a single penny for a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body. It needs to be more solid and have a better viewfinder. I am betting a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body will sell far below what a great FF NEX could sell. The primary buyers of a FF NEX camera will come from the pool of Canon and Nikon FF owners. We're used to more rugged bodies. I would like to see this camera with 15-20% more heft,...Show more →
I might agree about the weathersealing, but there's nothing about the NEX-7 that seems flimsy to me. Are there any failures reported?
sebboh wrote
i'd certainly pay 10x the price just for a FF sensor in NEX-7 body. the current NEX-7 is certainly worth the 3x as much that it costs to me just for handling and image quality improvements over the canon. as far as the lens goes, i'd have to see it to decide. depends on size build, image quality, and character. chances are i'll have no interest in an AF zeiss 35/2.8 because of the lenses i already own (40 cron and rx1). the canon 22/2 looks very good but not exciting in any way optically (maybe i just haven't seen enough photos with it).I might agree about the weathersealing, but there's nothing about the NEX-7 that seems flimsy to me. Are there any failures reported?
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:59 PM
p.16 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Only build issue on the NEX-7 is the grip peeling. Shot mine for a year, I'm not soft on my gear and it held up extremely well.
It's a given that the FF NEX will have the improved finder from the A99 & NEX-6.
I'd simply wnat 2 things:
1. A proper tripod mount. None of this uber-skinny NEX mounts that preclude using a larger lens on an adapter that lacks a tripod mount.
2. A dedicated remote release port. The NEX-6/RX1 hotshoe release is better than no release, but please let the FF NEX use a standard Alpha release.
It's a given that the FF NEX will have the improved finder from the A99 & NEX-6.
I'd simply wnat 2 things:
1. A proper tripod mount. None of this uber-skinny NEX mounts that preclude using a larger lens on an adapter that lacks a tripod mount.
2. A dedicated remote release port. The NEX-6/RX1 hotshoe release is better than no release, but please let the FF NEX use a standard Alpha release.
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:09 PM
p.16 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sflxn wrote:
Hopefully, Sony doesn't read this and think the NEX-7 body is perfect. It's far from it. I am unwilling to pay a single penny for a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body. It needs to be more solid and have a better viewfinder. I am betting a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body will sell far below what a great FF NEX could sell. The primary buyers of a FF NEX camera will come from the pool of Canon and Nikon FF owners. We're used to more rugged bodies. I would like to see this camera with 15-20% more heft,...Show more →
the rx1 doesn't take other lenses. i sure don't want any extra bulk for the FF nex, why not just use a dslr? what exactly don't you like about the NEX-7 build? i'm as rough with it as i've been with my pro-dslrs. the only issues i've had is the rubber coming loose (obviously this is something they better address but doesn't really have anything to do with structural rigidity) and brassing (this is a cosmetic issue that happens to all metal cameras and people actually pay extra for on leicas). the only weakness i really see in the NEX-7 build is that the flip up lcd could be snapped off. this is true of all flip up lcds though. i certainly don't want them switching to fixed lcd. weather proofing would be nice, but not if it means a lot bigger.
Hopefully, Sony doesn't read this and think the NEX-7 body is perfect. It's far from it. I am unwilling to pay a single penny for a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body. It needs to be more solid and have a better viewfinder. I am betting a FF sensor in a NEX-7 body will sell far below what a great FF NEX could sell. The primary buyers of a FF NEX camera will come from the pool of Canon and Nikon FF owners. We're used to more rugged bodies. I would like to see this camera with 15-20% more heft,...Show more →
the rx1 doesn't take other lenses. i sure don't want any extra bulk for the FF nex, why not just use a dslr? what exactly don't you like about the NEX-7 build? i'm as rough with it as i've been with my pro-dslrs. the only issues i've had is the rubber coming loose (obviously this is something they better address but doesn't really have anything to do with structural rigidity) and brassing (this is a cosmetic issue that happens to all metal cameras and people actually pay extra for on leicas). the only weakness i really see in the NEX-7 build is that the flip up lcd could be snapped off. this is true of all flip up lcds though. i certainly don't want them switching to fixed lcd. weather proofing would be nice, but not if it means a lot bigger.
Jul 31, 2013 at 08:22 PM
p.16 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
FBW manual is a great way to ween shooters off manual shooting.
Or turn people against your lenses.
FBW manual is a great way to ween shooters off manual shooting.
Or turn people against your lenses.
Jul 31, 2013 at 10:15 PM
p.16 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
brassing (this is a cosmetic issue that happens to all metal cameras and people actually pay extra for on leicas).
people might pay for a service to get their camera brassed but I have not ever seen an antiqued Leica or one with actual brassing sell for more than one in strictly better condition. even in Leica world condition is king.
anyway, I am disappointed to hear how much the FF nex is expected to cost. I dont think it should cost more than the a99
brassing (this is a cosmetic issue that happens to all metal cameras and people actually pay extra for on leicas).
people might pay for a service to get their camera brassed but I have not ever seen an antiqued Leica or one with actual brassing sell for more than one in strictly better condition. even in Leica world condition is king.
anyway, I am disappointed to hear how much the FF nex is expected to cost. I dont think it should cost more than the a99
Jul 31, 2013 at 10:45 PM
p.16 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
redisburning wrote:
people might pay for a service to get their camera brassed but I have not ever seen an antiqued Leica or one with actual brassing sell for more than one in strictly better condition. even in Leica world condition is king.
anyway, I am disappointed to hear how much the FF nex is expected to cost. I dont think it should cost more than the a99
it sounds like it will cost the same as the a99, but it's all just rumors so far.
here's a link supporting my brassed leicas commanding a premium statement: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/09/most-beautiful-camera-ever.html
sebboh wrote
brassing (this is a cosmetic issue that happens to all metal cameras and people actually pay extra for on leicas).anyway, I am disappointed to hear how much the FF nex is expected to cost. I dont think it should cost more than the a99
it sounds like it will cost the same as the a99, but it's all just rumors so far.
here's a link supporting my brassed leicas commanding a premium statement: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/09/most-beautiful-camera-ever.html
Jul 31, 2013 at 11:45 PM
p.16 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
There's a new thread on SAR, calling for information about the performance of alt lenses on the VG900 in anticipation of the release of the NEX FF.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/preparing-for-the-nex-ff-let-me-know-how-third-party-lenses-work-on-the-vg900
I believe the gist of the issues with RF lenses have been mentioned. SAR is a fairly high-profile site so it's always possible that Sony marketing execs might note any opinions expressed there. It's certain that community feedback at least got the NEX7 record button issue fixed.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/preparing-for-the-nex-ff-let-me-know-how-third-party-lenses-work-on-the-vg900
I believe the gist of the issues with RF lenses have been mentioned. SAR is a fairly high-profile site so it's always possible that Sony marketing execs might note any opinions expressed there. It's certain that community feedback at least got the NEX7 record button issue fixed.
Aug 01, 2013 at 04:07 AM
p.16 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The LCD is exactly the biggest weakness of the NEX-7. The glass should be gorilla glass. The tilt mechanism is fragile. I'd like the two scrollers to have more meaningful clicks and resistance. I would assume an even more rigid body and weather sealing would demand a slightly bigger build. That's fine with me. GPS and wifi should also add to a larger body. For the price that is rumored, I'd like to see a no compromise camera. Those of us who still own FF DSLRs want to have an easy decision to switching. After all, we are the target market. If there are compromises, the decision to buy one gets a lot harder. I really think the market for the "world's smallest" so and so is extremely small.
My current kit is a very sensible one. NEX for most shooting, GR for street shooting, D800 + 1 lens for portraits. It's quite a light kit, and the D800 can handle anything. One FF DSLR and one FF lens is not that big of a problem for me right now. It's weathersealed, will survive almost anything, has a gps on it, and has great resolution and DR. I think Sony can make the perfect FF NEX without it being the size and weight of a Leica. I think it would probably be smaller than a Fuji X Pro 1. I simply do not need a "world's smallest" blah, blah claim that comes with compromises.
My current kit is a very sensible one. NEX for most shooting, GR for street shooting, D800 + 1 lens for portraits. It's quite a light kit, and the D800 can handle anything. One FF DSLR and one FF lens is not that big of a problem for me right now. It's weathersealed, will survive almost anything, has a gps on it, and has great resolution and DR. I think Sony can make the perfect FF NEX without it being the size and weight of a Leica. I think it would probably be smaller than a Fuji X Pro 1. I simply do not need a "world's smallest" blah, blah claim that comes with compromises.
Aug 01, 2013 at 06:27 AM
p.16 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Regarding the M mount lens compatibility with the sensor: I have been looking at the narrow E mount and how the FF sensor in the VG900 has the corners covered by the mount, it is almost a certainty that rear elements of lenses have to be inside the mount to avoid vignetting, so the sensor of the Nex FF has to have good performance with oblique rays. There is no other way. So that gives some hope for M lenses.
Aug 01, 2013 at 11:53 AM
p.16 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
Regarding the M mount lens compatibility with the sensor: I have been looking at the narrow E mount and how the FF sensor in the VG900 has the corners covered by the mount, it is almost a certainty that rear elements of lenses have to be inside the mount to avoid vignetting, so the sensor of the Nex FF has to have good performance with oblique rays. There is no other way. So that gives some hope for M lenses.
Those pics are a bit of an optical illusion, in that the sensor isn't quite as close to the mount as it looks. The mount is slightly larger than Leica M, Nikon F, etc., but it is closer to the sensor, and that's the problem that theSuede has been getting at. More tele centric lenses, like SLR lenses will be ok, but that is also going to lead to longer, more SLR+adapter sized native lenses, unless Sony does something drastic to the sensor. I think the rumor of the native 35/2.8 indicates that short lenses aren't going to be easy on the FF NEX.
Regarding the M mount lens compatibility with the sensor: I have been looking at the narrow E mount and how the FF sensor in the VG900 has the corners covered by the mount, it is almost a certainty that rear elements of lenses have to be inside the mount to avoid vignetting, so the sensor of the Nex FF has to have good performance with oblique rays. There is no other way. So that gives some hope for M lenses.
Those pics are a bit of an optical illusion, in that the sensor isn't quite as close to the mount as it looks. The mount is slightly larger than Leica M, Nikon F, etc., but it is closer to the sensor, and that's the problem that theSuede has been getting at. More tele centric lenses, like SLR lenses will be ok, but that is also going to lead to longer, more SLR+adapter sized native lenses, unless Sony does something drastic to the sensor. I think the rumor of the native 35/2.8 indicates that short lenses aren't going to be easy on the FF NEX.
Aug 01, 2013 at 12:11 PM
p.16 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Not that I think that Sony cares at all about the general alt community, but given a supposed high price on an FF Nex shouldnt they at least think about winning some hearts from the Leica community? That would mean they should spend some thought about also catering for the various small-designed M wide-angles, wouldnt it?
Comparing product life cycles between Leica and Sony they must have realized the potential their products and features could have in the Leica comminity. That would include simple things like tilt screens to superb sensors and also more advanced features such as IBIS (if it happens..).
Comparing product life cycles between Leica and Sony they must have realized the potential their products and features could have in the Leica comminity. That would include simple things like tilt screens to superb sensors and also more advanced features such as IBIS (if it happens..).
Aug 01, 2013 at 01:17 PM
p.16 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think Sony would like to attract Leica users, but they probably want to attract Leica users into their Zeiss lenses, as well as NEX camera bodies, and I'm not sure that it'd be worth it for Sony to spend the money on developing special micro lenses and what not to solely attract Leica lens users. Plus, people would still complain about the color shift, so Sony would need a software solution for that, too (like Leica.) If I remember correctly, I believe that theSuede said that microlenses optimized for symmetrical wides will start to become a disadvantage at longer tele lengths, so that may also be an issue.
Aug 01, 2013 at 01:23 PM
p.16 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
You're probably right. But when I think about it I see some faint reasons for hope not easily giving up. Think about it, a somewhat retro-styled FF NEX appearing more like the RX1, perhaps even more retro (and nowhere close to the 7). And *with* the possibility to house renowned Leica and Zeiss glass as a complement to a few AF lenses by Sony/Zeiss. 2 years from now there would be 3 models to choose from, the classic original, an AA-less 2nd version and the then brand new improved in all aspects. Leica would not have been able to do anything, still fixed screen, same sensor but ok the red dot is there.
Of course I am not with Sony but if I were I could easily see myself producing a compelling 10 page powerpoint with the pro's of that approach.
EDIT, ...and some backward looking guy from the point-and-shoot dept could do the cons PPT :-)
Of course I am not with Sony but if I were I could easily see myself producing a compelling 10 page powerpoint with the pro's of that approach.
EDIT, ...and some backward looking guy from the point-and-shoot dept could do the cons PPT :-)
Aug 01, 2013 at 02:31 PM