An official Canon teaser

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Archive 2006 · An official Canon teaser

DaDane
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p.11 #1 · An official Canon teaser

Where do you see the sell-rate of the different cameraes? (jschulst350d quoted 150k/month for 350)

Aug 06, 2006 at 09:35 PM

DaDane
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p.11 #2 · An official Canon teaser

RDKirk wrote:
While I don't know the cost of each of the models (cost of goods sold), the profit contribution may be much closer model to model in an absolute sense even if the volumes are not.

Or maybe not. Canon will have sales goals for each model and may not expect nearly the same profit from the high ranges than the lower ranges (in fact, sales figures they've released for years have confirmed that they've always made most of their money from the cheaper cameras).

It's bad marketing and business for either Nikon or Canon to ignore any part of the total market. Their high-end visibility sells more low-end cameras. Canon's goal will be to have the greater overall share of the entire DSLR market.
What's more, - the 1D owners of today are the 350D owners of yesterday. Not entirely of course, - but still. Read the thread about how people went to be Canon users.

I believe that the low-end is very important. For different reasons, - first off these people still buy accesories like lenses, flash etc. A guy from my church has a 350D with several pretty nice lenses (a wide angel, - I think 10-22, 70-200F2.8 (not IS) and he might have more, - not sure).
Probably more important, - once you buy a camera you are somewhat likely to stick with that, - of course your likelyness will increase with more usable stuff (nice lenses, flash, etc.)
Last, - people influence each other. We are now three people in my church having DSLR. All three of us have Canon. As mentioned one have a 350, another on a 1DmkII and I have the 20D. All of us have a somewhat nice setup of lenses. Mine is a Sigma 24-70, Canon 70-200F4, 135 softfocus, 50 1.8, Sigma 20 1.8.
If someone new wants a DSLR they obviously will ask one or two of us. And what do we tell?

But now, - at least in Denmark where I live the Nikon as well as the 3.rd-tier is somewhat cheaper.

The 350D is approximately 5200 dkr (870 US$), the Nikon 50 is just 3995 (670 US$). That does make a difference when people starts out.

So for me a dirt-cheap 3000D will be a very obvious choice for Canon. It might have just 6 MP, just ISO 1600 etc. And most people buying it might want to change quite soon, - still it will be a very nice card for Canon to play.

I am of course very aware that the people buying a dirt cheap 3000D will also spend less money on lenses! Still I think that most of these people will be loyal too.

Aug 06, 2006 at 10:10 PM

Sprout Crumble
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p.11 #3 · An official Canon teaser

Well said. A cheap base-model Canon would be great for all the reasons you stated. The D50 has been a great seller and the Pentax models are also very strong sellers in many markets. They're cheap. Canons 350D requires that you're a little more certain that you want to get into DSLR photography. Canon need an impulse buy body for the masses.

Aug 07, 2006 at 02:48 AM

Pell
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p.11 #4 · An official Canon teaser

I can not see Canon venturing in the Medium Format territory. I predict something drastic.

New Sensor, New bodies (built in IS like Sony) , New Lens Line-ups with higher res optics. (with built in IS, canon will beable to still charge a mint for quality glass since the quality will be higher) .

Most of us are who Canon markets for. People who need the 'latest and greatest' making them forget their current gear still does a fantastic job and new gear will perhaps marginally improve your output. But who knows

Aug 07, 2006 at 03:26 AM

Kamil Kisiel
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p.11 #5 · An official Canon teaser

Sometimes people seem to forget Canon is a Japanese company. Consumers in Japan are *far* more loyal to brands than consumers in North America and in Europe. A complete "brand image" is extremely important to a company so that consumers will buy in to the brand and then continue buying the products for years after. Even though some models of camera (say for example perhaps the 5D?) may not be as popular or profitable as others (maybe the 350D?) they would continue to be produced to keep up the image and market coverage. Additionally, Japanese companies tend to be far more forward thinking than North American ones and it's not unusual for many of them to have extremely-long term (50 to 100 year) plans so it's a pretty good assumption that many of Canon's decisions are based on some long term goals rather than purely for short term profit. I know the company I am working for (of which, incidentally, Canon is a customer..) operates this way and since Canon is an older and much larger company I wouldn't be surprised if they do too.

Aug 07, 2006 at 03:51 AM

RDKirk
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p.11 #6 · An official Canon teaser

kisielk wrote:
Sometimes people seem to forget Canon is a Japanese company.

Mr Iwashita, Canon's CEO of their imaging division, has said in interviews that Canon is a traditionally consensus-driven company, which would also mean they are more likely to pursue the vision arrived at by consensus than to attempt to react spontaneously to a new camera released by a competitor (especially since pursuing that vision has put them at the top of the heap).

It's very instructive to read the story of the development T-90 in the Canon Museum web site--especially when one realizes that most of that story occurs after the introduction of the autofocusing Maxxum 7000, which had rendered the T-90 obsolete before it even reached the assembly lines. But Canon released it anyway.

Aug 08, 2006 at 01:41 AM

EB-1
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p.11 #7 · An official Canon teaser

Page 32 now. Does anyone know anything more defintive than on page 1?

EB

Aug 08, 2006 at 01:55 AM

Yakim Peled
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p.11 #8 · An official Canon teaser

As I reported, the teaser was removed.
I spoke to the site manager and he told me that it was a decision made in Canon Japan. He does not know why.

Aug 08, 2006 at 06:33 AM

Carl Auer
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p.11 #9 · An official Canon teaser

forget the rumors, teasers, and all....I hope you are staying safe and keeping your head down Yakim

Aug 08, 2006 at 05:12 PM

tony404
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p.11 #10 · An official Canon teaser

what did I miss I clicked on the link and saw hebrew lol

Aug 08, 2006 at 11:09 PM

markshaxted
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p.11 #11 · An official Canon teaser

tony404...

Canon announced a new 1Ds Mk III @ 22Mp
a new 22Mp MF back 48x36mm
a 50D
a 5D Mk II
and a new budget Digital Legend

Well, according to the rumours, anyway

Aug 08, 2006 at 11:27 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.11 #12 · An official Canon teaser

Thanks for the head-up Carl. It's really terrible here. You never know what and when something or someone going to hit you. Actually, this forum is my escape from reality.

Aug 09, 2006 at 09:29 AM

Ombligotron
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p.11 #13 · An official Canon teaser

On a serious note, I would love to see canon get into medium format. Hell, I would love to see Canon make up their own format for giggles and market an all-digital line. Conforming to formats like 135 or 645 or 67 is a concept that has been digitally obsoleted; Phase One backs are only 6x6 because that's what the existing system has. If Canon is building a system from scratch, might as well create whatever format they want. It could be based on the golden ratio, or it could be specifically designed for highest wafer density in manufacturing.

Aug 09, 2006 at 12:08 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.11 #14 · An official Canon teaser

I just don't understand what Canon has to gain by entering the MF market. Is it such a big market or with high profit margins? I am no expert but I think the answer to both questions is 'No'.

Aug 09, 2006 at 01:05 PM

markshaxted
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p.11 #15 · An official Canon teaser

Yakim. I do agree with you.

From Canons points of view, though, they may feel that they can entice EOS (IDs) users into the MF arena. If the price is right of course.

I really don't think it will happen though.

Aug 09, 2006 at 01:14 PM

RDKirk
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p.11 #16 · An official Canon teaser

Yakim Peled wrote:
I just don't understand what Canon has to gain by entering the MF market. Is it such a big market or with high profit margins? I am no expert but I think the answer to both questions is 'No'.

I'd have to agree. I can't see how they would present the proposition to stockholders of moving from the top position in a profitable market to the "new kid on the block" position in a questionable market.

If they could market an interchangeable back that would fit existing medium format cameras, that would be an additional product that might be salable to the stockholders. If they could market a larger format DSLR that somehow still accepted EF lenses, that might be salable to stockholders.

But a completely new system in a market that appears moribund doesn't seem like something that would sell to the stockholders.

Aug 09, 2006 at 01:26 PM

Ombligotron
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p.11 #17 · An official Canon teaser

First off, MF is a DSLR. Stop thinking of it as a market to enter and start thinking of it as a market to create. Apple was a "new kid" when the entered the Creative-dominated but lagging world of HDD based music players.

If Canon can continue production on TSE lenses and the 20Da, then the concept isn't terribly far-fetched. There are MF systems out there with 5 lenses and under; it wouldn't be quite the massive RnD effort that EF was. I think they could build a 645 system, make 3 lenses, and sell the body for 10k street and it would be a success. Thin, hand-holdable body ala Mamiya RF, auto focus and image processing ported from Digic.

They don't even have to market it as/for "medium format", they could just market it as a bigger sensor, because that's all it is. APS-C and EF-S are the exact same thing in a different direction. APS-C is built for EF-S but has compatibility with EF, why not give the 645 camera high-speed crop mode compatibility with EF? I'd rather see that than the shockingly unnecessary 22mpx 1Ds. It's not like the 1Ds3 is going to be a sales leader anyways.

Stockholders want to see more Rebels and EF-S zooms; hopefully someone is still forward-thinking enough to innovate.

Aug 09, 2006 at 02:48 PM

24Peter
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p.11 #18 · An official Canon teaser

RDKirk wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
I just don't understand what Canon has to gain by entering the MF market. Is it such a big market or with high profit margins? I am no expert but I think the answer to both questions is 'No'.

I'd have to agree. I can't see how they would present the proposition to stockholders of moving from the top position in a profitable market to the "new kid on the block" position in a questionable market.

If they could market an interchangeable back that would fit existing medium format cameras, that would be an additional product that might be salable to the stockholders. If they could market a larger format DSLR that somehow still accepted EF lenses, that might be salable to stockholders.

But a completely new system in a market that appears moribund doesn't seem like something that would sell to the stockholders.

First off, they don't have to sell anything to shareholders. Management makes the business decisions, including which areas to get into. Directors are elected by shareholders every couple of years but there's no requirement shareholders approve anything having to do with day to day business. Second, with that mentality, Canon would have never gotten into half their business lines including printers and probably even digital cameras. Is MF a niche? Yes. Would it bring down the company if they failed at it? Highly doubtful. Could it bring some additional marketing cache to the company amongst pros? Sure. Personally I hope they do it soon (if they haven't already started RD).

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:03 PM

DrPablo
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p.11 #19 · An official Canon teaser

Ombligotron wrote:
First off, MF is a DSLR.

There are MF SLRs, rangefinders, view cameras, and TLRs.

There's almost no reason for a digital MF camera to be an SLR. It would make much more sense to make a rangefinder. You could have live LCD preview, smaller design, and more handholdability (without the mirror slap) that way.

I also wouldn't jump at 645 size, which honestly wouldn't be a huge advance. If they make a 6x7 or 6x6 and price it near where the 1Ds Mk II started out it would have a market. The hardcore MF purists who don't associate Canon with MF might not go for it, but there are indeed many pros reluctantly going from film MF to digital SF in the 1Ds Mk II.

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:06 PM

Ombligotron
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p.11 #20 · An official Canon teaser

DrPablo wrote:
Ombligotron wrote:
First off, MF is a DSLR.

???

There are MF SLRs, rangefinders, view cameras, and TLRs.

Got me there. I was implying that MF can be a DSLR; I think the line would probably be blurred between what most people think of as a "DSLR" (APS-C, APS-H, 135) and what most people call "medium format".

You don't have to sell me on a digital 645 RF, that camera would be (relatively) small and absolutely incredible. Unfortunately, if MF is a market risk, RF is compounding the issue.

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:10 PM

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p.11 #21 · An official Canon teaser

Canon could do whatever they want, but at the same time risk doing the whold FD to EOS swap again... that pissed alot of people off, and there are some that are still bitter over it.... I know that if they introduced something totally new and incompatible with the almost ~$10k of gear i have, i'd be a little mad. I can't afford to get into a new system, and frankly i don't care for one. I think i speak for most of us when i say we're happy with our EOS stuff being constrained by the 135 format.

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:30 PM

Ombligotron
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p.11 #22 · An official Canon teaser

That's like feeling threatend by the Ixus. A move in a new direction wouldn't have to supercede EOS; more likely it would complement it.

Edited by Ombligotron on Aug 09, 2006 at 09:38 AM GMT

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:34 PM

DrPablo
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p.11 #23 · An official Canon teaser

Perhaps, but when you think about it the compact P+S digicams are nothing short of poor man's rangefinders -- and look how popular they are!

If you took, say, the 1Ds Mark II's sensor, stuck it in a point and shoot body, and closely calibrated the optical viewfinder to the lenses, you have a rangefinder.

I think high price points are the really big risk. I'm sure Canon makes the bulk of its money from selling Powershots and Rebel XTs. Oh yeah, and copy machines. The pro cameras are a drop in the bucket for them. I'm sure there are 100 people who spend $500 on a point and shoot for every one who spends $5000 on a 1D Mk IIN.

So for Canon to put in the R+D to sell an expensive, elite product that few people will need / want / buy is pretty risky.

And for those of us snobbish enough to look down our noses at even the 1Ds Mark II, there's still film. I was on the verge of buying a 5D and decided to get a 4x5 large format setup instead -- and I'm loving my 400 megapixel scans

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:35 PM

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p.11 #24 · An official Canon teaser

ok- if "APS Big" was marketed -along side- of EOS, that's one thing... but i think they'd need to be REALLY dedicated to it, and show lots of new stuff to win people over.
1) it wouldn't be cheap (the body)
2) i'm sure the glass wouldnt' be cheap
3) unless it was an interly new animal (bigger sensor with awesome ISO 3200), there's no need.

Small market, big risk.

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:40 PM

Ombligotron
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p.11 #25 · An official Canon teaser

DrPablo wrote:
Perhaps, but when you think about it the compact P+S digicams are nothing short of poor man's rangefinders -- and look how popular they are!

haha, excellent point.

Aug 09, 2006 at 03:48 PM


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