D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Moderated by: guardian

Visit the FM Store · Image Upload · Buy & Sell
FM Forum Rules
Nikon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums | Nikon-mount SLRs | Join Image Upload

2 3 … 5 6 end

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #1 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

I am looking for a near-London based D3 or D700 user who is interested in testing a D3 or D700 against a 1Ds3 at high ISOs. My 1Ds3 is surprisingly acceptable at ISO 12800, but of course I have to do pushing and noise reduction in post. Conventional wisdom is that the D3/700 has no peers at these speeds, and I'm curious to assess how big the gap is. I haven't found a website which tests crops at the same magnification, or tries pushing the 1Ds3 beyond its stated limits.

I did start a thread about this over on the Canon forum, but unfortunately it hasn't garnered any contributions of actual direct comparisons.

Any takers?

An hour or two of testing could be followed by beer - I'll buy the first round.

Richard

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 07:16 PM

Aug 31, 2008 at 07:12 PM

intero
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #2 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Dang, shame you're in London. This Bostonian could go for a beer ...

-Tom

Aug 31, 2008 at 07:43 PM

Avi B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #3 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Please explain your testing methodologies. Just curious.

Aug 31, 2008 at 07:46 PM

molson
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #4 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Just another disgruntled Canon fanboy, who thinks any test a Canon doesn't win must somehow be unfair...

Aug 31, 2008 at 08:06 PM

ajamess
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #5 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

molson wrote:
Just another disgruntled Canon fanboy, who thinks any test a Canon doesn't win must somehow be unfair...

Huh, and here I thought he was just curious...

Aug 31, 2008 at 08:19 PM

jmcfadden
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #6 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

The King is Dead , long live the King

such a thinly veiled trooler, you have gone on ad naeseum about the "king" for pages and pages, and with an a priori such as your how could a Nikon ever hope to satisfy the fan boy in you

Dude , you have a great camera , just let it be. I could care less if there is something in the canon camp that does as well as my D3 or even better. It satisfies my need in spades

Aug 31, 2008 at 08:22 PM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #7 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Avi B wrote:
Please explain your testing methodologies. Just curious.

Take the same picture with the same lens at the same aperture setting and shutter speed, in moderate light and very low light. Make the best large print you can from each. See which is better.

Aug 31, 2008 at 09:19 PM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #8 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

jmcfadden wrote:
The King is Dead , long live the King

such a thinly veiled trooler, you have gone on ad naeseum about the "king" for pages and pages, and with an a priori such as your how could a Nikon ever hope to satisfy the fan boy in you

Dude , you have a great camera , just let it be. I could care less if there is something in the canon camp that does as well as my D3 or even better. It satisfies my need in spades

If this subject bores you, read another thread rather than poisoning this one. I am not a fanboy, I use whatever gear suits me best. I don't care about brands. I am genuinely interested in this question. I have every expectation that the D3 will produce better results, in terms of noise suppression and usability of images. I want to compare the low light performance of these two cameras. That comparison did not emerge on the other thread, so I came here to find a London D3 or D700 user to meet up with. Why must you resort to insulting me, without any provocation whatsoever?

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 09:30 PM

Aug 31, 2008 at 09:29 PM

Tucker Kopf
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #9 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Best of luck finding someone. I am sure your results will be interesting to say the least!

Aug 31, 2008 at 09:33 PM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #10 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

molson wrote:
Just another disgruntled Canon fanboy, who thinks any test a Canon doesn't win must somehow be unfair...

I am not a Canon fanboy, and I'm certainly not disgruntled but I haven't seen any very helpful comparisons between these two cameras at very high ISO. Both Luminous Landscape and DPReview compare 100% crops from the two cameras which means they are at very different magnifications. I want to see a more accurate comparison. I don't expect the 1Ds3 to 'win', but I do want to see the extent of the difference. What is so unreasonable and fanboyish about that?

Aug 31, 2008 at 09:57 PM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #11 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

OK - I get the message. I'll see if I can borrow one from my dealer. Things have changed around here.

Aug 31, 2008 at 10:03 PM

louis fusco
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #12 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Richard, can you post your picture results, when you get them, as i think there is something to you ideas on small pixels and noise. can't help you as i haven't ordered my 700 and i don't visit London.

the boys round here might have been scared off by some social interaction ;o)

Aug 31, 2008 at 10:20 PM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #13 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

louis fusco wrote:
Richard, can you post your picture results, when you get them...

Sure Louis, it'll be a pleasure. If the D3 mashes the 1Ds3 then I'll post here in the Nikon forum, and if the 1Ds3 is nearly as good as the D3 then I'll post in the Canon forum ;-)

Aug 31, 2008 at 10:25 PM

AJ Nadershahi
Online
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #14 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Post it here as well.

If your tests are performed evenly and as accurately as possible, then there should be no reason to dispute the results.

Good luck!!

Edited on Aug 31, 2008 at 11:49 PM

Aug 31, 2008 at 11:49 PM

Avi B
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #15 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Poor guy, seems like a no-win proposition here...

Ah well, I'd be interested to see the results myself.

Aug 31, 2008 at 11:50 PM

jmcfadden
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #16 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

are you actually re-writing history , shall i dig up the "king" thread that you had in the canon forum and went on and on proclaiming Your conclusions ( and dismissing any which were not aligned with yours, namely that the D3 was the best of the current crop of cameras in this area) for weeks that the 1DsMKIII was the "king" of high ISO and you challenged the common conclusions of many various test sites as deficient in their methodology? hmmmmmmmmm

that never read like curiosity over there and it does not smell right over here either

if you had not proven to be such an apologist earlier you would find we are curious here too

J

Edited by jmcfadden on Sep 01, 2008 at 12:30 AM GMT

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 12:30 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 12:15 AM

sjms
Offline
Buy and Sell: On

p.1 #17 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

no. if i were in the london area i would help him in this situation. i can appreciate someone who will make a serious effort to the usual lip service that has been passed around on these forums throughout the years. i really do hope that there is someone in the area that could help settle this. i respect him for trying to make his point in the proper way

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 12:35 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 12:28 AM

Andre Labonte
Offline
Image Upload: Off

p.1 #18 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

brainiac wrote:
I am looking for a near-London based D3 or D700 user who is interested in testing a D3 or D700 against a 1Ds3 at high ISOs. My 1Ds3 is surprisingly acceptable at ISO 12800, but of course I have to do pushing and noise reduction in post. Conventional wisdom is that the D3/700 has no peers at these speeds, and I'm curious to assess how big the gap is. I haven't found a website which tests crops at the same magnification, or tries pushing the 1Ds3 beyond its stated limits.

I did start a thread about this over on the Canon forum, but unfortunately it hasn't garnered any contributions of actual direct comparisons.

Any takers?

An hour or two of testing could be followed by beer - I'll buy the first round.

Richard

You get +marks in my book for wanting to do a real study. I hope you get the chance. Maybe you could rent a D3 and a comparable lens.

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:00 AM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #19 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

jmcfadden wrote:
that never read like curiosity over there and it does not smell right over here either

Here is a quote from my comment which started that thread:
> I think 1ds3 detail is still fairly impressive at 12800. Maybe the D3 is just the prince of high iso, not the king. It would be fun to see a no punches pulled comparison.

Smells like curiosity to me. Or maybe I'll just tell you straight: I am curious to do this comparison, and would be grateful if anyone in the London area who has a D3 or D700 would be willing to share a beer and a simple camera test. Didn't I already say that? Why are you questioning it? Do you think when a London photographer offers to meet up that I will change my mind? I really don't understand this hostility to an open minded effort to at least establish whether it's misleading to compare 100% crops from 12 and 21 megapixel cameras. I expect the D3 to be better in terms of noise suppression, but not by very much. Since none of the popular review sites have done this comparison, I don't see any alternative to having a go myself.

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 01:06 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:03 AM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #20 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

intero wrote:
Dang, shame you're in London. This Bostonian could go for a beer ...

It is a shame. I like Boston beer, too.

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:10 AM

jmcfadden
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #21 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

if i were there i would gladly hook up at least for a free ale

you are being disingenuous tho if you are claiming "neutrality" in your thread, that really is the crux of it for me. I always like to have fun with tests, but you have asserted things as truth in that thread like 'nikon Always uses NR on their high iso shots, it canot be turned "off"' or things to that effect. But it is also a known fact that one of the compelling reasons canon pursued CMOS in the first place was so they could use DIGIC processing for on site at the pixel level "massaging" of the data to reduce noise, so where is the nod that recognizes that fact?

We have bowed and kissed the proverbial ring for many years over our choices of cameras , if you had been told on so many occasions that "your" gear trumped ours in one regard or another you would realize how tiring that really is. The tide has turned , and on the last frontier of dominance by canon it has been challenged and really we are ALL winners in the end.

If you had not had that threat things would be different , but you did and would you insist on downsizing your files or uprezzing the D3 files to satiate your curiosity? is it your way and none other in the testing?

J

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 01:16 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:13 AM

jmcfadden
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #22 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

MY last comment , i hope you find someone for the test, i do wish it were me , tho i do not regularly shoot above 1600 i have made some amazing prints at 6400 and am truly loving the new SB900 flash controlling my more difficult to configure pair of SB800s

cheers

J

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:25 AM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #23 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

jmcfadden wrote:
if i were there i would gladly hook up at least for a free ale

You'ld be welcome to it.

> you are being disingenuous tho if you are claiming "neutrality" in your thread, that really is the crux of it for me.

It's not about my neutrality, it's about the neutrality of the test, i.e. doing the test in a scientific way. IMO comparing 100% crops is thoroughly misleading when the files have radically different numbers of pixels. My intention, in suggesting comparing prints, is to remove the confusing bit so that we don't have to argue about the misleading error of comparing files at different magnifications.

> I always like to have fun with tests, but you have asserted things as truth in that thread like 'nikon Always uses NR on their high iso shots, it canot be turned "off"' or things to that effect.

I stand corrected, although every sample I have ever seen posted online appears to have had some kind of chroma-blending, so I hope you can understand the source of my confusion on that.

> But it is also a known fact that one of the compelling reasons canon pursued CMOS in the first place was so they could use DIGIC processing for on site at the pixel level "massaging" of the data to reduce noise, so where is the nod that recognizes that fact?

As I have said before, both files should be processed as they would be in real life use, i.e. optimally. I would suggest DPP and NX, as the least controversial options, since they are each supplied by the manufacturers.

> We have bowed and kissed the proverbial ring for many years over our choices of cameras , if you had been told on so many occasions that "your" gear trumped ours in one regard or another you would realize how tiring that really is. The tide has turned , and on the last frontier of dominance by canon it has been challenged and really we are winners in the end.

I am sorry, but that's your personal issue. Let's leave angst and envy out of this, and understand that brands and products do not define us.

> If you had not had that threat things would be different , but you did and would you insist on downsizing your files or uprezzing the D3 files to satiate your curiosity? or is it your way and none other in the testing?

I expect that I and my co-tester could each keep the files we generate and do with them what we like. If I post stuff online to share (kindly!) then I will make clear exactly how I have done the comparison, including the process I used for noise reduction in each file. I think it would be a good idea to compare both by resizing the D3 file to 21 megapixel, and also resizing the 1Ds3 file to 12 megapixel. That way we can fairly examine noise crops in both ways, even though the second method may handicap the 1Ds3 file by throwing away any detail advantage.

But one thing is for sure: I will not compare the files at 100% without resizing one or the other so that there is parity in magnification. To compare at 100% without resizing is subliminally misleading, and non-neutral, because it favours the less magnified image, i.e. the one with fewer pixels.

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 01:54 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 01:31 AM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #24 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

Avi B wrote:
Please explain your testing methodologies. Just curious.

Avi, since that can of worms has been opened, I've had to go into more detail as you can see in the above comment. Your question now deserves a more thorough answer:

- When it comes to making on-screen comparisons, I won't compare 100% crops at different magnifications, because I think it is a very misleading arithmetical error.

- At very high ISOs, I shoot raw, to be able to use the full 14 bits when pushing (the 1Ds3 files will need to be pushed since it has no 6400 and 12800 settings).

- I typically apply noise reduction (Photoshop dust & scratches) to high ISO files before handing them over to clients, and I think it's sensible in a real world test to allow each file to have noise-reduction applied, according to the file's needs, in NX/DPP and/or other programme, e.g. Photoshop.

- The same lens and aperture should be used on both cameras, with the help of a Nikon->EOS adaptor, so that light levels are identical.

- The same shutter speed should be used, to ensure we are seeing identical exposures.

- Photoshop may be used on the 1Ds3 file to fine tune colour balance and contrast so that it matches as closely as possible the D3 file (a concession to the Nikon, since such adjustments are lossy).

Edited on Sep 01, 2008 at 02:13 AM

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:09 AM

brainiac
Offline
Image Upload: On

p.1 #25 · D3 v 1Ds3 at ISO 12800

I should point out that I am well aware that the D3's high ISO settings and in-camera noise reduction are a huge convenience for any photographer in a hurry, especially photojournalists and sports shooters, and that makes the 1Ds3 a much less appealing camera for those photographers.

I simply want to compare best possible high iso output from the two cameras.

Sep 01, 2008 at 02:21 AM


FM Forums \| Nikon-mount SLRs \| Join Image Upload 1 2 3 … 5 6 end