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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.13 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote: This thread reminds me of the mini-M thread.
Just watch out; if Sony plays their techno cards right than the M-240 may turn into mini-M overnight.
Just watch out; if Sony plays their techno cards right than the M-240 may turn into mini-M overnight.
Jul 17, 2013 at 08:09 PM
p.13 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
JaKo wrote:
Just watch out; if Sony plays their techno cards right than the M-240 may turn into mini-M overnight.
The new Sony camera certainly will not be a rangefinder camera, will probably will not play as well with the M lenses as the Leica M240, and it is highly unlikely that the new Sony camera will built to the level of a Leica.
Rich
Earlier quote
aleksanderpolo wrote: This thread reminds me of the mini-M thread.The new Sony camera certainly will not be a rangefinder camera, will probably will not play as well with the M lenses as the Leica M240, and it is highly unlikely that the new Sony camera will built to the level of a Leica.
Rich
Jul 17, 2013 at 08:13 PM
p.13 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Rich, the next NEX most certainly will not be a rangefinder, but it may be a small, FF mirrorless camera accepting many great alt lenses, M or not.
Speaking of 'build level'; it won't be hard to come up with a better sensor, superior EVO/OVF, LCD display, and on and on.
If you think of the next NEX as Leica M-240 direct competitor than you set your thresholds too low, IMO.
Again, photogs 'prayers' and 'hopes' for acceptable FF mirrorless will turn into something decent sooner or later
Speaking of 'build level'; it won't be hard to come up with a better sensor, superior EVO/OVF, LCD display, and on and on.
If you think of the next NEX as Leica M-240 direct competitor than you set your thresholds too low, IMO.
Again, photogs 'prayers' and 'hopes' for acceptable FF mirrorless will turn into something decent sooner or later
Jul 17, 2013 at 08:26 PM
p.13 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Let's face it, one of the reasons of the Nex success was it's ability to take alt glass, especially when Sony were slow to introduce their own lenses. I think it is in Sony's interest to put a sensor in the Nex 9 that will accept extreme light angles, not only it will make it easier for them to design their own lenses, but it will allow the Nex 9 to become a huge success, if this is really what Sony wants.
Jul 17, 2013 at 09:18 PM
p.13 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Edward, there is a large number of M/ZM, alt-M lenses users hoping to put their collected alt glass on Leica-M or equivalent cameras, Sony FF NEX being the best option.
However, I doubt Sony /Zeiss collaboration’s main objective is to keep alive their competitors’ (Leica; new or especially used lenses) glass usable on NEX cameras. Why would they? In fact they may do anything and everything to make them obsolete and push Zeiss next high performance lenses (Touit, new .ZF or whatever will perform the best on 50+ MP sensors) as the NEXt best option.
I am not a technical person but it appears that Zeiss is heading fast towards high MP compatible lenses and Sony is their partner in crime. We will see the outcome soon.
However, I doubt Sony /Zeiss collaboration’s main objective is to keep alive their competitors’ (Leica; new or especially used lenses) glass usable on NEX cameras. Why would they? In fact they may do anything and everything to make them obsolete and push Zeiss next high performance lenses (Touit, new .ZF or whatever will perform the best on 50+ MP sensors) as the NEXt best option.
I am not a technical person but it appears that Zeiss is heading fast towards high MP compatible lenses and Sony is their partner in crime. We will see the outcome soon.
Jul 17, 2013 at 09:52 PM
p.13 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jako, I totally agree with you that Sony would prefer to sell its own lenses with this camera. But as Sony's CEO himself stated during the launch of the Nex system, Sony wants as many users as possible to buy into their system, including alt lens owners, and also Sony encouraged 3rd party lens manufacturers to design and produce lenses for the Nex system by disclosing the communication protocols to them.
The way I see it, if Sony limits the camera compatibility with alt glass, Sony sells fewer cameras, and consequently fewer lenses.
If they don't, they sell more cameras, and ultimately more lenses too, as I believe even the most hardcore alt lens owners will not be able to resist the temptation of buying the delicious Zeiss glass that is being designed for this platform, which also has the advantage of AF.
The way I see it, if Sony limits the camera compatibility with alt glass, Sony sells fewer cameras, and consequently fewer lenses.
If they don't, they sell more cameras, and ultimately more lenses too, as I believe even the most hardcore alt lens owners will not be able to resist the temptation of buying the delicious Zeiss glass that is being designed for this platform, which also has the advantage of AF.
Jul 17, 2013 at 10:50 PM
p.13 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
This will be a direct shot at both the M240 and the D800.
It won't be aimed at the 5D3/1DX and comparable Nikon cameras.
If Sony is smart, they'll make it 36+ mp, remove the AA (not for resolution purposes, but to limit sensor thickness/light angles from small, old, M lenses and such), and do everything they can to make this compatible with older alt lenses.
I see it as the FF analogue to what Fuji did with the X100 and X-Pro1, except with resolution and FF being the driving forces here. I wouldn't expect a blisteringly fast system. But I would expect an IQ champion with good enough AF/PJ uses and astounding landscape/camera-back style shooting.
It won't be aimed at the 5D3/1DX and comparable Nikon cameras.
If Sony is smart, they'll make it 36+ mp, remove the AA (not for resolution purposes, but to limit sensor thickness/light angles from small, old, M lenses and such), and do everything they can to make this compatible with older alt lenses.
I see it as the FF analogue to what Fuji did with the X100 and X-Pro1, except with resolution and FF being the driving forces here. I wouldn't expect a blisteringly fast system. But I would expect an IQ champion with good enough AF/PJ uses and astounding landscape/camera-back style shooting.
Jul 18, 2013 at 12:25 AM
p.13 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I'm fairly certain that, if it comes to fruition and plays with RF wide to ultra-wides, it will be a happy coincidence thanks to design decisions they made for their own planned lenses.
I doubt Sony will actively work against using alt glass. I think they genuinely appreciate the small market into which they tapped when we discovered the "shoot without lens" option and the joys/frustrations of their first stab at focus peaking. One of the execs even acknowledged us in an interview before the release of the 5n and 7. But we are a small market, and the percentage of hard-liners who are firmly in the "RF or nothing" camp even smaller. And we're a market that's proven somewhat pacified with third-party software fixes for problematic lenses in post. So I have a hard time believing Sony could make an effective business case to ensure their design was compatible with 100% of the available photographic glass in the world. It will still be up to us to determine what works and what doesn't, and some won't.
I doubt Sony will actively work against using alt glass. I think they genuinely appreciate the small market into which they tapped when we discovered the "shoot without lens" option and the joys/frustrations of their first stab at focus peaking. One of the execs even acknowledged us in an interview before the release of the 5n and 7. But we are a small market, and the percentage of hard-liners who are firmly in the "RF or nothing" camp even smaller. And we're a market that's proven somewhat pacified with third-party software fixes for problematic lenses in post. So I have a hard time believing Sony could make an effective business case to ensure their design was compatible with 100% of the available photographic glass in the world. It will still be up to us to determine what works and what doesn't, and some won't.
Jul 18, 2013 at 12:43 AM
p.13 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
And how are they going to sell us on the next generation if this one is perfect?
Jul 18, 2013 at 12:51 AM
p.13 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
freaklikeme wrote:
And how are they going to sell us on the next generation if this one is perfect?
It won't be perfect. Not close.
AF, EVF (if it has one), DR, resolution, usability/ergonomics and much more will make plenty of room for improvement.
It's kinda like when folks said the original 1Ds was perfect-- so how could it be improved? Well, of course it was improved. The D800 and 1DX also show plenty of room for improvement.
And, of course, the real money is probably in lenses and accessories over the long term. Bodies might be profitable, but lenses and the halo of services/sales related to the system is like ink to an inkjet printer.
And how are they going to sell us on the next generation if this one is perfect?
It won't be perfect. Not close.
AF, EVF (if it has one), DR, resolution, usability/ergonomics and much more will make plenty of room for improvement.
It's kinda like when folks said the original 1Ds was perfect-- so how could it be improved? Well, of course it was improved. The D800 and 1DX also show plenty of room for improvement.
And, of course, the real money is probably in lenses and accessories over the long term. Bodies might be profitable, but lenses and the halo of services/sales related to the system is like ink to an inkjet printer.
Jul 18, 2013 at 12:58 AM
p.13 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
The new technologies will be the ones that can improve rapidly over model cycles: on sensor AF, EVF. Ergonomics just need to be 'good enough' in a middling way, anything like An M camera or XE-1 size, Sony are good at providing options for functions. And lenses, most recent lenses are very good indeed. Maybe not Sony's so it has to be CZ for the three that hopefully accompany the body.
M lens compatibility is a second order design aim, but one that will be looked at hard, and if they can improve the situation without compromise I feel they will. It's a big draw to a prospective buyer and that demographic is their target audience. Who would have thought that two years ago?
M lens compatibility is a second order design aim, but one that will be looked at hard, and if they can improve the situation without compromise I feel they will. It's a big draw to a prospective buyer and that demographic is their target audience. Who would have thought that two years ago?
Jul 18, 2013 at 01:24 AM
p.13 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Well CZ makes small M-mount glass and they were supposedly working on this project with Sony so I wouldn't be surprised if a bit of wisdom was imparted from lens to camera maker. After all if nex ff plays well with M glass Zeiss has their digital Ikon without breaking a sweat ... They get to sell both old and new lenses.
Jul 18, 2013 at 05:31 AM
p.13 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
morpheus2891 wrote:
Well CZ makes small M-mount glass and they were supposedly working on this project with Sony so I wouldn't be surprised if a bit of wisdom was imparted from lens to camera maker. After all if nex ff plays well with M glass Zeiss has their digital Ikon without breaking a sweat ... They get to sell both old and new lenses.
Though this may be in CZ's best interest, Sony may not believe that it is theirs. We will just have to wait this out and find out closer to the release of the new Sony and any reports on it usage with these lenses.
Rich
Well CZ makes small M-mount glass and they were supposedly working on this project with Sony so I wouldn't be surprised if a bit of wisdom was imparted from lens to camera maker. After all if nex ff plays well with M glass Zeiss has their digital Ikon without breaking a sweat ... They get to sell both old and new lenses.
Though this may be in CZ's best interest, Sony may not believe that it is theirs. We will just have to wait this out and find out closer to the release of the new Sony and any reports on it usage with these lenses.
Rich
Jul 18, 2013 at 05:44 AM
p.13 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
As I've said previously, one of the biggest complaints about the E mount lenses not counting the lack of lenses is that they were too big, and if they don't improve the ray angle issues, the only way to get good IQ is with big lenses, which will be followed by a large choir of complainers... "What's the point! May as well buy a DSLR" so the only way to keep the lens size in check is to solve the low angle ray problem which will also benefit RF wide lenses.
Will it be the perfect? I wish, but I doubt it, I see Sony as a world class sprinter in photography, they work hard all year and on the day of the big race they put their track shoes on the wrong feet.
Will it be the perfect? I wish, but I doubt it, I see Sony as a world class sprinter in photography, they work hard all year and on the day of the big race they put their track shoes on the wrong feet.
Jul 18, 2013 at 07:18 AM
p.13 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Number of NEX body that has microlenses catering to M lenses today:
Zero
I will believe it when I see it. On the other hand, I hope they are delaying the launch of NEX7 successor to accommodate that change.
So far it's been wishful thinking, just like the mini-M thread.
Zero
I will believe it when I see it. On the other hand, I hope they are delaying the launch of NEX7 successor to accommodate that change.
So far it's been wishful thinking, just like the mini-M thread.
Jul 18, 2013 at 08:41 AM
p.13 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Rich, I think they see the cool market response to Sony OEM lenses as a negative - which it clearly is if your aim is to sell to Leicaphiles. They are unconvincing even for crop NEX.
The Zeiss tie up now extends to two top selling RX cameras, perhaps 6-7 ZA lenses, and Sony would be happy about the Touits. Unlike C/N they need to establish credibility, there is none better than CZ, their development partner for around five years now. Both parties benefit from market success.
They have the opportunity to start afresh here re design, registration distances and body shape, that is why I don't like the term 'FF NEX' for a $3000 body. The NEX7 is a $1000 body.
After seeing the RX1 tech, there is not much the two companies cannot do, and beam angle issues should be well within their capabilities, if they include it in their functional specification, as they should. You can be sure their engineers have been looking at it for years now, since NEX was released.
They are probably keeping a lot to themselves also. The RX1 was a very well kept secret - the story was only leaked on September 9 last year, when the camera was fully developed and virtually ready for distribution, even had PR photos ready.
The Zeiss tie up now extends to two top selling RX cameras, perhaps 6-7 ZA lenses, and Sony would be happy about the Touits. Unlike C/N they need to establish credibility, there is none better than CZ, their development partner for around five years now. Both parties benefit from market success.
They have the opportunity to start afresh here re design, registration distances and body shape, that is why I don't like the term 'FF NEX' for a $3000 body. The NEX7 is a $1000 body.
After seeing the RX1 tech, there is not much the two companies cannot do, and beam angle issues should be well within their capabilities, if they include it in their functional specification, as they should. You can be sure their engineers have been looking at it for years now, since NEX was released.
They are probably keeping a lot to themselves also. The RX1 was a very well kept secret - the story was only leaked on September 9 last year, when the camera was fully developed and virtually ready for distribution, even had PR photos ready.
Jul 18, 2013 at 09:56 PM
p.13 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Comparison with the Leica Vario X launch are misplaced. Leica ran a 'guess what we have for you' campaign themselves (not some rumour site), lots of images and titillation amid suggestions they had something very good.
I was even sucked in and could not believe they would be so foolish as to misread the market so badly. It was an own goal of significant proportions. They beclowned themselves in full public view, but even that does not describe the damage fully.
No one will believe them next time. They appeared out of touch and disrespectful of their user base, who are very well-informed indeed.
Compare and contrast with the RX1 launch. Doing beats pretending any day of any week in the business world.
I was even sucked in and could not believe they would be so foolish as to misread the market so badly. It was an own goal of significant proportions. They beclowned themselves in full public view, but even that does not describe the damage fully.
No one will believe them next time. They appeared out of touch and disrespectful of their user base, who are very well-informed indeed.
Compare and contrast with the RX1 launch. Doing beats pretending any day of any week in the business world.
Jul 18, 2013 at 10:08 PM
p.13 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Mini M was a bridge too far. IMO.
Jul 19, 2013 at 12:52 AM
p.13 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
morpheus2891 wrote:
Well CZ makes small M-mount glass and they were supposedly working on this project with Sony so I wouldn't be surprised if a bit of wisdom was imparted from lens to camera maker. After all if nex ff plays well with M glass Zeiss has their digital Ikon without breaking a sweat ... They get to sell both old and new lenses.
Except it won't have a rangefinder. This is obviously a very, very subjective and oft-debated perspective, but so far I've not found an EVF/live view solution that is good at fast, precise, manual focus of wide angle lenses with absolutely positive visual feedback to confirm precise focus. Focus peaking becomes a mess of color squiggles picking up OOF high contrast transitions, necessitating magnified view focusing. Great if you have the time to do so, but it's not always the case. Interesting reports from M240 users stating they're getting better focus consistency/repeatability using the rangefinder vs. the EVF (granted, the EVF isn't the latest or greatest). The higher the resolution climbs, the more critical precise focus with wider angle lenses becomes...
As for Zeiss building lenses in anticipation of higher MP sensors... it's definitely the case. But they're not alone. Canon is also doing this. Same with Leica, such as the 21/3.4, 24/3.8, 50AA, etc. Not being a Nikon user, I haven't kept close track of their lenses, but would be surprised if they're not also on this track in light of the D800. In other words, everyone is upgrading their lens inventories for higher resolution sensors.
That said, whatever FF mirrorless comes to market, I will want to try it.
Well CZ makes small M-mount glass and they were supposedly working on this project with Sony so I wouldn't be surprised if a bit of wisdom was imparted from lens to camera maker. After all if nex ff plays well with M glass Zeiss has their digital Ikon without breaking a sweat ... They get to sell both old and new lenses.
Except it won't have a rangefinder. This is obviously a very, very subjective and oft-debated perspective, but so far I've not found an EVF/live view solution that is good at fast, precise, manual focus of wide angle lenses with absolutely positive visual feedback to confirm precise focus. Focus peaking becomes a mess of color squiggles picking up OOF high contrast transitions, necessitating magnified view focusing. Great if you have the time to do so, but it's not always the case. Interesting reports from M240 users stating they're getting better focus consistency/repeatability using the rangefinder vs. the EVF (granted, the EVF isn't the latest or greatest). The higher the resolution climbs, the more critical precise focus with wider angle lenses becomes...
As for Zeiss building lenses in anticipation of higher MP sensors... it's definitely the case. But they're not alone. Canon is also doing this. Same with Leica, such as the 21/3.4, 24/3.8, 50AA, etc. Not being a Nikon user, I haven't kept close track of their lenses, but would be surprised if they're not also on this track in light of the D800. In other words, everyone is upgrading their lens inventories for higher resolution sensors.
That said, whatever FF mirrorless comes to market, I will want to try it.
Jul 19, 2013 at 01:15 AM
p.13 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yes re peaking and focus mag, Ron, I agree.
MF lenses are nonetheless potentially well catered for however, for very many shots (almost all I do for example, incl some people as impromptu shots) and people have got by very well even by zone focusing etc. So for a lot it will be enough. Like me, the 21mm and 24mm Super Elmar lenses might replace a Distagon, saving someone 400 grams and balance nicely on a small camera. Top performance.
But AF is the mirrorless cameras' real killer app - why I emphasise them above. Sony/Zeiss must get these working well, AF differentiates 'native system lenses' from the MF class lenses. If I miss focus with the RX1, for example, at ISO 12800 it's my fault every time (miss target, don't wait until acquire), so in that sense they are there now.
I doubt a RF camera, even Leica, gets within a country mile of AF performance in that light (and accurately verifiable in the EVF), I would not even consider it with say, A Mamiya 7. Might be wrong though. What do you think?
I read Nikon have but three lenses 'up to' the D800 sensor. Sony could put the sensor straight into an RX1...or 'FF NEX'. Zeiss might get the jump on them both.
MF lenses are nonetheless potentially well catered for however, for very many shots (almost all I do for example, incl some people as impromptu shots) and people have got by very well even by zone focusing etc. So for a lot it will be enough. Like me, the 21mm and 24mm Super Elmar lenses might replace a Distagon, saving someone 400 grams and balance nicely on a small camera. Top performance.
But AF is the mirrorless cameras' real killer app - why I emphasise them above. Sony/Zeiss must get these working well, AF differentiates 'native system lenses' from the MF class lenses. If I miss focus with the RX1, for example, at ISO 12800 it's my fault every time (miss target, don't wait until acquire), so in that sense they are there now.
I doubt a RF camera, even Leica, gets within a country mile of AF performance in that light (and accurately verifiable in the EVF), I would not even consider it with say, A Mamiya 7. Might be wrong though. What do you think?
I read Nikon have but three lenses 'up to' the D800 sensor. Sony could put the sensor straight into an RX1...or 'FF NEX'. Zeiss might get the jump on them both.
Jul 19, 2013 at 01:45 AM