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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.14 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Moving closer:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-nex-ff-camera-to-be-announced-on-september-24-tomorrow-zeiss-lens-specs/
A few comments on this: I see it is an E mount camera, thereby exacerbating the already problematic M class wide lens issues...so they either performed some wizardry to enable acceptable use of such lenses, or they are aiming purely at native lenses (two Zeiss lenses are indicated for the release date) plus adapted E and A mount optics and no doubt other 'suitable' lenses via adapters, for example Contax G.
That's a shame, the camera might be more 'NEX' than it needed to be. They may have been a victim of timing as the article indicates they have been beavering away for two years on this project, i.e. before the RX1 release.
Still big money for what can be expected to be a fine advanced body, but one that critically needs plentiful high quality small lenses to succeed, in my opinion. This is aimed at a very discerning and demanding target audience.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-nex-ff-camera-to-be-announced-on-september-24-tomorrow-zeiss-lens-specs/
A few comments on this: I see it is an E mount camera, thereby exacerbating the already problematic M class wide lens issues...so they either performed some wizardry to enable acceptable use of such lenses, or they are aiming purely at native lenses (two Zeiss lenses are indicated for the release date) plus adapted E and A mount optics and no doubt other 'suitable' lenses via adapters, for example Contax G.
That's a shame, the camera might be more 'NEX' than it needed to be. They may have been a victim of timing as the article indicates they have been beavering away for two years on this project, i.e. before the RX1 release.
Still big money for what can be expected to be a fine advanced body, but one that critically needs plentiful high quality small lenses to succeed, in my opinion. This is aimed at a very discerning and demanding target audience.
Jul 30, 2013 at 03:40 PM
p.14 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
A few comments on this: I see it is an E mount camera, thereby exacerbating the already problematic M class wide lens issues...so they either performed some wizardry to enable acceptable use of such lenses, or they are aiming purely at native lenses (two Zeiss lenses are indicated for the release date) plus adapted E and A mount optics and no doubt other 'suitable' lenses via adapters, for example Contax G.
there is nothing about the e-mount that causes issues with m-mount lenses. the issue is between the lens and the sensor. changing the mount could only be beneficial for native lenses. m-mount lenses work the same no matter the mount unless the flange to back distance is too great in which case they don't work at all. the only way to improve the performance of m-mount lenses is through the sensor, sensor toppings, and processing.
A few comments on this: I see it is an E mount camera, thereby exacerbating the already problematic M class wide lens issues...so they either performed some wizardry to enable acceptable use of such lenses, or they are aiming purely at native lenses (two Zeiss lenses are indicated for the release date) plus adapted E and A mount optics and no doubt other 'suitable' lenses via adapters, for example Contax G.
there is nothing about the e-mount that causes issues with m-mount lenses. the issue is between the lens and the sensor. changing the mount could only be beneficial for native lenses. m-mount lenses work the same no matter the mount unless the flange to back distance is too great in which case they don't work at all. the only way to improve the performance of m-mount lenses is through the sensor, sensor toppings, and processing.
Jul 30, 2013 at 04:28 PM
p.14 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Agreed with sebboh. It's actually good news that its an E mount, because this means adaptability of most if not all existing mounts. A new mount would have meant uncertainty 
Jul 30, 2013 at 04:35 PM
p.14 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yeah, assuming it's true, I'll be very happy not to have to buy all new adapters.
I was wondering if a release like this would effect used lens prices on MF SLR lenses, so I decided to hedge my bets and start picking up cheap Rokkors where I can find them. They're fun on the 7 anyway.
I was wondering if a release like this would effect used lens prices on MF SLR lenses, so I decided to hedge my bets and start picking up cheap Rokkors where I can find them. They're fun on the 7 anyway.
Jul 30, 2013 at 04:54 PM
p.14 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The latest rumor suggesting that Sony will make the announcement about the FF NEX camera for September 24 makes a lot of sense. My suspicion is that is to coincide with the first major Photo Show after that which will be PhotoPlus in NYC- October 24 to 26. I really expect that Sony will have the Prototype (or several) on display at the show. Hopefully it will be a working camera and not just a mock up. If it is on display at the show, I hope to have the opportunity to handle it and to report back to the forum. In fact, if the camera is an E mount with the same distance for register, I will try to pick up a Leica R to Sony E mount adapter before the show. I will bring some of my Leica R lenses with me to the show and if allowed, will try to mount an R lens or 2 (maybe more) on the new camera.
Rich
Rich
Jul 30, 2013 at 04:55 PM
p.14 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
The latest rumor suggesting that Sony will make the announcement about the FF NEX camera for September 24 makes a lot of sense. My suspicion is that is to coincide with the first major Photo Show after that which will be PhotoPlus in NYC- October 24 to 26. I really expect that Sony will have the Prototype (or several) on display at the show. Hopefully it will be a working camera and not just a mock up. If it is on display at the show, I hope to have the opportunity to handle it and to report back to the...Show more →
Say Rich, Could you sneak a ZE21 w/adapter in your bag as well, Thanks.
The latest rumor suggesting that Sony will make the announcement about the FF NEX camera for September 24 makes a lot of sense. My suspicion is that is to coincide with the first major Photo Show after that which will be PhotoPlus in NYC- October 24 to 26. I really expect that Sony will have the Prototype (or several) on display at the show. Hopefully it will be a working camera and not just a mock up. If it is on display at the show, I hope to have the opportunity to handle it and to report back to the...Show more →
Say Rich, Could you sneak a ZE21 w/adapter in your bag as well, Thanks.
Jul 30, 2013 at 05:45 PM
p.14 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
john_edwards wrote:
RichSay Rich, Could you sneak a ZE21 w/adapter in your bag as well, Thanks.
John,
Sorry, I don't have any of the Zeiss lenses to test. Only the Leica R lenses. That would be a lens that I may want or the ZF version if a ZM 21mm wouldn't play well with the camera. If I purchase the camera, I will probably need a replacement for my Leica R 21mm f4 Super Angulon lens which is quite sharp in the middle but drops off toward the edges.
But, if you had an adapter and the lens I may be able to arrange to get it from you. I live near Allentown, PA.
Rich
naturephoto1 wrote
The latest rumor suggesting that Sony will make the announcement about the FF NEX camera for September 24 makes a lot of sense. My suspicion is that is to coincide with the first major Photo Show after that which will be PhotoPlus in NYC- October 24 to 26. I really expect that Sony will have the Prototype (or several) on display at the show. Hopefully it will be a working camera and not just a mock up. If it is on display at the show, I hope to have the opportunity to handle it and to report back to the forum. In fact, if the camera is an E mount with the same distance for register, I will try to pick up a Leica R to Sony E mount adapter before the show. I will bring some of my Leica R lenses with me to the show and if allowed, will try to mount an R lens or 2 (maybe more) on the new camera.Rich
John,
Sorry, I don't have any of the Zeiss lenses to test. Only the Leica R lenses. That would be a lens that I may want or the ZF version if a ZM 21mm wouldn't play well with the camera. If I purchase the camera, I will probably need a replacement for my Leica R 21mm f4 Super Angulon lens which is quite sharp in the middle but drops off toward the edges.
But, if you had an adapter and the lens I may be able to arrange to get it from you. I live near Allentown, PA.
Rich
Jul 30, 2013 at 05:55 PM
p.14 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
'there is nothing about the e-mount that causes issues with m-mount lenses. the issue is between the lens and the sensor.'
Would it be true to say that Sony is in exactly the same situation as Leica in the attempt to make M lenses 'work well' despite the differences between the E mount and the M mount? It seems counterintuitive, as the ideal platform could be assumed to be one identical to the M mount - but I will accept your word for it.
Would it be true to say that Sony is in exactly the same situation as Leica in the attempt to make M lenses 'work well' despite the differences between the E mount and the M mount? It seems counterintuitive, as the ideal platform could be assumed to be one identical to the M mount - but I will accept your word for it.
Jul 30, 2013 at 06:41 PM
p.14 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
'there is nothing about the e-mount that causes issues with m-mount lenses. the issue is between the lens and the sensor.'
Would it be true to say that Sony is in exactly the same situation as Leica in the attempt to make M lenses 'work well' despite the differences between the E mount and the M mount? It seems counterintuitive, as the ideal platform could be assumed to be one identical to the M mount - but I will accept your word for it.
yes, other than holding the lens in place the mount does nothing. mount distance and diameter play an important role for lens designers in terms of limiting what they can do. once a lens exists though it's just a question of whether or not you can mount it. all m-mount lenses that can be mounted on a digital m camera can also be mounted on an e-mount camera. there may be some older rangefinder lenses with rear elements so far back that they interfere in modern shutters, but that has nothing to do with the mount (and they probably aren't intended for leica m mount cameras anyway).
sony isn't in the exact same position as leica, because they have less need to insure that their sensors play well with leica lenses. the issue with actual leica lenses though is the sensor not the mount. having a wider diameter mount would make designing new lenses significantly easier for sony/zeiss though.
given identical sensors and processing (obviously not the case) the e-mount (or x-mount) is actually a better platform for m-mount glass because it allows the use of a helicoid adapter giving the lenses a more reasonable mfd.
'there is nothing about the e-mount that causes issues with m-mount lenses. the issue is between the lens and the sensor.'
Would it be true to say that Sony is in exactly the same situation as Leica in the attempt to make M lenses 'work well' despite the differences between the E mount and the M mount? It seems counterintuitive, as the ideal platform could be assumed to be one identical to the M mount - but I will accept your word for it.
yes, other than holding the lens in place the mount does nothing. mount distance and diameter play an important role for lens designers in terms of limiting what they can do. once a lens exists though it's just a question of whether or not you can mount it. all m-mount lenses that can be mounted on a digital m camera can also be mounted on an e-mount camera. there may be some older rangefinder lenses with rear elements so far back that they interfere in modern shutters, but that has nothing to do with the mount (and they probably aren't intended for leica m mount cameras anyway).
sony isn't in the exact same position as leica, because they have less need to insure that their sensors play well with leica lenses. the issue with actual leica lenses though is the sensor not the mount. having a wider diameter mount would make designing new lenses significantly easier for sony/zeiss though.
given identical sensors and processing (obviously not the case) the e-mount (or x-mount) is actually a better platform for m-mount glass because it allows the use of a helicoid adapter giving the lenses a more reasonable mfd.
Jul 30, 2013 at 07:27 PM
p.14 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
E-mount will be great for manual glass users. For those interested in native, AF lenses for a FF NEX system, it isn't necessarily a good thing, since it will force Sony to make longer lenses.
I'll be shocked if the FF NEX plays well with a lot of M glass. I wouldn't be surprised if the M240 was sharper across the frame with just about all lenses less than 50mm. In fact, maybe even with 50mm lenses, but we'll see what Sony does with the sensor and toppings.
I'll be shocked if the FF NEX plays well with a lot of M glass. I wouldn't be surprised if the M240 was sharper across the frame with just about all lenses less than 50mm. In fact, maybe even with 50mm lenses, but we'll see what Sony does with the sensor and toppings.
Jul 30, 2013 at 08:18 PM
p.14 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I am pretty sure that Sony don't care at all about M-mount performance on FF NEX, and this for a number of reasons. The first one, of course, is that they don't make money on them, so they would "only" make money on the camera body, instead of the whole system. The second one is that the percentage of people who use expensive MF glass on NEX is very small relative to total NEX sales. I bought my first NEX 3 years ago, and, since, notive other NEX users. I have not seen more than 5 people with alt glass on NEX over the course of 4 years. All the rest are kit zooms, mixed with very few 18-200. That doesn't mean that people like us don't exist, just we are a drop in the NEX bucket.
So the NEX FF will be released with lenses Sony can make money on, its own or Zeiss, and whatever happens with M-mount will be purely a by-product IMHO.
Now I used to be very dubious about NEX FF because there was no proof that a wide-angle lens could perform even on APS-C NEX. But that changed with the Touit 12mm, which shows no colour shift at all even with the NEX 7. This means that Zeiss have the ability to design a wide lens, say a 21mm, which would function well on a NEX FF.
Choosing between an APS-C NEX 7 sucessor which can accomodate all kinds of alt lenses and a NEX FF which will work well "only" with dedicated Zeiss glass ain't going to be easy... But what a tasty choice....
So the NEX FF will be released with lenses Sony can make money on, its own or Zeiss, and whatever happens with M-mount will be purely a by-product IMHO.
Now I used to be very dubious about NEX FF because there was no proof that a wide-angle lens could perform even on APS-C NEX. But that changed with the Touit 12mm, which shows no colour shift at all even with the NEX 7. This means that Zeiss have the ability to design a wide lens, say a 21mm, which would function well on a NEX FF.
Choosing between an APS-C NEX 7 sucessor which can accomodate all kinds of alt lenses and a NEX FF which will work well "only" with dedicated Zeiss glass ain't going to be easy... But what a tasty choice....
Jul 31, 2013 at 12:23 AM
p.14 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
'I am pretty sure that Sony don't care at all about M-mount performance on FF NEX'
Philippe, you can see this another way. If you want to sell a $3000 body only (and people complain about the RX1 with its wonderful lens for the same money) Leica M users are very likely to be a large proportion of interested parties, no? Sales of the body alone will matter greatly to Sony due to high per unit price structures. The drop in the bucket is now more than half the bucket, I wager. It's a high end camera with a price to match. Sony have also acknowledged the impact on both sales and perceptions broght about by Alt lens users.
This FF camera has to be seen very differently from something you put an 18-200 Sony lens on, I think. Sony will be lucky to sell many of their own E mount lenses to many customers, that is why it will come with at least two Zeiss lenses, AF Touit style, almost certainly, maybe with another daffy family name. There are no rumours of Sony FF NEX lenses either, to my knowledge.
Now put yourself in the shoes of a experienced and comfortably off Leica M enthusiast user, with an M9 or M240 and say three lenses. Someone who understands and appreciates the finer things in life, rather than the 100% crops of coins DPR folks and fast heavy pro zoom addicted people. Would not a relatively cheap body which worked as good or better with your precious M lenses be attractive? Even as a spare body?
Not enough? OK, how about we throw in the best sensor presently made for the format, the best IBIS made, several AF Zeiss lenses, EVF tech, plus make it small and very Leica-like? OK, now add adaptors for R lenses (many Leicaphiles use both) for the fine small to medium R lenses, think Summicrons at 300-450 grams for example? Contax G. All on 35mm format so they look like the champion designers intended them to look? If they get this right, only red dot aficionados and hardcore RF fans might be interested in Leica bodies.
It'll be a big oversight if Sony don't do at least as well as Leica have for several years now re wide Leica Ms. Their sensor design people obviously have runs on the board, excellent recent form in fact. And their collab with Zeiss is very close during dev.
It's a big camera for Sony, but any company can get it wrong anytime, and they all do at least some of the time. We'll soon know.
Philippe, you can see this another way. If you want to sell a $3000 body only (and people complain about the RX1 with its wonderful lens for the same money) Leica M users are very likely to be a large proportion of interested parties, no? Sales of the body alone will matter greatly to Sony due to high per unit price structures. The drop in the bucket is now more than half the bucket, I wager. It's a high end camera with a price to match. Sony have also acknowledged the impact on both sales and perceptions broght about by Alt lens users.
This FF camera has to be seen very differently from something you put an 18-200 Sony lens on, I think. Sony will be lucky to sell many of their own E mount lenses to many customers, that is why it will come with at least two Zeiss lenses, AF Touit style, almost certainly, maybe with another daffy family name. There are no rumours of Sony FF NEX lenses either, to my knowledge.
Now put yourself in the shoes of a experienced and comfortably off Leica M enthusiast user, with an M9 or M240 and say three lenses. Someone who understands and appreciates the finer things in life, rather than the 100% crops of coins DPR folks and fast heavy pro zoom addicted people. Would not a relatively cheap body which worked as good or better with your precious M lenses be attractive? Even as a spare body?
Not enough? OK, how about we throw in the best sensor presently made for the format, the best IBIS made, several AF Zeiss lenses, EVF tech, plus make it small and very Leica-like? OK, now add adaptors for R lenses (many Leicaphiles use both) for the fine small to medium R lenses, think Summicrons at 300-450 grams for example? Contax G. All on 35mm format so they look like the champion designers intended them to look? If they get this right, only red dot aficionados and hardcore RF fans might be interested in Leica bodies.
It'll be a big oversight if Sony don't do at least as well as Leica have for several years now re wide Leica Ms. Their sensor design people obviously have runs on the board, excellent recent form in fact. And their collab with Zeiss is very close during dev.
It's a big camera for Sony, but any company can get it wrong anytime, and they all do at least some of the time. We'll soon know.
Jul 31, 2013 at 12:55 AM
p.14 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Philip, you make excellent points, IMHO. Where we differ is not that there is indeed a group of committed 'togs who wish for a smaller-than-Leica, cheaper-than-Leica FF camera with M-mount lenses.
Our difference is in how many less dedicated hobbyists will walk into a camera store and buy a NEX FF as a high-end camera because it is a much lighter and smaller alternative to a DSLR equivalent (D800, 5D III, Alpha 99).
My guess is, strange though it may seem to some, one of the Zeiss lenses wil be a narrow-range zoom, say a 35-70, to make the system very different from a RX-1, and that this will concentrate most of the sales. The same way the EF 24-105 is the Canon warhorse for the 5D II and III, and not the many primes available.
And, for Sony's sake, I hope I am right. Because, if you are, and dedicated hobbyists are, as you say, more than half the bucket, then the overall volume will be small indeed, and I wish Sony well on their efforts to supply us with brave, innovative designs.
But, as I said, you could well be right. Your guess is as good as mine.
Our difference is in how many less dedicated hobbyists will walk into a camera store and buy a NEX FF as a high-end camera because it is a much lighter and smaller alternative to a DSLR equivalent (D800, 5D III, Alpha 99).
My guess is, strange though it may seem to some, one of the Zeiss lenses wil be a narrow-range zoom, say a 35-70, to make the system very different from a RX-1, and that this will concentrate most of the sales. The same way the EF 24-105 is the Canon warhorse for the 5D II and III, and not the many primes available.
And, for Sony's sake, I hope I am right. Because, if you are, and dedicated hobbyists are, as you say, more than half the bucket, then the overall volume will be small indeed, and I wish Sony well on their efforts to supply us with brave, innovative designs.
But, as I said, you could well be right. Your guess is as good as mine.
Jul 31, 2013 at 01:27 AM
p.14 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
E-mount will be great for manual glass users. For those interested in native, AF lenses for a FF NEX system, it isn't necessarily a good thing, since it will force Sony to make longer lenses.
I'll be shocked if the FF NEX plays well with a lot of M glass. I wouldn't be surprised if the M240 was sharper across the frame with just about all lenses less than 50mm. In fact, maybe even with 50mm lenses, but we'll see what Sony does with the sensor and toppings.
The VG900 ins't a good foreboding in that aspect.
I share your 'non very optimistic' point of view but, or course I'd like to be proved wrong etc. etc..
For the comments I've read here and elsewhere, people seems little concerned about the resolution of the FF NEX. Do you think guys that Sony will stay with the 24 mp sensor ?. My guess is that they will raise the count to 36mp or more. What do you prefer: more Mp. and a bit more of noise (maybe) or less resolution, a bit less of noise and (possibly) better corner performance with RF wides ?
E-mount will be great for manual glass users. For those interested in native, AF lenses for a FF NEX system, it isn't necessarily a good thing, since it will force Sony to make longer lenses.
I'll be shocked if the FF NEX plays well with a lot of M glass. I wouldn't be surprised if the M240 was sharper across the frame with just about all lenses less than 50mm. In fact, maybe even with 50mm lenses, but we'll see what Sony does with the sensor and toppings.
The VG900 ins't a good foreboding in that aspect.
I share your 'non very optimistic' point of view but, or course I'd like to be proved wrong etc. etc..
For the comments I've read here and elsewhere, people seems little concerned about the resolution of the FF NEX. Do you think guys that Sony will stay with the 24 mp sensor ?. My guess is that they will raise the count to 36mp or more. What do you prefer: more Mp. and a bit more of noise (maybe) or less resolution, a bit less of noise and (possibly) better corner performance with RF wides ?
Jul 31, 2013 at 04:37 AM
p.14 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I hope for RX1 type resolution. That's enough for any size print the way I see it. I dont care to much about crop-possibilities as one might as well go for a APS-C type sensor in that case which kind of misses the point :-)
Jul 31, 2013 at 05:26 AM
p.14 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.
Jul 31, 2013 at 05:45 AM
p.14 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.
A slow 2.8 Zeiss 35 at a very premium price (and on a premium body) sort of indicates to me that Sony has likely not endowed this FF NEX sensor with anything that radically improves it's performance with near symmetrical, compact wides. I don't expect we will see great performance with M wides.
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.
A slow 2.8 Zeiss 35 at a very premium price (and on a premium body) sort of indicates to me that Sony has likely not endowed this FF NEX sensor with anything that radically improves it's performance with near symmetrical, compact wides. I don't expect we will see great performance with M wides.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:06 AM
p.14 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
A slow 2.8 Zeiss 35 at a very premium price (and on a premium body) sort of indicates to me that Sony has likely not endowed this FF NEX sensor with anything that radically improves it's performance with near symmetrical, compact wides. I don't expect we will see great performance with M wides.
I have the same feeling Tariq, but I hope we're both wrong
edwardkaraa wrote
So the Zeiss prime will be a 35/2.8 according to SAR. Not really exciting, but if the IQ is there and the MFD is decent, I would seriously consider it. Otherwise, I hope the FF Nex will perform well with my ZM 35/2.I have the same feeling Tariq, but I hope we're both wrong
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:11 AM
p.14 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yes, I hope I'm wrong as well.
Jul 31, 2013 at 06:21 AM