laurapalmer
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BrianO wrote:
I disagree. Leading by example, being open to questions, and -- yes -- even being a little pushy isn't infringing on another's rights. It's exactly the same as what you are doing here: free speech. It only becomes infringement on their rights if done by force or coercion, etc. I can knock on your door, as long as I leave if told to do so.
I suppose we are getting into semantics here, so we can agree to disagree on what constitutes infringement. My argument is that religion is not happy to exist in its current space; it attempts to impose itself on others. As for force or coercion, I can only say that I am lucky enough not to be living in a time (or place in the present time) in which religion does impose itself by force.
BrianO wrote:
I don't know if you have children or not, but if you do wouldn't you feel compelled by love to teach them not to touch a hot stove, including telling them what could happen if they do?
I'm not sure how you can compare threatening eternal torture in hell with touching a hot stove. My argument is this: I have been burned by a hot object, and thus have the evidence (personal experience, even) to advise someone against doing the same. You, nor I, nor anyone has ever experienced the afterlife and come back to report their findings. Threatening someone with something so horrible should not be based on fictional stories written centuries ago.
BrianO wrote:
Don't blame God for man's failings. Sure, Muslims are killing Muslims, Protestants and Catholics in Britain have done so, etc. But saying one is killing in the name of God doesn't make it so. And lest you try to ignore it, let me remind you that athiests also kill people. The on-going genocide in Tibet by the Chinese government trying to irradicate Tibetan Buddhists is but one example.
So, your arguments do not persuade.
I am not saying "one is killing in the name of god." I am saying that they are killing because of religion.
Just a few examples from the Bible:
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
...everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
... and a few from the Koran:
O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh
with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. -
9:73
Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from
obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the
unbelievers. - 9:2-3
O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends
of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them.
God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Yes, atheists do kill people. I will, however, quote Steven Weinberg: "Without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
I don't really expect to persuade people. Rational arguments don't usually work on religious people. Otherwise, there wouldn't be religious people.
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