BrianO wrote:
You're kidding, right? You can't see how the analogy holds? I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
Obviously I'm not going to sway your belief system, so I'm done here.
Not sure why I'm bothering to extend this stupid thread, but....
The difference is that the hot stove is an empirically verifiable threat with well known harmful effects. "Hell" is by definition a matter of faith -- non-empirical, non-verifiable, irrational. Unlike the stove, there is no external mechanism, outside of faith, by which we can verify even the existence, let alone the harmful effects, of a place you call "Hell."
To compare the two may be a useful theological metaphor, but it is not rational analogic reasoning.
None of which is to say that you don't have every right to pursue your own theological reasoning, and to apply it in your personal life as you see fit. Just don't expect others to necessarily accept your theology as logic -- and don't be surprised if they're a little insulted by your warnings.
And... the owners of B&H are still perfectly within their rights to run their business as they please.
Bullseye5d2 wrote:
closing for that kind of holiday, for periods that long, is disrespectful of their customers who don't believe in that religion (whatever holiday we're talking about)
Announcing it in advance doesn't excuse it.
Why are most of the negative posters on FM from Canada?
Because Canada is a well-known hotbed of belligerent bullies with chips on their shoulders. Why, this one time a B&B owner in Toronto practically pinned me down to feed me another plate of scones. Nest of vipers, that lot.
Smiert Spionam wrote:
Because Canada is a well-known hotbed of belligerent bullies with chips on their shoulders. Why, this one time a B&B owner in Toronto practically pinned me down to feed me another plate of scones. Nest of vipers, that lot.
BrianO wrote:
I don't know if you have children or not, but if you do wouldn't you feel compelled by love to teach them not to touch a hot stove, including telling them what could happen if they do?
laurapalmer wrote:
I'm not sure how you can compare threatening eternal torture in hell with touching a hot stove.
BrianO wrote:
You're kidding, right? You can't see how the analogy holds? I think you're being deliberately obtuse.
Obviously I'm not going to sway your belief system, so I'm done here.
Smiert Spionam wrote:
...The difference is that the hot stove is an empirically verifiable threat with well known harmful effects. "Hell" is by definition a matter of faith -- non-empirical, non-verifiable, irrational. Unlike the stove, there is no external mechanism, outside of faith, by which we can verify even the existence, let alone the harmful effects, of a place you call "Hell."
To compare the two may be a useful theological metaphor, but it is not rational analogic reasoning.
But the analogy still holds.
Laura thinks it's "horrible" to threaten people with hell; I hold that telling them about the dangers of hell and how to avoid it can be an act of love.
Threatening children with stories of the boogy man might be horrible, because the parent knows there's no such thing; but the parent does believe in the hot stove being dangerous. Now, the parent may be wrong; maybe the stove in question isn't plugged in, and posses no danger. Or maybe the parent is delusional, and the "stove" doesn't really exist; but the parent believes it to be real, and so passes on his or her belief. That's not "horrible."
The difference is that the delusional parent can be fact-checked. The difference between knowledge and belief is important, and shouldn't be allowed to be blurred for the sake of theological convenience. I expect rational people (whether believers or not) to understand the difference.
Observable facts in the material world (hot stoves) are not the same as matters of faith (hell), which makes your analogy only useful in the broadest metaphoric sense. It is NOT analogic reasoning. If you were standing at my door warning me to repent based on your belief in the dangers of hell, I'd thank you for your concern, wish you a nice day, and go back to my business. If you were basing your claims on your "knowledge" of the dangers of hell, I would conclude that you were every bit as delusional as a parent warning a child about an imaginary stove.
Hey, if you can lie to kids about a big fat jolly man coming by in a reindeer-chariot, throwing wrapped gifts down chimneys, then lying about hell is fine too. Having to tell kids they'll go to hell if they didn't behave is not very effective. Teach them morality - "Treat others as you'd want them to treat you" and you won't need the threat of hell. That's why I threw away all the "religious lessons" I learned growing up, around 5 or 6 years back, and started thinking for myself - and have been agnostic since. I don't feel any joy or sorrow when jews/christians get persecuted by muslims or muslims get persecuted by christians or jews or hindus persecute muslims or ... add all the possible combinations. I feel sad when people are persecuted - don't look at their religion. I think organized religion is the #1 reason for so much hatred in the world.
But ... if B&H is already opened after the holidays, I take no further interest in mucking up this thread with my infinite wisdom!!!!
Smiert Spionam wrote:
The difference is that the delusional parent can be fact-checked. The difference between knowledge and belief is important, and shouldn't be allowed to be blurred for the sake of theological convenience. I expect rational people (whether believers or not) to understand the difference.
... If you were standing at my door warning me to repent based on your belief in the dangers of hell, I'd thank you for your concern, wish you a nice day, and go back to my business. If you were basing your claims on your "knowledge" of the dangers of hell, I would conclude that you were every bit as delusional as a parent warning a child about an imaginary stove....Show more →
And I expect rational people to be able to follow a point. The point of my argument with Laura isn't about whether or not there is proof of hell, but of whether telling someone that I believe they are damned if they aren't saved is a "horrible thing." That is all. From your statement highlighted here, I believe that you understand where I would be coming from, and she doesn't.
nugeny wrote:
The bottomline is the bottom line. As long it is ok, observing the lord's days is just fine.
Watch out, when thre bottom line starts to sink, new explanations will be invented to open the store 24/7.
Never going to happen. Our owner's faith is stronger than your cynicism.
BrianO wrote:
And I expect rational people to be able to follow a point. The point of my argument with Laura isn't about whether or not there is proof of hell, but of whether telling someone that I believe they are damned if they aren't saved is a "horrible thing." That is all. From your statement highlighted here, I believe that you understand where I would be coming from, and she doesn't.
I understand where you are coming from, and it is, as noted by others, a place existing solely in your imagination.
Have we lost our sense of morality? How is it not horrible to threaten someone with hell? How is it not horrible to give someone rules which are impossible to live up to, and then telling them the punishment for breaking those rules will be an eternity of torture? If you are a parent, would you say to your child, "I love you, but if you break my impossible list of rules, I will not only stop loving you, but I will send you to burn, conscious, for all of eternity." These are not things a loving person, god, or friend would say to another being. In responding to you if you threatened me with such terrible things, I would certainly not be so kind as Smiert Spionam in thanking you for your concern.
drew.bowser wrote:
Once again B&H has lost my recent 1k+ purchase. I know they are announcing their closings, but seriously...Wednesday to Sunday? They must be losing a lot of revenue for these closings.
Now if only ANY store in the state of missouri stocked the 135L...
Well I do not believe in the invisible friend in the sky. However if they want to close to observe their religious customs and beliefs good for them. It is their store and they can do and should do what they know is right.
I am sure you take time off to be with your family. Why do you schedule vacations? Your clients might need you. How much money do you lose on your vacation?
henryp wrote:
Never going to happen. Our owner's faith is stronger than your cynicism.
Henry Posner B&H Photo-Video
That is a good answer. I need to remember it for other circumstances. However, B&H will stay in business because it provides reasonable prices and fine service.
Having to tell kids they'll go to hell if they didn't behave is not very effective. Teach them morality - "Treat others as you'd want them to treat you" and you won't need the threat of hell. That's why I threw away all the "religious lessons" I learned growing up, around 5 or 6 years back, and started thinking for myself - and have been agnostic since. I don't feel any joy or sorrow when jews/christians get persecuted by muslims or muslims get persecuted by christians or jews or hindus persecute muslims or ... add all the possible combinations. I feel sad when people are persecuted - don't look at their religion. I think organized religion is the #1 reason for so much hatred in the world. 
