I know in theory it might not seem that different in weight or size between the two but in real life it makes a huge difference overall. For instance I would need to use a different camera bag that would fit the 5d3 let alone one that would fit the 5d3 with grip. That alone saves me a lot of bag space as well as bag weight. If I was using the EOS M with my EF lenses I would probably only use one EF lens such as my 35L, 85LII or 16-35LII. This would allow me to use a very small, light compact camera bag that I could easily fit anywhere. Quite important when doing a lot of walking around with two little kids or for golf buddy shots I agree that if I was going to bring multiple lenses then it wouldn't make much of a difference since I have to use my bigger bags anyway. chez wrote:
Do you really think you would use this with your EF lenses just to save a little weight. If you are already taking your lenses, why not just also take your 5D3 ungripped? How much savings is there is size once you add the adapter onto the P&S?
Maybe I have a mental block, but I really don't see myself ever taking this along with a bag full of full frame lenses? I can see taking this with the 20mm lens in place of all my other gear, but to just replace the 5D3 with this camera and keep all those lenses, what are you really saving?...Show more →
Monito wrote:
So? Get the right prescription. Get bifocals. Get trifocals. Get reading glasses. You don't need to hold it at arms length. Bring it in closer. Rest your upper arms and elbows against your body.
Have you ever tried bifocals or trifocals? I did and there is no way I can tolerate the constant adjustment and part of your view out of focus. Same thing happens with reading glasses since I only need glasses to correct my distance vision at night.
Canon needs to have a EVF available. Just like Sony does for the NEX-7 or optionally for the NEX-5N.
chez wrote:
Do you really think you would use this with your EF lenses just to save a little weight. If you are already taking your lenses, why not just also take your 5D3 ungripped? How much savings is there is size once you add the adapter onto the P&S?
Maybe I have a mental block, but I really don't see myself ever taking this along with a bag full of full frame lenses? I can see taking this with the 20mm lens in place of all my other gear, but to just replace the 5D3 with this camera and keep all those lenses, what are you really saving?...Show more →
The big advantage when it comes to mirrorless cameras is the option to mix lenses of different mounts. I do this all the time with my NEX. If I want to travel really, really light, I take a NEX with a single adapted rangefinder lens. If I want flexibility or convenience, I take a NEX with a kit lens. If I want to go for a hike with lots of flexibility for landscape shots, I'll take a selection of primes, one of which is usually a TS-E lens, one of which is usually a tiny rangefinder lens, and one is usually a small K-mount lens.
Yes, if you are adapting DSLR lenses to mirrorless cameras those are going to be bigger than native mount lenses. But, it gives you much more flexibility in putting together your total kit for whatever you happen to want to do with it on any particuar day. I could go out with a "bag full" of EF lenses...but I usually just go out with one, and an assortment of other much smaller and lighter lenses. And in reality it makes a huge difference in weight.
So, I think yes, the "mental block" here is thinking you have to restrict your lens selection to one mount
jerrykur wrote:
Or are over 40 and have presbyopia. We all develop it sooner or later.
Monito wrote:
So? Get the right prescription. Get bifocals. Get trifocals. Get reading glasses. You don't need to hold it at arms length. Bring it in closer. Rest your upper arms and elbows against your body.
jerrykur wrote:
Have you ever tried bifocals or trifocals? I did and there is no way I can tolerate the constant adjustment and part of your view out of focus. Same thing happens with reading glasses since I only need glasses to correct my distance vision at night.
Canon needs to have a EVF available. Just like Sony does for the NEX-7 or optionally for the NEX-5N.
Monito, I have to concur with Jerry on this...wearing glasses for close distances is a nightmare for photography and bi-focals are not an ideal solution by any measure! Sure, people wear them...because they HAVE to but not by choice. I have trouble reading my LCD menu options & at night it's even worse...so I have to wear reading glasses but it's a constant hassle on & off. At least with a viewfinder, it's only a problem when changing menu options...which makes it more tolerable. Everytime my wife and I are out with the kids, she'll hand me her P&S or phone to take a quick snapshot...she will always immediately ask me how'd the picture come out...to which I always respond, "It's blurry...but they always look blurry to me at this distance".
jerrykur wrote:
Have you ever tried bifocals or trifocals? I did and there is no way I can tolerate the constant adjustment and part of your view out of focus. Same thing happens with reading glasses since I only need glasses to correct my distance vision at night.
Canon needs to have a EVF available. Just like Sony does for the NEX-7 or optionally for the NEX-5N.
You might want to try the latest generation of digital progressive lenses. They are digitally customized to you on both lens surfaces. They make your vision appear perfect (no distortion, no blurry areas), like you are not wearing progressives. I have a pair of Hoya inStyle lenses and they are beyond amazing. Only look into them if you are comfortable spending between $700 and $1,100 for a finished pair of glasses. Hopefully, the price of this technology will come down quickly once they become more common.
According to Canon UK's David Parry, Canon is aiming the EOS M at a new market – people who want to get a bit more from a camera than a compact model can offer them, without the complication or bulk of a DSLR. It's for people who want to take better pictures, but who don't necessarily consider themselves photographers or want to become photographers.
Appearance-wise the Canon EOS M is like one of Canon's Powershot mid-range compact cameras with a bigger than usual lens. It doesn't have the same number of button and dial controls as the top-end Canon G1-X and Canon G12 because it's designed to be unintimidating to novice photographers.
Thanks to its magnesium alloy and stainless steel shell the M also has a solid, high quality feel
Everyone seems so personally invested in whether Canon has met **their** needs with each release. These threds become fairly tedius to try to read.
It would be much more informative to read your professional evaluation of where the camera fits in the marketplace, including Canon's realistic sales targets.
When I worked at a Fortune 5 company, we sold many, many smaller companies and passed on many opportunities that could make a small, niche player rich.
But it takes a **lot** of sales to move the needle when you are the largest in your industry. Nobody cares about a 5 million opportunity - they talk in terms of billions of dollars.
And each product proposal is competing for limited internal resources. Something that sells 20,000 units is not going to get prioritozation over something that sells 20 million units. It is just the nature of the beast.
The bottom line is that we have a lethora" of great tools topday, and I am delighted! I almost bought a Nikon D800 this spring, but could not justify teh cost.
So I bought a Canon T4i that, at $850, gives me essentially the same quality as my Canon 1DsII that cost $8,000 in 2004. Plus it has video, a touch screen, an articulating screen, face or object tracking (I love tracking a stationary object and recomposing), and, above all - video.
I am very happy. And I know the Nikon, GH2, and NEX-5Nn are out there if I am not. It is cheaper to buy a whole new system than it used to be to shoot film for 1 year.
mmurph wrote:
Everyone seems so personally invested in whether Canon has met **their** needs with each release. These threds become fairly tedius to try to read. [...] The bottom line is that we have a lethora" of great tools topday, and I am delighted!
chez wrote:
Do you really think you would use this with your EF lenses just to save a little weight. If you are already taking your lenses, why not just also take your 5D3 ungripped? How much savings is there is size once you add the adapter onto the P&S?
Maybe I have a mental block, but I really don't see myself ever taking this along with a bag full of full frame lenses? I can see taking this with the 20mm lens in place of all my other gear, but to just replace the 5D3 with this camera and keep all those lenses, what are you really saving?...Show more →
I would think the biggest thing it offers in terms of lenses is flexibility. You can use it with the 22mm and just throw it in a pocket. You can use it as a backup camera. You can use it as a video option if you are currently using a 1d series without video. You can use it as your only camera if you want an upgrade from P&S or cell phone cameras.
If people are using the NEX cameras, I don't see why this would be any different in terms of market positioning. With the exception of native support of all EF series lenses with full AF and IS. People seem to be happy to put a large(r) lens on an NEX and carry that around.
Monito wrote:
So? Get the right prescription. Get bifocals. Get trifocals. Get reading glasses. You don't need to hold it at arms length. Bring it in closer. Rest your upper arms and elbows against your body.
Get contacts... I have presbyopia and without contacts my arms aren't long enough to even read the menu on the LCD. The viewfinder on my SLRs is also not that great. With contacts, I have 20/25 and can read small print a foot away. I have no issues seeing the LCD on my PL-2 while diving. I generally hold it about 18" away from my face. My distance vision is better as well.
Find a good optometrist (that's key -- fitting these contacts is an art) and ask about torric (you likely also have developed astigmatism) multifocal contacts. They're the greatest thing since bottled beer!
The only downside has little to do with photography. If I lie down on my side and try to watch TV or when I'm diving and I float head-down, the contacts start to rotate out of position (these contacts have an up and down and are weighed to stay that way) and the whole world goes screwy. As long as my head remains somewhat perpendicular to the ground and not upsidedowm, all is well. Looking up or down doesn't mess it up either... Its when I'm looking ahead and my head is sideways or upsidedown that it gets bad after a few seconds -- they are somewhat sticky, so they don't rotate right away or very fast. Hope some of that made sense.
pKai wrote:
Get contacts... I have presbyopia and without contacts my arms aren't long enough to even read the menu on the LCD. The viewfinder on my SLRs is also not that great. With contacts, I have 20/25 and can read small print a foot away. I have no issues seeing the LCD on my PL-2 while diving. I generally hold it about 18" away from my face. My distance vision is better as well.
Find a good optometrist (that's key -- fitting these contacts is an art) and ask about torric (you likely also have developed astigmatism) multifocal contacts. They're the greatest thing since bottled beer!
The only downside has little to do with photography. If I lie down on my side and try to watch TV or when I'm diving and I float head-down, the contacts start to rotate out of position (these contacts have an up and down and are weighed to stay that way) and the whole world goes screwy. As long as my head remains somewhat perpendicular to the ground and not upsidedowm, all is well. Looking up or down doesn't mess it up either... Its when I'm looking ahead and my head is sideways or upsidedown that it gets bad after a few seconds -- they are somewhat sticky, so they don't rotate right away or very fast. Hope some of that made sense. ...Show more →
Had Toric lenses . I never did like them. It might have been how they were fit or the fact that my eyes are kind of try. Ever time I blinked they rotated and then ever so slowly drifted back into place. I got LASIK a few years later that took care of my astigmatism and distance issues. In daylight I am 20/20 in one eye, 20/30 in the other. Then I got older and the darned presbyopia cropped it's ugly head.
Anyway no way I would get contacts just to use a Canon product. Canon needs to provide a EVF.
Today, if I were going to buy a small system I would look seriously at the NEX 5N/7.
I think Canon made a good choice on the format (APS-C mirrorless). A FF mirrorless would probably be a small market product and it would be difficult to support such a product with a range of lenses (unless they all supported EF mount).
I would like more control dials (mode dial, ISO button, EC button, etc.). Lack of flash is no big deal to me.
Most interestingly, I think it's great that Canon chose to have a 22mm f/2 lens for APS-C. CHRIST. EVERY manufacturer should make such a lens for their APS-C lineup.
mmurph wrote:
Everyone seems so personally invested in whether Canon has met **their** needs with each release. These threds become fairly tedius to try to read.
Particularly bad to do that when the product release, like this, is a product that is designed to be a compromise in the first place.
I WAS getting pretty excited about the EOS M as a replacement for my P&S ... until I realized that it probably does not have AF MA. There is no way that I can get excited about an interchangeable lens camera without AF MA ... I just don't need that level of grief. Especially when it looks like I will be putting ~$1,400 into the kit. Very disappointed since I can look at the AF MA adjustments that I have made on my 5D3 and 7D and know that these lenses will require some adjustment on the EOS M. I hope I am wrong about the AF MA ... anyone know for sure?
There are two main elements in photography....the smaller element.....actually taking pics....and the larger element, spending time on forums like this commenting and speculating and criticizing like mad.
UCSB wrote:
I WAS getting pretty excited about the EOS M as a replacement for my P&S ... until I realized that it probably does not have AF MA. There is no way that I can get excited about an interchangeable lens camera without AF MA ... I just don't need that level of grief. Especially when it looks like I will be putting ~$1,400 into the kit. Very disappointed since I can look at the AF MA adjustments that I have made on my 5D3 and 7D and know that these lenses will require some adjustment on the EOS M. I hope I am wrong about the AF MA ... anyone know for sure?...Show more →
The EOS-M's phase detect AF is on-sensor. I don't see why it would need AF MA, which is a solution for DSLRs where the AF sensor is physically separate and only in an ideal world at the exact same optical path distance from the sensor plane.
Re: the derision noted by the OP expressed by so many about this camera and new system.
Of course there is. It was the same for the Nikon 1. On paper it is the opposite of what most forum-dwelling enthusiast photographers want. But go to a camera store and give it a try. It's actually a good camera. Fast enough, good enough picture quality. And it's small. This is what the general consumer wants.
Giving this some thought, I think APS-C will become the 'consumer' version of FF. Initially I thought Canon should have gone m4/3 size sensor or even the 1" found in the Nikon 1 to make for a much more compact system. And I still think there is logic in that. However, with the Sony RX100 we're seeing what will be the future trend for P&S cameras - they will up-size the sensor while remaining compact, as one of few viable survival paths from the flood of cell phone cameras. This will chip away at the viability of interchangeable lens systems with similar sensor sizes. By choosing APS-C, Canon allows for some size reduction while being able to argue better image quality (though it's really not 'that' much better than m4/3) and APS-C is still a reasonable compromise for use of EF lenses, which Canon of course wants to sell by the boatload.
I think the EOS-M looks solid. Maybe the AF isn't stellar, but neither was CDAF until very recently. A year or two should change that aspect. The touch UI design is getting very good reviews and is promising. I'm interested to see what they release to compete against the NEX-7. Integrated wifi would be nice. Many people already own phones that can become personal hotspots, and would allow direct to web uploading. I'm a bit baffled why wifi isn't integrated...
artd wrote:
The big advantage when it comes to mirrorless cameras is the option to mix lenses of different mounts. I do this all the time with my NEX. If I want to travel really, really light, I take a NEX with a single adapted rangefinder lens. If I want flexibility or convenience, I take a NEX with a kit lens. If I want to go for a hike with lots of flexibility for landscape shots, I'll take a selection of primes, one of which is usually a TS-E lens, one of which is usually a tiny rangefinder lens, and one is usually a small K-mount lens.
Yes, if you are adapting DSLR lenses to mirrorless cameras those are going to be bigger than native mount lenses. But, it gives you much more flexibility in putting together your total kit for whatever you happen to want to do with it on any particuar day. I could go out with a "bag full" of EF lenses...but I usually just go out with one, and an assortment of other much smaller and lighter lenses. And in reality it makes a huge difference in weight.
So, I think yes, the "mental block" here is thinking you have to restrict your lens selection to one mount ...Show more →
I agree. I would really like to see from Ricoh a GXR II that is fast and responsive with a variety of short register distance sensor module options. Give us FF, APS-C, m4/3 and a quality, very compact, all in one zoom like in the RX100 permanently mated to a 1" sensor. It would make the GXR a small camera that could be a true P&S zoomer, or anything up to and including a FF alt platform, all from one body and a few modules. Why the GXR? Because this will never come from the mainstream.
rscheffler wrote:
The EOS-M's phase detect AF is on-sensor. I don't see why it would need AF MA, which is a solution for DSLRs where the AF sensor is physically separate and only in an ideal world at the exact same optical path distance from the sensor plane.
Interesting observation ... thanks, that is encouraging. I can see how that would work. I guess the easy way to explore this topic would be to just buy the camera and test a few lenses.
pKai wrote:
The only downside has little to do with photography. If I lie down on my side and try to watch TV or when I'm diving and I float head-down, the contacts start to rotate out of position (these contacts have an up and down and are weighed to stay that way) and the whole world goes screwy. As long as my head remains somewhat perpendicular to the ground and not upsidedowm, all is well. Looking up or down doesn't mess it up either... Its when I'm looking ahead and my head is sideways or upsidedown that it gets bad after a few seconds -- they are somewhat sticky, so they don't rotate right away or very fast. Hope some of that made sense. ...Show more →
How's your distance vision with contacts. My euyesight isn't too bad, but I need to hold the camera 12" away to see the LCD sharply. If I fix this with contacts I assume my distance vision gets worse, which is what I don't want.
I agree that if I was going to bring multiple lenses then it wouldn't make much of a difference since I have to use my bigger bags anyway. 
lethora" of great tools topday, and I am delighted! I almost bought a Nikon D800 this spring, but could not justify teh cost.
