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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.15 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
A slow 2.8 Zeiss 35 at a very premium price (and on a premium body) sort of indicates to me that Sony has likely not endowed this FF NEX sensor with anything that radically improves it's performance with near symmetrical, compact wides. I don't expect we will see great performance with M wides.
Both groups - the M lens users on Nex + the potential buyers of such a premium priced system (4k or more for body 1 new Zeiss lens) are very small. Therefore, it does not justify extensive R&D, because the number of sold items is just too low. Hence the (too) high price for the RX-1.
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.
In both cases (legacy manual lenses or Zeiss Touit/ thenew Zeiss AF FF lenses) Sony makes no money with them, so why should they bother (economically seen)?
At least this is how I see it.
Bernie
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 06:37 AM · View previous versions
A slow 2.8 Zeiss 35 at a very premium price (and on a premium body) sort of indicates to me that Sony has likely not endowed this FF NEX sensor with anything that radically improves it's performance with near symmetrical, compact wides. I don't expect we will see great performance with M wides.
Both groups - the M lens users on Nex + the potential buyers of such a premium priced system (4k or more for body 1 new Zeiss lens) are very small. Therefore, it does not justify extensive R&D, because the number of sold items is just too low. Hence the (too) high price for the RX-1.
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.
In both cases (legacy manual lenses or Zeiss Touit/ thenew Zeiss AF FF lenses) Sony makes no money with them, so why should they bother (economically seen)?
At least this is how I see it.
Bernie
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 06:37 AM · View previous versions
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:33 AM
p.15 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
For Sony to make compact lenses, I'd imagine they have the same problems Leica does in that sensor microlenses at the edges must be able to accept light coming in at oblique angles. Otherwise the lenses will have to be large.
My suspicions are that the 5N and the 16mpx sensors had great corner performance because the microlenses were excellent and tuned for corner performance from small lenses. The NEX-7 had poor corner performance because the 24mpx density demanded the microlenses be designed a certain way.
So hopefully, the new FF camera doesn't have the same limitation.
My suspicions are that the 5N and the 16mpx sensors had great corner performance because the microlenses were excellent and tuned for corner performance from small lenses. The NEX-7 had poor corner performance because the 24mpx density demanded the microlenses be designed a certain way.
So hopefully, the new FF camera doesn't have the same limitation.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:34 AM
p.15 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Fly, what you say makes sense. It could be the reason why Leica opted for a microlens redesign for the M240 instead of the offset micro lenses of the M9.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:40 AM
p.15 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.
I'm sure in real life most of us would be perfectly happy with it, and could do most of the things we wanted, heck probably all. But does it excite you? Does it make you really interested in the product?
I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need that Sony are trying to tap into is to get FF + a tiny package + high quality together, then they may do that. I'm not sure everyone will be so happy with the compromises though, which it will be full of just like anything else.
As someone who uses 35mm (or there abouts) as their main focal length, I'd then have to be waiting for ANOTHER 35mm prime, but faster? Seems extremely unlikely. Jumping the gun, of course ;-).
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.
I'm sure in real life most of us would be perfectly happy with it, and could do most of the things we wanted, heck probably all. But does it excite you? Does it make you really interested in the product?
I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need that Sony are trying to tap into is to get FF + a tiny package + high quality together, then they may do that. I'm not sure everyone will be so happy with the compromises though, which it will be full of just like anything else.
As someone who uses 35mm (or there abouts) as their main focal length, I'd then have to be waiting for ANOTHER 35mm prime, but faster? Seems extremely unlikely. Jumping the gun, of course ;-).
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:43 AM
p.15 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think it will all rest on how good has sony gotten at making microlenses accept oblique angle rays on the corners. Then the lenses can be slightly larger than Leica ASPH sized.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:48 AM
p.15 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
ricardovaste wrote:
I'm sure in real life most of us would be perfectly happy with it, and could do most of the things we wanted, heck probably all. But does it excite you? Does it make you really interested in the product?
I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need...Show more →
I have a 35/1.2 already, so I'm set
edwardkaraa wrote
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need...Show more →
I have a 35/1.2 already, so I'm set
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:05 AM
p.15 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
ricardovaste wrote:
I'm sure in real life most of us would be perfectly happy with it, and could do most of the things we wanted, heck probably all. But does it excite you? Does it make you really interested in the product?
I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need...Show more →
The way I see it, I'd be perfectly happy with a slower, smaller AF lens like the 35/2.8 that I would use as a casual shooting setup, and then I could supplement it with any number of faster MF alt primes (I'm assuming these would be SLR lenses; if it could work well with FF rangefinder-sized lenses, that would be gravy.)
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 07:10 AM · View previous versions
edwardkaraa wrote
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.I guess Sony are trying to avoid the "Oh, you can make it smaller then, but those lenses are bloody huge... kind of pointless, eh?" remark. So perhaps just trying to keep it as small as to begin with. Fair enough. A 2.8/35 isn't terribly interesting to me though, even if it probably would be fine in real use.
If the need...Show more →
The way I see it, I'd be perfectly happy with a slower, smaller AF lens like the 35/2.8 that I would use as a casual shooting setup, and then I could supplement it with any number of faster MF alt primes (I'm assuming these would be SLR lenses; if it could work well with FF rangefinder-sized lenses, that would be gravy.)
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 07:10 AM · View previous versions
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:09 AM
p.15 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
If one of the two new Zeiss lenses is a 'superfast' 35/2.8, I hope that the other won't be a 28-80/3.5-6.3 zoom.. 
Ricoh, are you listening ?. Instead of messing for years with the Pentax purchase why you didn't do something useful like releasing a FF GXR-M II ?
Ricoh, are you listening ?. Instead of messing for years with the Pentax purchase why you didn't do something useful like releasing a FF GXR-M II ?
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:10 AM
p.15 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
We don't know the full story yet. Maybe they opted for f/2.8 to make a compact lens, to make it less expensive, to make it more affordable and appealing for a wider audience, not just advanced users such as this forum folks. It could very well be a pancake kind of design.
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:21 AM
p.15 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
FlyPenFly wrote:
I think it will all rest on how good has sony gotten at making microlenses accept oblique angle rays on the corners. Then the lenses can be slightly larger than Leica ASPH sized.
It's a bit more complicated than that. It also depends on the pixel design and sensor topping design. The Nex-5n (and other Nexs with that sensor) was likely a happy accident, and it still didn't compete with the Ricoh GXR M module when it comes to M lens usage. Even the 5N's sensor scaled up to FF wouldn't be that great with M lenses.
This new 35/2.8 rumor seems to indicate that Sony likely isn't using some new (for them) sensor technology to deal with oblique light rays, and their lenses will need to be relatively large, if they're fast.
I think it will all rest on how good has sony gotten at making microlenses accept oblique angle rays on the corners. Then the lenses can be slightly larger than Leica ASPH sized.
It's a bit more complicated than that. It also depends on the pixel design and sensor topping design. The Nex-5n (and other Nexs with that sensor) was likely a happy accident, and it still didn't compete with the Ricoh GXR M module when it comes to M lens usage. Even the 5N's sensor scaled up to FF wouldn't be that great with M lenses.
This new 35/2.8 rumor seems to indicate that Sony likely isn't using some new (for them) sensor technology to deal with oblique light rays, and their lenses will need to be relatively large, if they're fast.
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:25 AM
p.15 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think part of the issue also has to do with the fact that very fast lenses are not always better, or even as good as less speedy ones, obviously speed excepted. Thus, with improving noise performance from the electronics side, and with lens performance requirements increasing with resolution, speed may become gradually less tempting than ultimate lens quality IMHO.
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:28 AM
p.15 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I'll bet there is more than one lens design out there - SAR has revised lens speeds before, especially on the Fuji X roadmap.
I'm still hoping it is f/2...if it is then I will be an early adopter, if not I will wait for the lens lineup to develop a little and just get the NEX-7 replacement and continue using the Zeiss 24/1.8
I'm still hoping it is f/2...if it is then I will be an early adopter, if not I will wait for the lens lineup to develop a little and just get the NEX-7 replacement and continue using the Zeiss 24/1.8
Jul 31, 2013 at 07:33 AM
p.15 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alba63 wrote:
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.
Bernie
A few hundreds altogether? Sorry, but you're crazy on that point. Even in the nex early days, we saw threads out of Japan with all kinds of crazy lenses posted by many users. Many thousands have legacy lenses on nexes. More importantly, people who post on boards and get attention for products have old lenses on nexes.
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides, could easily double sales of that model.
The buzz alone would be tremendous.
There is no over estimating the nostalgia factor.
Look at all the new pseudo RFs!
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.
Bernie
A few hundreds altogether? Sorry, but you're crazy on that point. Even in the nex early days, we saw threads out of Japan with all kinds of crazy lenses posted by many users. Many thousands have legacy lenses on nexes. More importantly, people who post on boards and get attention for products have old lenses on nexes.
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides, could easily double sales of that model.
The buzz alone would be tremendous.
There is no over estimating the nostalgia factor.
Look at all the new pseudo RFs!
Jul 31, 2013 at 09:28 AM
p.15 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
Jul 31, 2013 at 09:53 AM
p.15 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uhoh7 wrote:
BernieA few hundreds altogether? Sorry, but you're crazy on that point. Even in the nex early days, we saw threads out of Japan with all kinds of crazy lenses posted by many users. Many thousands have legacy lenses on nexes. More importantly, people who post on boards and get attention for products have old lenses on nexes.
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides,...Show more →
I agree, although I'd say that a relatively small proportion of manual glass users use expenise Leica wides. The FF Nex will be fine with legacy SLR lenses, which, along with native lenses, should cover the needs of most shooters, and I'd guess that is what Sony is thinking.
alba63 wrote
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.Bernie
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides,...Show more →
I agree, although I'd say that a relatively small proportion of manual glass users use expenise Leica wides. The FF Nex will be fine with legacy SLR lenses, which, along with native lenses, should cover the needs of most shooters, and I'd guess that is what Sony is thinking.
Jul 31, 2013 at 09:54 AM
p.15 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
That's the conundrum of using e-mount with a FF sensor. Native lenses are going to essentially be DSLR+adapter sized, so even a 35/2.8 will likely be noticeably larger than the lens on the RX1. I wouldn't be surprised if it is close to the size of the Zeiss 24/1.8.
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 10:00 AM · View previous versions
A 35/2.8 would have nearly the same light gathering ability and DOF of the EOS-M, the sensor would be better. 10x the price?
That's the conundrum of using e-mount with a FF sensor. Native lenses are going to essentially be DSLR+adapter sized, so even a 35/2.8 will likely be noticeably larger than the lens on the RX1. I wouldn't be surprised if it is close to the size of the Zeiss 24/1.8.
Edited on Jul 31, 2013 at 10:00 AM · View previous versions
Jul 31, 2013 at 09:58 AM
p.15 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uhoh7 wrote:
BernieA few hundreds altogether? Sorry, but you're crazy on that point. Even in the nex early days, we saw threads out of Japan with all kinds of crazy lenses posted by many users. Many thousands have legacy lenses on nexes. More importantly, people who post on boards and get attention for products have old lenses on nexes.
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides,...Show more →
Lenses are the golden goose when it comes to making a system profitable. Creating a platform for consumers to use lenses they already have wouldn't result in Sony making much money (if any). Let's hope for their sake they have a roadmap that will keep people interested.
alba63 wrote
I'd estimate that the number of shooters who regulary use high end manual lenses on Nex bodies is probably just a few hundreds alltogether (worldwide), opposed to probably hundreds of thousands of nex owners who all use the Zooms and maybe some of the Sony primes.Bernie
Everyone who ever owned an SLR salivates about using those lenses again-With a reasonable form factor.
As to high-end Ms: Leica was the benchmark at the dawn of the Japanese camera industry, and it still is today. A full frame nex which can shoot leica-wides,...Show more →
Lenses are the golden goose when it comes to making a system profitable. Creating a platform for consumers to use lenses they already have wouldn't result in Sony making much money (if any). Let's hope for their sake they have a roadmap that will keep people interested.
Jul 31, 2013 at 10:00 AM
p.15 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
corposant wrote:
Lenses are the golden goose when it comes to making a system profitable. Creating a platform for consumers to use lenses they already have wouldn't result in Sony making much money (if any). Let's hope for their sake they have a roadmap that will keep people interested.
I'm not sure that's really Sony's business model. They seem to me to be much more interested in Body sales. Electronics and sensors are where their strength lies. After all, people replace bodies much more often than lenses. They seem to be perfectly happy to let Zeiss, Olympus, Sigma to share the revenue on the lenses.
Lenses are the golden goose when it comes to making a system profitable. Creating a platform for consumers to use lenses they already have wouldn't result in Sony making much money (if any). Let's hope for their sake they have a roadmap that will keep people interested.
I'm not sure that's really Sony's business model. They seem to me to be much more interested in Body sales. Electronics and sensors are where their strength lies. After all, people replace bodies much more often than lenses. They seem to be perfectly happy to let Zeiss, Olympus, Sigma to share the revenue on the lenses.
Jul 31, 2013 at 10:30 AM
p.15 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is also looking to attract Canon/Nikon AF lens users. Maybe they'll even offer electronic adapters for Canon/Nikon lenses?
Jul 31, 2013 at 11:04 AM
p.15 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is also looking to attract Canon/Nikon AF lens users. Maybe they'll even offer electronic adapters for Canon/Nikon lenses?
This is the strategy Leica is using to attract medium-format users to the S system. The electronic adapters to use Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses have sold S and S2 bodies to people who balked at the idea of replacing their entire system, and once they have an S body the door is open to S lens sales.
I wouldn't be surprised if Sony is also looking to attract Canon/Nikon AF lens users. Maybe they'll even offer electronic adapters for Canon/Nikon lenses?
This is the strategy Leica is using to attract medium-format users to the S system. The electronic adapters to use Hasselblad H and Contax 645 lenses have sold S and S2 bodies to people who balked at the idea of replacing their entire system, and once they have an S body the door is open to S lens sales.
Jul 31, 2013 at 11:40 AM