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Archive 2011 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6

  
 
eric_m
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p.2 #1 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


I've been going every other version for the past few: CS2, CS4, and my plan was to buy CS6. I pulled the trigger and bought CS5. Saved $40 by doing so before the end of the year. I'll buy CS6 and stay on the current version.

In the grand scheme of thing, $200 every 12 to 18 months isn't going to break the bank for me. Even given the new pricing, Photoshop is a bargain compared to the time it saves me over using other programs.


Eric



Nov 12, 2011 at 07:11 AM
HubbardJA
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p.2 #2 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


As long as they keep the education discount I'm golden. Adobe and Apple education pricing is one of the nice benefits of being married to a teacher

-Jayson



Nov 12, 2011 at 08:41 AM
CarlG
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p.2 #3 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


skibum5 wrote:
wow

so unless i quickly upgraded my stand alone photoshop to CS5 which I already have I'd forever have to upgrade the premiere pro suite each time even if at times I;d just want new PS....



No, you will not be required to upgrade to the entire Suite!!



Nov 12, 2011 at 08:52 AM
matt4626
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p.2 #4 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Econ 101....I think this is too big a price increase for many. I'd put it at 50/50 they will back off.


Nov 12, 2011 at 10:14 AM
kdlanejr
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p.2 #5 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


I jumped from a single product photoshop CS5 to Production Premium CS 5.5 in order to pick up Premier Pro and the rest of the products in the suite at a reasonable price.

Most of the photographers I associate with in my area are on a two or three year upgrade path. Usually that's what I also do.

What I see happening now.., is going on a five or six year upgrade path.

This will do several things. 1) It will slow down the need to deal with the "changes" being implemented by Adobe. 2) It will slow down the desire to buy a new camera body not supported by ACR, but only slightly so, since we will still be able to process in the manufacturers program and process to a DNG, which will most likely be something that adobe continues to support (DNG format).
3) It will make Adobe rethink their business plan.





Nov 12, 2011 at 11:36 AM
uz2work
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p.2 #6 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


My reason for moving from CS3 to CS4 was to be able to use more RAM with the 64 bit capability. There was no compelling reason for me to spend $200 to upgrade to CS5, and my plan was to wait and upgrade to CS6.

With the new upgrade pricing policy, however, there is obviously no advantage to skipping a generation. But there is an alternative to upgrading for each generation, and that alternative is to start skipping 2 or more generations. That is an option that I may well take and wait until CS 7 to upgrade. I use Capture One and have no need to have a current version of ACR to use with any new cameras. Thus, if Adobe wants to use the new policy to get people who would otherwise have been skipping one generation to upgrade with each generation and if Adobe is successful in getting people to upgrade with each generation, they will increase their revenue, but, if a good number of those who had been upgrading with every other generation start skipping 2 or more generations, the policy change could well backfire on Adobe and actually decrease their revenue flow.

Les




Nov 12, 2011 at 11:36 AM
skibum5
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p.2 #7 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


CarlG wrote:
No, you will not be required to upgrade to the entire Suite!!


Well I had a Design Suite (among other things) and all I cared about in it was InDesign and they refused to let me trade in the rest of the suite for InDesign only. They said I could either stick with what I have forever or pay full suite upgrade price each time just to upgrade InDesign alone. They 100% refused to let me simply upgrade InDesign alone and forfeit the rest of the suite. They said a suite can never be broken up. No component upgraded individually and you can never trade down from an entire suite to jsut single element of it and give all the rest bacj to them, once you are in a suite you are in a suite.

The CS rep agreed that seemed silly but he said there was nothign he could do. He even said they send msgs to management all the time asking for changes but they never seem to change the policy.



Nov 12, 2011 at 02:13 PM
DougDolde
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p.2 #8 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Greedy aren't they? Now if they would just quit adding fluff and fix the real problems like bugs and a crappy interface it would be more palatable.


Nov 14, 2011 at 04:56 PM
TrojanHorse
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p.2 #9 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


If you read the comments their rationale includes such gems as "But Microsoft is worse!"

It also looks like they want to do away with the software in a box philosophy and go all-subscription.

Sigh... I was looking forward to that cool refocus thingy in CS6, I might have to hold off out of spite.



Nov 14, 2011 at 05:13 PM
Ho1972
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p.2 #10 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


CS5 does all that I need it to do and more. Heck, I can do all of my editing in Photoshop 6 if I have to.

If the subscription model is where they're headed, they can move forward without me.



Nov 14, 2011 at 05:34 PM
15Bit
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p.2 #11 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Alan321 wrote:
For some (if not many) the main driver for buying a new version of Ps is to get an upgrade of the Adobe Camera Raw plug-in needed to suit a newly purchased camera model.


I would agree. Their unreasonable policy of effectively stopping all support for a product when the new version comes out is another. Got a problem? Upgrade to the new version....

Given the ease with which a non-legitimate copy of CS5 (or LR3) can be obtained, i can see quite a lot of currently honest amateurs feeling themselves driven down this road if Adobe adopt a more onerous policy of gouging customers.

In the wider view, this and the recent decision regarding Flash make me wonder if Adobe are running into some serious difficulties.



Nov 15, 2011 at 01:20 AM
wickerprints
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p.2 #12 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


They would sell their products at 50x the rate if they slashed the price to 10% of its present cost. There are a ridiculous number of casual users of Photoshop who just pirate a copy, and who would never buy a legitimate copy at the prices they're asking. At $70, it would be so affordable that many people would rather buy it and get official status rather than a sketchy, potentially malware-laden copy.

The reason why their software is as expensive as it is, is simply because they've bought out all the competition. For all the flaws and shortcomings of CS5, no other set of applications is as complete. It commands the prices it does because the professionals pay for it, and there's nowhere else to go. Like it or not, Adobe effectively holds a monopoly on graphic design software, primarily due to the way the work you create in their applications forces you to continue using their applications (i.e., your LR libraries, your layered PSDs, your InDesign layouts, etc.)

That said, if you think Adobe software is expensive, you've not been exposed to the realm of analytical software for institutional/commercial use, like SAS, Mathematica, Maple, Matlab, etc. But these are expensive because your small business owner is not a user of these tools--it's stuff for big companies and academic institutions who can afford to pay the license fees. The problem is that Adobe products are used across a wide array of creative fields, and there's very little in the way of tiered pricing for varying levels of personal/professional use. The small business owner gets screwed.

As long as pricing is as high as it is, and as long as they keep trying to screw their locked-in customer base, the more people will pirate their products. It may not be legal, but it certainly is economically and practically effective. The way they require you to phone in for product key problems actually pushes legitimate consumers to get a pirated copy just so that they won't be hamstrung if there's a critical deadline and they can't get their software to work. I wouldn't mind seeing Adobe fail--they have become far too arrogant and lazy. Rather than destroying the graphic design software industry, their demise would likely reinvigorate it.



Nov 15, 2011 at 02:00 AM
Beni
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p.2 #13 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Anyone had a good look at the subscription pricing? For CS Extended you pay the full price of just buying it outright, but every 20 months! If that's the was PS is going it's going to start being impossibly expensive.


Nov 15, 2011 at 06:53 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #14 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Not so sure that the 'demise' of Adobe would reinvigorate things ... it might make for a Wild West, Gold Rush for all the other players to race to develop things to become the "New Adobe". Exciting times, probably ... more cohesive industry, hmmmm.

While $70 might be a bit on the low side, I agree that they could absolutely strangle their competition via market share dominance if they would get their PS pricing more in line with their LR pricing ... something like $179 for LR & $249 for PS ... with a bundle priced @ $389.

Then, make your upgrade pricing around 75% of your first offering price (each version). If you want to skip a version (i.e. 3-4 years) then your @ only $60-$80/year (PS only), or even if you update every version ($189/PS), you are at $90/year. With those kind of numbers ... very few would ever have any real reason NOT to go with Adobe ... and they'd have a market share 'choke hold' on the industry as never before (and a very different customer sentiment).

There was a time when Adobe could readily command the premium because they were the only game in town, but as their competition is encroaching on them ... and judging by CS6 changes, it looks like the are running out of steam to keep outdistancing their competition by an amount to warrant the premium. If they hold to their "we're Adobe, we're the best, you should pay for the best" approach (i.e. old strategy, new world) it could be trouble. If they can keep outpacing their competition (like Mac seems adept at), then that's another matter, but I see them slowing rather than outpacing ... and they already know it too.

As to the subscription strategy ... I can just hear their competition going ... "Why rent, when you can own?" Their competition keeps getting closer and that "giant sucking sound" of market share erosion could be getting louder and louder.

I just found the subject of my next strategic / competitive advantage presentation for the university.

To Adobe ... invoice pending.

Edited on Nov 15, 2011 at 07:49 AM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2011 at 07:01 AM
wickerprints
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p.2 #15 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


RustyBug wrote:
Not so sure that the 'demise' of Adobe would reinvigorate things ... it might make for a Wild West, Gold Rush for all the other player to race to develop things to become the "New Adobe". Exciting times, probably ... more cohesive industry, hmmmm.


I said "reinvigorate," not "more cohesive." Increased competition makes for more consumer choice. Not necessarily all those choices will be better, but it certainly will have an effect on product pricing as competitors will seek out niches that are not being adequately served. New technologies and features would be offered, as well as more flexible pricing. Consumers may not actually appreciate those choices, as it may become confusing to decide what to use, and deal with issues of software interoperability, but I would imagine that for most small business owners, these problems are preferable to having no choice but to pay Adobe huge sums of money every time a new version comes out.

One thing that people lose sight of when talking about high dollar business software ... is the number of seats that are allocated in conjunction with it. Granted, for most of us, PS is a single seat usage.

I'm not sure you realize just how expensive some of those applications I mentioned actually are. A single-user professional license for Mathematica is nearly $2500. That blows the entire CS5 Premium out of the water at a mere $1900, and you get several apps for that price. A Mathematica site license costs a few orders of magnitude more.

But note that even Wolfram offers a full-featured "Home Edition" for something around 10% of the professional license price. You're not supposed to use it for commercial purposes, but it's perfectly fine for personal and student use (they offer a student license for even less). That's smart. They know there's a market for casual users, like myself, who don't need or want to use their software for business purposes, but are willing to buy it just for its own sake. Adobe, on the other hand, is pretty much all or nothing. To an extent I can understand that, since they correctly assume people would use a personal license to do commercial work. But what they ignore is the idea that by pricing their product significantly lower, they could earn far more revenue from people who are otherwise just pirating their software. They have repeatedly shown they don't care about the small-time consumers. Buy it if you can, otherwise do without.

While $70 might be a bit on the low side, I agree that they could absolutely strangle their competition via market share dominance if they would get their PS pricing more in line with their LR pricing ... something like $179 for LR & $249 for PS ... with a bundle priced @ $389.

Then, make your upgrade pricing @ 75% of your first offering price ... and they'd have a 'choke hold' on the industry as never before.


More aggressive pricing would more or less ensure their market dominance. But it would also make for happier customers, which is ultimately what matters the most. It's not that Adobe's products are bad; it's that their business model is not that dissimilar from those of drug dealers--which causes a great deal of resentment and frustration on the part of users who feel trapped and locked in.

I get that PS is Adobe's bread and butter. I get that they want to price as high as they feel they can get away with, because they rely on revenues from commercial enterprises with entire graphic design department budgets for buying licenses. But in doing so, they totally screw over the small business professionals, such as the self-employed photographer. LR doesn't have the retouching capabilities of PS, and it never will. And then their upgrade pricing and software bundling policies are again a slap in the face. Sure, it might work for them...great. But Adobe is fat and lazy and full of executive managers who are just riding the gravy train built on the backs of countless photographers and small-time designers who got the first hit for free and are now hopelessly addicted to the Adobe workflow.



Nov 15, 2011 at 07:46 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #16 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


I realize that as consumers we'd all like a less costly product, but as a business entity that needs to perpetuate itself (as all good business should), I can't see $70 as being a model for doing so.

So, while $70 might sound good and feel good as backlash to Adobe's mis-steps ... it's great up until the point that the company goes out of business or is forced to reverse course. The last thing you really want is to be vested in a program/workflow/training/etc. and then to have it "die on the vine". Most consumers never think that'll happen to a "Big Company" like Adobe. But if PS is their "Bread & Butter" as alluded to, it warrants safeguarding.

I get the "gravy train" and "laurels" that are behind them and the consumer sentiment that is interwoven therein ... but as a business model, there is no way I could see $70. Have you checked out the price of Capture One, etc. What do you think Capture One's response would be to PS @ $249? Conversely, what do you think Capture One's response would be to PS @ $70?

To my way of thinking, at $249, the competition will push downward as the advantage would be a shift to Adobe and C1 would need to counter. In that regard, Adobe increases market share and puts pressure on their competition. At $70, C1 would not counter ... i.e. "Let Adobe spiral to death, we aren't going to kill ourselves ... we'll just have to ride it out or develop a different kind of counter response ... but not based on pricing that low, it'll be the death of C1."

Granted market share would improve even more so. It might serve to kill off the multitude of entry level players, but their major competition wouldn't bite ... and Adobe' wouldn't be able to sustain $70. Then upon their return to $$$ pricing, the sentiment of Wal-Mart as a small business killer would invade Adobe rather than a good company with fair market products.

In that regard, I don't see $70 being good for Adobe, or ultimately for the consumer. A business must remain viable in order to be valuable in providing goods/service to the consumer. Yes, the consumer always likes a low price, and rarely thinks about the long term well-being of the company ... but the consumer really wants a healthy company in the long run ... just go ask Mac.

The one thing that Adobe would also need to do would be to determine if that coud develop a premium offering that could command a premium price tier for the professional ranks (jv @ massive cloud storage bundling, ColorMunki, web design/hosting, etc.) to provide a 'turn-key' product as a revenue stream rather than using hostage holding as the strategy for the PS's revenue generation. Here, Adobe has a clear cut advantage over their competition because of their economy of scale ... coupled with the "choke hold" they could garner on market share with the pricing structure revamp ... jv vendors would gladly ride Adobe's coat-tails for that kind of market share audience.



Edited on Nov 15, 2011 at 08:35 AM · View previous versions



Nov 15, 2011 at 08:11 AM
wickerprints
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p.2 #17 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


How can you be so certain that $70 is too low? Software is just code. Selling 10 copies versus 100,000 makes almost no difference in overhead. Customer support could be limited or based on a separate subscription pricing.

If I can sell 20x the number of licenses at 10% of the cost, I make twice the revenue. I upsell software support as a separate service and rake in the profit from upgrades after everyone is hooked. I don't see how that's selling yourself out of business. But I don't actually *know* if that would happen.

You and I are operating under assumptions that do not necessarily hold true. I only threw out the $70/10% figure as just an example. I neither expect that price point to be realistic nor unrealistic; profitable nor unprofitable. Neither of us can possibly know for certain that it is or is not an untenable price. My point, however, is not about whether the price should be $70 or $150 or $250. My point is that $700 for PS, and then screwing over CS4 and older owners from upgrade pricing, in light of the easily available and practically more convenient pricing of $0 for a pirated, DRM-free copy, is idiotic. Even legitimate users have an incentive to buy a full price copy and then install the cracked version, so that they don't have to put up with Adobe's licensing BS when something unexpected happens and they can't get PS to work.

As I keep reiterating, what matters most to me is that us photographers aren't being treated like shit. Offer flexible and reasonable pricing and upgrade options, and provide timely customer service. That's not too much to ask for. If you want to turn that position into a squabble over $70 vs. some other price, then you can argue with yourself. I'm not having any of it.



Nov 15, 2011 at 08:33 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #18 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


Not a squabble, per se.

Just an approach to a viable solution to a problem. No argument. I get that you're 'ticked' at Adobe and +1 @ some assumptions ... we have no choice but to make them from our vantage point.

The suggestion that they should reduce their pricing by 90% and expressing a willingness to see them fail as being good for the industry just prompted a little different thought on the matter, that's all.

The improvements to LR also make it a stronger internal competitor to PS. So while it has been long understood that they are complementary products, LR is becoming more of a replacement/alteranative to PS product for many, particularly with the advent of outside competitive complementary products for LR. In that regard, PS pricing more in line with LR could restore the balance of a complentary vs. replacement relationship between their own offerings.

I'm curious though ... if you are suggesting "hook & upsell" ... how much would you charge for an "upsell" if you priced your "hook" at 10%. I'd think you'd need your upsell to cost more than your hook if you were to try and get a total of even 25% ... not like that ever agitates customers.

BTW ... Corel makes a very nice program (PaintShopPro X4) that can be had for that $70 range. If you don't mind not having LAB, and some other industrial components, it is a nice consumer friendly alternative for the non-pro that'll get you layers, etc.



Nov 15, 2011 at 08:48 AM
RDKirk
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p.2 #19 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


What I see happening now.., is going on a five or six year upgrade path.

This will do several things. 1) It will slow down the need to deal with the "changes" being implemented by Adobe. 2) It will slow down the desire to buy a new camera body not supported by ACR, but only slightly so, since we will still be able to process in the manufacturers program and process to a DNG, which will most likely be something that adobe continues to support (DNG format).
3) It will make Adobe rethink their business plan.


Yes, unless...

I've seen what appears to be conflicting signals from Adobe about PS. Back when they released CS5.5, they hinted that they would slow down new version releases. Now they're talking about more fractional version releases.

They could do both: More fractional versions with the normal upgrade price (or no price) between fractional versions and a much slower cycle of full version releases with an upgrade price only from one full version to the next.

That would be okay for me. If full versions were released, say, every 40 months with free fractional versions during that time, I wouldn't mind upgrading each full version.



Nov 15, 2011 at 11:59 AM
RDKirk
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p.2 #20 · Adobe is not going to allow upgrading from older versions with CS6


BTW ... Corel makes a very nice program (PaintShopPro X4) that can be had for that $70 range. If you don't mind not having LAB, and some other industrial components, it is a nice consumer friendly alternative for the non-pro that'll get you layers, etc.

I could easily live without LAB. What I can't live without (the first business benefit I discovered with PS) is the stupendous level of support PS enjoys, both official and unofficial. If I have any problem in PS, I can get a solution within minutes. Other programs...maybe not. Not as fast, not as certain, maybe not at all.

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't run that risk if the cost of PS goes too far out of hand.



Nov 15, 2011 at 12:05 PM
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