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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.12 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Sony is remaking itself, sflxn, that much is clear. In the background they still harbour delusions of grandeur on the DSLR front, which I sincerely hope they divest themselves of pronto. No good can come of it.
If they keep up this talk, Cybershot Division should secede, and get out from the mess that gave the uncaring world all those Alpha models they made a couple of years back.
We must hope they do not compromise design purity of the coming mirrorless models by making them overly A mount friendly. It will just add weight and bulk.
Another reason to concentrate on M class lenses is that they are among a small set of lenses that will work well with higher MP sensors...especially so in dedicated 'hand cameras' like mirrorless with top IBIS. I hope in particular they do a great job with the shutters. Their latest DLSR shutters are very nice indeed. The RX1 leaf shutter is 'love at first snick'. It's a small but overlooked piece of getting top IQ.
If they keep up this talk, Cybershot Division should secede, and get out from the mess that gave the uncaring world all those Alpha models they made a couple of years back.
We must hope they do not compromise design purity of the coming mirrorless models by making them overly A mount friendly. It will just add weight and bulk.
Another reason to concentrate on M class lenses is that they are among a small set of lenses that will work well with higher MP sensors...especially so in dedicated 'hand cameras' like mirrorless with top IBIS. I hope in particular they do a great job with the shutters. Their latest DLSR shutters are very nice indeed. The RX1 leaf shutter is 'love at first snick'. It's a small but overlooked piece of getting top IQ.
Jul 16, 2013 at 09:08 PM
p.12 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
My most important buying criteria are:
M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.
M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.
Jul 16, 2013 at 09:10 PM
p.12 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
My most important buying criteria are:
M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.
i think you are destined to be disappointed even more than the rest of us. when has sony ever gone retro style?
My most important buying criteria are:
M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.
i think you are destined to be disappointed even more than the rest of us. when has sony ever gone retro style?
Jul 16, 2013 at 10:01 PM
p.12 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.i think you are destined to be disappointed even more than the rest of us. when has sony ever gone retro style?
Not necessarily retro, I should have added a beefed up RX1 should be ok too. I just don't like the Nex form factor. This said, I'm quite confident that for such an expensive pro level body, Sony will definitely come up with an attractive design.
edwardkaraa wrote
My most important buying criteria are:M or X pro 1 form factor, not ugly Nex.
No AA filter.
Built in EVF in upper left corner.
Plays well with my ZM lenses.
Any of the above missing, no deal. Of course it would be nice to have tilting LCD and ibis and what not, but not a deal breaker for me.
Not necessarily retro, I should have added a beefed up RX1 should be ok too. I just don't like the Nex form factor. This said, I'm quite confident that for such an expensive pro level body, Sony will definitely come up with an attractive design.
Jul 16, 2013 at 10:29 PM
p.12 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I would love a mirrorless camera with a:
Sony sensor
Olympus IBIS, AF speed + reliability, EVF, Weather sealing, JPG quality
Fuji designed body and quality
Leica optics
Panasonic touch menu
Sony sensor
Olympus IBIS, AF speed + reliability, EVF, Weather sealing, JPG quality
Fuji designed body and quality
Leica optics
Panasonic touch menu
Jul 16, 2013 at 10:42 PM
p.12 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
briantho wrote:
FF Nex at $3000 is going to be a huge success for Sony. No, it's not for the masses, but it doesn't have to be.
Even the local brick stores in Munich have a Nikon D600 for €1549. 19% tax already included. And a DSLR with mechanical parts is quite likely more expensive to produce than a mirrorless system.
It should be below $1500. More would be a ripp off. There alreay is a M9 priced "not for the masses".
FF Nex at $3000 is going to be a huge success for Sony. No, it's not for the masses, but it doesn't have to be.
Even the local brick stores in Munich have a Nikon D600 for €1549. 19% tax already included. And a DSLR with mechanical parts is quite likely more expensive to produce than a mirrorless system.
It should be below $1500. More would be a ripp off. There alreay is a M9 priced "not for the masses".
Jul 16, 2013 at 10:55 PM
p.12 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
Not necessarily retro, I should have added a beefed up RX1 should be ok too. I just don't like the Nex form factor. This said, I'm quite confident that for such an expensive pro level body, Sony will definitely come up with an attractive design.
ah, i much prefer the NEX-7 size and grip to any m-camera or fuji x-camera. there'll ugly to me though.
if we're listing our needs and desire, for me a FF mirrorless needs to have:
1) FF sensor (duh)
2) be as small or smaller than the xp-1
3) have an evf or at least allow one to be attached
things i want, but probably aren't required for me to buy the camera:
1) good performance with rangefinder wides
2) IBIS
3) evf on the corner
4) tilt lcd
things i could care less about and would probably prefer not to have:
1) auto focus
2) ovf
3) lenses
i'm sure i probably missed some things in these lists.
Not necessarily retro, I should have added a beefed up RX1 should be ok too. I just don't like the Nex form factor. This said, I'm quite confident that for such an expensive pro level body, Sony will definitely come up with an attractive design.
ah, i much prefer the NEX-7 size and grip to any m-camera or fuji x-camera. there'll ugly to me though.
if we're listing our needs and desire, for me a FF mirrorless needs to have:
1) FF sensor (duh)
2) be as small or smaller than the xp-1
3) have an evf or at least allow one to be attached
things i want, but probably aren't required for me to buy the camera:
1) good performance with rangefinder wides
2) IBIS
3) evf on the corner
4) tilt lcd
things i could care less about and would probably prefer not to have:
1) auto focus
2) ovf
3) lenses
i'm sure i probably missed some things in these lists.
Jul 16, 2013 at 11:22 PM
p.12 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
Richthat would be a dream. it sounds entirely too much like exactly what i want for it to possibly be true. perhaps they will take the evf and tilt lcd off, or make it somehow bigger than a FF dslr...If they do away with the tilt screen, I'm blaming all the people who bought the RX1 for making Sony think it was acceptable not to have one. 
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.Well if Sony is listening to the forums, the clamoring, and requests and suggestions more than Leica did for the M240, we may be in luck.
Rich
While I'm sure they're not completely deaf to user feedback (they certainly heard our collective frustration with the REC button on the 7) I hope they aren't listening too closely. At this point, no one else makes a camera I'd rather shoot with, so I say let Sony be Sony.
freaklikeme wrote
sebboh wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
The more rumors that are being reported, the more I like what I am hearing. Under $3000 with IBIS based upon the Olympus system and the IBIS works with the MF lenses.Rich
I follow the line of thought, though. We're getting into the realm of too-good-to-be-true.
Rich
While I'm sure they're not completely deaf to user feedback (they certainly heard our collective frustration with the REC button on the 7) I hope they aren't listening too closely. At this point, no one else makes a camera I'd rather shoot with, so I say let Sony be Sony.
Jul 16, 2013 at 11:23 PM
p.12 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I guess it's our wish-list time...
- I would like "one-navy" system with one knob I could assign shutter speed to.
I always shoot full manual and the only thing I change is shutter speed. Somehow it's never simple.
Even NEX-7 doesn't have it done properly despite 5 programable knobs... NEX-6 which I like a lot has one
knob and it is completely wasted as it's the M/P/etc switch, which I never switch to anything...
If I have two knobs, 2nd one has to be programable to ISO.
- tilting LCD is a must, the only thing keeping me from getting RX1R
- a camera like NEX-6 is my favorite shape and size
- I actually prefer the attachable EVF which is tilted.
- two sd card slots, quite often I shoot something crucial (not only for work) and I would like to feel better about
recording a backup copy in the same time.
- I would like "one-navy" system with one knob I could assign shutter speed to.
I always shoot full manual and the only thing I change is shutter speed. Somehow it's never simple.
Even NEX-7 doesn't have it done properly despite 5 programable knobs... NEX-6 which I like a lot has one
knob and it is completely wasted as it's the M/P/etc switch, which I never switch to anything...
If I have two knobs, 2nd one has to be programable to ISO.
- tilting LCD is a must, the only thing keeping me from getting RX1R
- a camera like NEX-6 is my favorite shape and size
- I actually prefer the attachable EVF which is tilted.
- two sd card slots, quite often I shoot something crucial (not only for work) and I would like to feel better about
recording a backup copy in the same time.
Jul 17, 2013 at 12:36 AM
p.12 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
When experienced users start on things like swivelling LCDs (a rare fitting in any case) and dual SD slots, you know that the maker likely has the basics right.
While on the small things, I too think they should keep the RX1 style EVF. Why?
It is highly effective design-wise and preferable in a short (vertical dimension) camera which already means less room for hands as well as a built-in EVF; and because it is a distinctive fitting, looks very different to most other cameras. Also it can be updated that way. They do need a locking mechanism though, which the RX1 lacks, so some of us just leave it on all the time and use a small bag big enough not to put pressure on it.
On NEX matters, here is a link to an interesting thread at DPR, featuring a good guy, Mel Snyder explaining some facts of business life to all and sundry - a fun read:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3517762#forum-post-51815226
One thing gets mentioned there - apparently the NEX zooms made by Sony are not that great or have QC problems...maybe that is the source of some angst against Sony. Another reason I say the NEX is a basic camera and you can only do so much for the $$. And why the FF mirrorless should be $3000. Technology can filter down later on. The big chief needs some good news on profitability first..
While on the small things, I too think they should keep the RX1 style EVF. Why?
It is highly effective design-wise and preferable in a short (vertical dimension) camera which already means less room for hands as well as a built-in EVF; and because it is a distinctive fitting, looks very different to most other cameras. Also it can be updated that way. They do need a locking mechanism though, which the RX1 lacks, so some of us just leave it on all the time and use a small bag big enough not to put pressure on it.
On NEX matters, here is a link to an interesting thread at DPR, featuring a good guy, Mel Snyder explaining some facts of business life to all and sundry - a fun read:
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3517762#forum-post-51815226
One thing gets mentioned there - apparently the NEX zooms made by Sony are not that great or have QC problems...maybe that is the source of some angst against Sony. Another reason I say the NEX is a basic camera and you can only do so much for the $$. And why the FF mirrorless should be $3000. Technology can filter down later on. The big chief needs some good news on profitability first..
Jul 17, 2013 at 01:13 AM
p.12 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
My list:
- I like the Nex-7 interface, but I would like the control wheels to be somwhat more tactile/solid feeling.
- Even better viewfinder than the Nex-7. I do like the nex-7, but I still miss the huge optical viewfinders of fullframe cameras some time, so.. hybrid finder maybe?
- A little bit larger than the nex-7 preferably. I would love a rx/leica/canonet etc body shape (no hump).
- Tilting screen is nice
- ibis would be nice, especially if you can enter focal length on legacy glass.
- I like the Nex-7 interface, but I would like the control wheels to be somwhat more tactile/solid feeling.
- Even better viewfinder than the Nex-7. I do like the nex-7, but I still miss the huge optical viewfinders of fullframe cameras some time, so.. hybrid finder maybe?
- A little bit larger than the nex-7 preferably. I would love a rx/leica/canonet etc body shape (no hump).
- Tilting screen is nice
- ibis would be nice, especially if you can enter focal length on legacy glass.
Jul 17, 2013 at 01:19 AM
p.12 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I would love to have a full format NEX-7 alike camera with no problems in the corners of the sensor (which is listed by Sebboh as good rangefinder performance), a way better menu and no video button in the corner where I would intuitively locate my thumb (sorry for bad English).
That's it. IBIS would be a goodie.
That would be my always with me camera (credits to Philber)
Regarding the tprice: As it is my second camera, it should be priced like the original NEX-7 around 1.000 EUR.
All the best,
Stefan
Edited on Jul 17, 2013 at 02:13 AM · View previous versions
That's it. IBIS would be a goodie.
That would be my always with me camera (credits to Philber)
Regarding the tprice: As it is my second camera, it should be priced like the original NEX-7 around 1.000 EUR.
All the best,
Stefan
Edited on Jul 17, 2013 at 02:13 AM · View previous versions
Jul 17, 2013 at 01:47 AM
p.12 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think I could live with it even if it would not take M lenses, as long as it is small enough and provides a good platform for say C/Y 28/2.8 and 85/2.8 and is priced around 2000EUR. The most important thing is that it should get the other players start thinking about their mirrorless FF cam, so we see some competition on this until now non-existing market ( I left the Leica aside for obvious reasons )
Regards, Stefan
Regards, Stefan
Jul 17, 2013 at 01:55 AM
p.12 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Build quality and viewfinder are very important for me. I have a NEX 7. I love the images it creates, but I think the build quality is toy-like. The viewfinder lag bothers me so much I hardly ever use it. It reminds me of the original X100 in a not favorable way. When you want to take the shot, the camera shouldn't lag and get in the way. Both the X100 and NEX-7 reminded me they were computers. I've never felt that way with DSLRs. I'd like a no compromise FF NEX that gives me the responsiveness of a DSLR and not remind me I'm using a computer.
Jul 17, 2013 at 02:38 AM
p.12 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Its true that the NEX-7 feels a bit hollow and fragile, maybe from making it too light. It doesn't have the robust feel of a Olympus or Fuji. This is an affliction that affects every Sony mirrorless camera. The EVF is also a bit too contrasty even after fiddling with the JPG settings to get it to be more natural.
Jul 17, 2013 at 04:53 AM
p.12 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
FlyPenFly wrote:
Its true that the NEX-7 feels a bit hollow and fragile, maybe from making it too light. It doesn't have the robust feel of a Olympus or Fuji. This is an affliction that affects every Sony mirrorless camera. The EVF is also a bit too contrasty even after fiddling with the JPG settings to get it to be more natural.
The RX1 is much more solid and well built than any current Olympus or Fuji camera. Coming from Leica M or the RX1, the Fujis feel pretty hollow and cheap. If Sony goes that route, the FF mirrorless will feel fine. Also, the EVF from the Nex-6 and RX1 has already been improved over the Nex-7.
That being said, I don't find the Nex-7 to be under built. It is just light.
Its true that the NEX-7 feels a bit hollow and fragile, maybe from making it too light. It doesn't have the robust feel of a Olympus or Fuji. This is an affliction that affects every Sony mirrorless camera. The EVF is also a bit too contrasty even after fiddling with the JPG settings to get it to be more natural.
The RX1 is much more solid and well built than any current Olympus or Fuji camera. Coming from Leica M or the RX1, the Fujis feel pretty hollow and cheap. If Sony goes that route, the FF mirrorless will feel fine. Also, the EVF from the Nex-6 and RX1 has already been improved over the Nex-7.
That being said, I don't find the Nex-7 to be under built. It is just light.
Jul 17, 2013 at 06:48 AM
p.12 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I too think that the nex-7 feels solid. Not heavy/oldschool brass solid, but solid nonetheless.
I just hope that they go the rx1-route design wise, no grip hump, but I guess that is a bit controversial.
I just hope and pray that my 35/1.2 CV will work on it.
I just hope that they go the rx1-route design wise, no grip hump, but I guess that is a bit controversial.
I just hope and pray that my 35/1.2 CV will work on it.
Jul 17, 2013 at 06:53 AM
p.12 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Unless the FF NEX sports a sensor of a new kind, totally different from the current breed, my bet is that the behavior with RF wides won't be significantly better from the current NEX line. See the VG900.
It's no reasonable to expect that Sony will put all their resources to optimize the sensor, toppings and microlenses in order to compete with the Leica M-240, when that FF NEX (or whatever name) is supposed to deliver the best from Sony's new own line of FF lenses, which are, of course, yet to come...
I'm not expecting much in that sense, nor I believe that the general design and ergonomics will differ appreciably from the current models. This won't be a product of the Cybershot division. The RX1 isn't a valid comparison.
Anyway, I'm sure that compared to the Leica X Vario, it will be a great camera.
It's no reasonable to expect that Sony will put all their resources to optimize the sensor, toppings and microlenses in order to compete with the Leica M-240, when that FF NEX (or whatever name) is supposed to deliver the best from Sony's new own line of FF lenses, which are, of course, yet to come...
I'm not expecting much in that sense, nor I believe that the general design and ergonomics will differ appreciably from the current models. This won't be a product of the Cybershot division. The RX1 isn't a valid comparison.
Anyway, I'm sure that compared to the Leica X Vario, it will be a great camera.
Jul 17, 2013 at 10:26 AM
p.12 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Unless the FF NEX sports a sensor of a new kind, totally different from the current breed, my bet is that the behavior with RF wides won't be significantly better from the current NEX line. See the VG900. It's no reasonable to expect that Sony will put all their resources to optimize the sensor, toppings and microlenses in order to compete with the Leica M-240, when that FF NEX (or whatever name) is supposed to deliver the best from Sony's new own line of FF lenses, which are, of course, yet to come...
Yes, I agree. But ... do people really think Sony is going to come out with an effective or useful range of FF lenses in the near future? If their rate of introduction is comparable to the release of Nex lenses, then we could be in for a long and frustrating wait.
Just to contradict the above somewhat, it seems to me that making an FF mirrorless that is M mount and does work with M wides is the only thing that really makes any ergonomic sense. Not accomodating rangefinder lenses by using appropriate micro lenses is going to mean some pretty hefty lenses, which sort of defeats the point of the small body size advantage over DSLRs - at least from my perspective.
Yes, I agree. But ... do people really think Sony is going to come out with an effective or useful range of FF lenses in the near future? If their rate of introduction is comparable to the release of Nex lenses, then we could be in for a long and frustrating wait.
Just to contradict the above somewhat, it seems to me that making an FF mirrorless that is M mount and does work with M wides is the only thing that really makes any ergonomic sense. Not accomodating rangefinder lenses by using appropriate micro lenses is going to mean some pretty hefty lenses, which sort of defeats the point of the small body size advantage over DSLRs - at least from my perspective.
Jul 17, 2013 at 05:18 PM
p.12 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
This thread reminds me of the mini-M thread.
Jul 17, 2013 at 06:46 PM