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Archive 2013 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses
  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.91 #1 · p.91 #1 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


KiboOst wrote:
Remember my test was 400mm with target distance at 100meters if not more. As the distance increase the effect as vibration induce angle movement, the nearest the subject the less effect is seen. Thanks Fred for the test, show less effect but it is there in sensitive shutter times.

Fred, if you could try vertical grip with RJ collar mount, both horizontal and vertical, seeing if it doesn't make handling awkward and still can mount it on tripod, I would really appreciate. If it does, I think I will change my metabones for it.


KiboOst,
The vertical grip can be attached with the RJ collar mount. It can also be mounted in portrait orientation on the tripod. However, it can't be mounted in landscape orientation as the collar is not long/forward enough.



Dec 15, 2013 at 05:30 PM
artd
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p.91 #2 · p.91 #2 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


AGeoJO wrote:
No, mine doesn't have any of those issues that you described. Their original adapter was designed for the APS-C NEX. Recently, with the introduction of the A7r, they made the modification to accommodate the FF format. I specified and stressed that on my order to make sure that they sent me the right adapter for the FF A7r.

They sent me the right one, it works just fine through 11mm of shift, but when it gets to 12mm I get a black strip running along one edge of the frame. It's like the baffle is 1mm too narrow.



Dec 15, 2013 at 05:45 PM
AGeoJO
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p.91 #3 · p.91 #3 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


artd wrote:
I was doing some testing today with the RJC adapter and the 24TS-E. I noticed that at full shift in either direction, there is mechanical vignetting (it appears at the top of the frame if shifted down, and the bottom of the frame if shifted up). I have an old "dumb" EF to e-mount adapter which I tried and it doesn't show this effect.

Wondering, have you noticed this with your adapter? I'm wondering if this is a design flaw or if I got one slightly out of spec.



AGeoJO wrote:
No, mine doesn't have any of those issues that you described. Their original adapter was designed for the APS-C NEX. Recently, with the introduction of the A7r, they made the modification to accommodate the FF format. I specified and stressed that on my order to make sure that they sent me the right adapter for the FF A7r.



artd wrote:
They sent me the right one, it works just fine through 11mm of shift, but when it gets to 12mm I get a black strip running along one edge of the frame. It's like the baffle is 1mm too narrow.



I don't know what else to tell you. Fred just received his. Maybe you can ask him nicely to do a quick test ?



Dec 15, 2013 at 06:19 PM
artd
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p.91 #4 · p.91 #4 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


AGeoJO wrote:


I don't know what else to tell you. Fred just received his. Maybe you can ask him nicely to do a quick test ?

Fred, could you please check for this issue with your copy? The vignetting starts showing up around 11mm, and also becomes more evident the more I stop down. I also found this morning that's it's even more apparent in left and right shifting.

Here's an example at f/13 with the 24 TS-E shifted up 12mm:
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/temp_example/12mm_shift_up.jpg

And here's an example with the lens shifted fully to the right:
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/temp_example/12mm_shift_right.jpg







Dec 15, 2013 at 06:56 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.91 #5 · p.91 #5 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


artd,
So far I tested the R.J. adapter with the TS-E 17mm. It should show even more mechanical vignetting on that lens but I don't see any. However I see other issues with this adapter like higher CA and somehow softer extreme shifted edges when compared to the Metabones.
I did a single test with both adapters and the Canon 5D Mark III with the same TS-E lens.



Dec 15, 2013 at 09:19 PM
artd
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p.91 #6 · p.91 #6 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Fred Miranda wrote:
artd,
So far I tested the R.J. adapter with the TS-E 17mm. It should show even more mechanical vignetting on that lens but I don't see any. However I see other issues with this adapter like higher CA and somehow softer extreme shifted edges when compared to the Metabones.
I did a single test with both adapters and the Canon 5D Mark III with the same TS-E lens.

Thanks Fred. (When I tried with my 17mm, I got about the same amount of mechanical vignetting.)

Interesting too about the different adapters varying in CA.



Dec 15, 2013 at 09:31 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.91 #7 · p.91 #7 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


artd wrote:
Thanks Fred. (When I tried with my 17mm, I got about the same amount of mechanical vignetting.)

Interesting too about the different adapters varying in CA.


Yes, my R.J. adapter copy shows more CA, especially towards the corners. I would stick with Metabones.

Images from the Sony A7R + Metabones have amazing center resolution, noticeably higher than Canon's with the same lens but the corners do not show the same improvement...

I just ordered another Metabones to make sure but it looks like Roger was right when he wrote there is no free lunch when adapting our lenses.



Dec 15, 2013 at 10:09 PM
AGeoJO
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p.91 #8 · p.91 #8 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, my R.J. adapter copy shows more CA, especially in the corners. I would stick with Metabones.

Images from the Sony A7R + Metabones have amazing center resolution, noticeably higher than Canon's with the same lens but the corners do not show the same improvement...I just ordered another Metabones to make sure but it looks like Roger was right when he wrote there is no free lunch when adapting our lenses.



This is definitely another quirk from using non-native lenses via adapters. The thickness of the adapter varies not only from brand to brand, but seemingly also from batches to batches. The best bet to find out would be by.... trial and error . While dummy adapters are fairly inexpensive but AF adapters are not. This is something that the seasoned alternative folks are familiar with even going back 8 - 9 years ago before you introduced the current alternative board.



Dec 15, 2013 at 10:53 PM
artd
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p.91 #9 · p.91 #9 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, my R.J. adapter copy shows more CA, especially in the corners. I would stick with Metabones.

Images from the Sony A7R + Metabones have amazing center resolution, noticeably higher than Canon's with the same lens but the corners do not show the same improvement...I just ordered another Metabones to make sure but it looks like Roger was right when he wrote there is no free lunch when adapting our lenses.


I would say my adapter was definitely sharper across the frame in most areas, even towards the edges. There were some spots that seemed like they weren't as sharp as on my Canon body, but, if the Canon file was upscaled to the A7r size or the A7r file was downscaled to the Canon, the differences in those spots disappeared. And even when downscaling to the Canon file size I could still see a slight edge in definition in the A7r file in the center through mid-frame areas. Not much, but a little bit.

It would obviously better if we had a higher resolution Canon body. But in the meantime, I think that adapting lenses to the A7r does offer at least a marginal overall benefit in resolution, and of course a more notable benefit in dynamic range. Assuming, of course, you can get satisfactory results from a particular copy of a third-party adapter.

I am thinking though, if Sony ever decided to offer as an EF mount adapter and they could provide better manufacturing tolerances, they would be enticing a lot of Canon shooters to buy it...



Dec 16, 2013 at 03:36 AM
mabidally
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p.91 #10 · p.91 #10 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Gochugogi wrote:
Cool, maybe bleeding edge photo buffs will flee to SonyLand and I can get a 5D3 for dirt cheap now...


Looks like your prediction is coming true, lot of 5D3's for sale right now used mint condition ones asking about $2,400 i think this is dropping rapidly as realisation of the A7 and A7r impact becomes clearer.

This round Canon seems to have been hit out of the ball park, they will seriously have to up their game in the next round.




Dec 16, 2013 at 11:31 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



mabidally
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p.91 #11 · p.91 #11 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Rickuz wrote:
I hope so. But I was saying the same thing when the D800 came out, flexing it's high resolution and superior dynamic range.

Oh look! Canon caught with their pants down.

But after nearly two years I'm starting to think that they don't really care that their pants are down. Canon is too busy cooking up more video features, making video lenses and flirting with the video crowd.


+1



Dec 16, 2013 at 11:43 AM
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p.91 #12 · p.91 #12 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Gochugogi wrote:
Cool, maybe bleeding edge photo buffs will flee to SonyLand and I can get a 5D3 for dirt cheap now...


mabidally wrote:
Looks like your prediction is coming true, lot of 5D3's for sale right now used mint condition ones asking about $2,400 i think this is dropping rapidly as realisation of the A7 and A7r impact becomes clearer.

This round Canon seems to have been hit out of the ball park, they will seriously have to up their game in the next round.



Folks that think the Sony A7r is a replacement for the 5D Mark III are in for not so pleasant surprises. I would describe it as a high MP addition to their existing Canon body or bodies, even then they have to struggle with finding the right adapter/adapters and that can decide how good of an addition it actually is. There will be quite a bit of trial and error in doing so. Enough so that the whole aspect may scare some away from adapting non-native lenses on their A7r. I posted my findings/experience from using an adapter in the previous page of this thread but here is my finding and discussion from using various lenses and various mount adapters to Sony E:

1. What I have/use - Two Leica M, two Nikon, one Canon FD and one Canon EF adapters. Except for the last one, the Canon EF to Sony adapter, the others are "dumb" adapters, basically like an extension tube that you mount behind the lens and the whole shebang adapts to the Sony E mount of the A7r. One Nikon - E adapter allows me to change the aperture of their G lenses while the other doesn’t have that feature. In general, the dummy adapters are fairly in expensive and they are readily available but the Canon EF to E adapters are not inexpensive and not quite readily available, at least currently. It may take a week or longer to get them, if they are available. They range in price from approximately $200 to $400 each. Since I have lenses of different mounts and I would like to be able to use…., let me rephrase it, to test on the A7r. But why more than one of the same mount? Please read below.

2. The usage of adapters brings another parameter into the equation. The quality of adapters varies quite a bit. So, are expensive adapters better than their less expensive counterparts? Yes and no. In general they are better made but the tolerance is not consistent. You read a report somewhere that adapter A plus lens X combo works great. But when you get adapter A and you tried it on the exact same lens X, you started questioning the judgement of the person that reported it. The quality of that particular adapter will depend on your particular lens. The tolerance of lenses, especially newer lenses is pretty good but the tolerance of the adapters is less so. For all I know, my adapter is in perfect specification but it doesn’t work out well with my lens X on the A7r and not the other way around. Who knows! Another example goes like this. One of my lenses didn’t do well using one adapter but did actually great than on a different adapter. Go figure! Plus, the focusing distance also adds another parameter….It can escalate pretty fast from there. Granted, my experience is more pronounced in adapting rangefinder lenses but still it translates to a certain degree to Canon lenses. Case in point - so far, there are 3 folks here that use an alternative (to that of the most commonly used Metabones) adapter made by RJC. One user reported physical obstruction of the baffle using a 24mm TS-E lens. I didn’t notice it and Fred didn’t either. Fred reported an increase of CA relative the results taken with the same lens using his Metabones adapter. I do not have any Metabones; so, I can’t say one way or the other. Furthermore, Fred and Roger reported that the improvement (mostly as a result from 22 to 36MP) is noticeable only in the center when compared to the files generated with his 5D Mark III or the native camera. The corners? Not really there. See his comments on this page.

3. Wide angle SLR lenses perform better than those of rangefinder lenses simply due to the difference in optical design between the two groups. Even the serious “offenders” in any group and after using both adapters, perform great in the center. It is the edge, especially the corner performance that somehow gets magnified/more pronounced from using various adapters. I understood that the 24MP Sony A7 is better in that respect to that of the 36MP A7r. The increase in resolution? 22MP to 24MP, hardly worth mentioning. Before some folks jump to my throat about the DR improvement.... well, to each his/her own.

In summary, the usage of Canon lenses on the Sony A7r is not as easy as it seems. For sure, it is not so seamless as some anticipated and not all lenses can be easily adapted. The adapters seem to vary not only from brand to brand but from batches to batches. How do we figure that out? Using the trial and error method. You have to try each one out with your existing lenses and that can get tedious fast. For sure, you will become a pixel peeper in no time and that takes away from real life photography we are enjoying so much. I will continue to use the A7r in addition to my 5D Mark III and I will limit my lens selection for that. But I will use this camera more as my smallish and lightweight travel camera, again only with selected rangefinder and Canon FD lenses. My favorite Canon EF lens on this camera so far is the Canon 40mm f/2.8 pancake! The adapter adds more than an inch or so to the lens and it may not be considered as a pancake lens but it is still cute and really sharp, even at wide open .

As you can see, I am staying away from discussing the possibility of shutter vibration issues within a certain shutter speed range of the A7r, which could be another strike against this camera. I feel like I have done enough pixel peeping and I don’t feel like doing it anymore . You need to weigh in the merit of this camera, warts and all, even only as an addition to your existing Canon body yourself. I am just offering my perspective as a user. Who knows maybe during time you are considering the possibility of getting this camera Canon introduces a high MP camera . If not, well, tough .


Edited on Dec 16, 2013 at 05:17 PM · View previous versions



Dec 16, 2013 at 04:53 PM
mttran
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p.91 #13 · p.91 #13 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Hi Joshua, thanks for the report and I am sure you will flood some of your beautiful images here. I can't wait to see your sample set.


Dec 16, 2013 at 05:17 PM
AGeoJO
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p.91 #14 · p.91 #14 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Hi Michael, I have not taken any, not even a single real life image, just a lot of test images . I spent hours and hours pixel peeping to the chagrin of my wife since I got this camera over a week ago. In addition, I scoured selected sites trying to locate and buy inexpensive but great Canon FD lenses . Furthermore, I still have some personal/family related matters I need to attend to. So, I will take care of those things first and then go out and do photography again later in the week or by next weekend. But, there is a used camera expo next weekend that I want to go to. Who knows maybe I can find some old treasures there . Don't get me wrong, it is fun but it is time consuming....


Dec 16, 2013 at 05:30 PM
artd
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p.91 #15 · p.91 #15 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


AGeoJO wrote:
Folks that think the Sony A7r is a replacement for the 5D Mark III are in for not so pleasant surprises. I would describe it as a high MP addition to their existing Canon body or bodies, even then they have to struggle with finding the right adapter/adapters and that can decide how good of an addition it actually is.

Exactly right.

Anyone who thinks the used market is going to be flooded with Canon bodies is dreaming It seems to me most Canon shooters who have bought this camera have no intention of selling their Canon bodies (I know I don't).

I will say though that while I'm in the process of working out my solutions for tripod-based shooting with Canon lenses, I did get a chance to take the A7r on a hike with a native-mount 35mm FE lens. I found it really pleasant to have a very light full frame camera that I could just sling around my neck and barely notice that it was there




Dec 16, 2013 at 05:35 PM
mttran
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p.91 #16 · p.91 #16 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


AGeoJO wrote:
Hi Michael, I have not taken any, not even a single real life image, just a lot of test images . I spent hours and hours pixel peeping to the chagrin of my wife since I got this camera over a week ago. In addition, I scoured selected sites trying to locate and buy inexpensive but great Canon FD lenses . Furthermore, I still have some personal/family related matters I need to attend to. So, I will take care of those things first and then go out and do photography again later in the week or by next weekend. But,
...Show more

Don't underestimated the FD series, Here are some samples with FDseries

By Jeb Image@Flickr - FD 50F1.4: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5489/11303315805_c77874e741_k.jpg
By Tarzán de los gnomos@Flickr - FD 85L1.2: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/11378115875_027e7bd227_k.jpg

Updated to include: FD 50F14 and FD 85L1.2


Edited on Dec 16, 2013 at 07:40 PM · View previous versions



Dec 16, 2013 at 06:01 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.91 #17 · p.91 #17 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


AGeoJO wrote:
In summary, the usage of Canon lenses on the Sony A7r is not as easy as it seems.


The camera seems like a very interesting design with a lot to offer, especially for certain kinds of shooting, and even more so when Sony offers additional native lenses.

In the meantime, it sounds like we might have yet another example of the promise of a new thing being a bit greater than the reality.

Dan



Dec 16, 2013 at 06:13 PM
Gunzorro
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p.91 #18 · p.91 #18 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Joshua -- Great report, thanks!

I like your level-headed observation that we used to do fine with the crummy old DR offered by standard cameras. I know I usually get better than acceptable results, and when I don't have enough DR, I simple shoot a shot or two to capture super-highlights or shadow details, then merge. I do it rarely enough that it isn't a problem with stationary subjects.

Same thing happens when I want a sharper image: shoot a multi-shot pano or composite to exceed the Sony 36MP sensor. It's just a little more time consuming or complex, but not a game-stopper.

I'm getting a little more standoffish about the Sony/adapter approach. If I were wealthier, I'd buy the camera, but primarily use the native OEM lenses, which look very nice in sample images (even that 28-70 zoom for the a7). I'll just continue to limp along and wait/hope for an affordable Canon high MP body.



Dec 16, 2013 at 06:24 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.91 #19 · p.91 #19 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


So far I have tested (2) Metabones III adapters and one RJC adapter with the TS-E 17mm and 24mm lenses.
The RJC adapter was the worse offender of the bunch.

With the TS-E 17mm, I'm getting soft/low contrast corners with the two Metabones I tested. None of the adapters match the edges from the Canon 5D III with the same lens, especially when we start shifting.
It seems to me, the wider we go, the more we'll see issues with adapter tolerance and alignment. The A7R higher resolution and shorter flange-to-sensor is also more likely to show any tilt. The low contrast could be due to reflections inside the adapter.

I pretty much agree with Joshua's report. Lens adapter variability is definitely an issue and it could be tedious for Canon shooters to find a good match for each of their lenses.

I'm getting another Metabones this week and if anything changes, I will post an update. So far, I'm very impressed with the only native lens I have tried. The FE 35mm f/2.8 ZA is incredible wide-open and even more so at f/4.

Here are some crops showing the difference between the A7R+adapters and the Canon 5D III with the TS-E 17mm with an extreme shift (12mm) showing the upper left corner. Same exposure and aperture (f/11) used on samples:

R.J. Adapter, extreme shift (12mm) upper corner lacks contrast / soft and have pronounced CA

My best Metabones Adapter, extreme shift (12mm) upper corner lacks contrast / soft

Canon 5D Mark III. Looks acceptable for such extreme shift

__________________

Here are some crops showing center and upper left corners unshifted from A7R+Metabones and Canon 5D Mark III:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/a7r-17mm-center.png
strong center performance from A7R+Metabones+TS-E 17mm unshifted.



http://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/5DIII-17mm-center.png
5D Mark III Center performance - 17mm unshifted.



http://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/a7r-17mm-extreme corner.png
A7R+Metabones - low contrast, soft performance at the upper corner - 17mm unshifted.



http://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/5DIII-17mm-extreme corner.png
Canon 5D mark III strong performance at the upper corner - 17mm unshifted.


I have more samples with further distances but they pretty much show the same corner issues. With the TS-E 24mm, corner softness is less pronounced but it's still apparent. I believe we would get better results with longer focal lenghts but have not tried that yet.

These samples are not conclusive of anything but it's unfortunate that none of my 3 adapters worked well with my Canon TS-E lenses.

I'm not quite sure what is causing this. Adapter or camera mount misalignment? Any ideas?

To make sure, I will try again with a new Metabones and report back if I see any improvement.



Dec 16, 2013 at 07:36 PM
kezeka
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p.91 #20 · p.91 #20 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Has anyone ran into a problem where their a7 or a7r hangs on a black but still backlit screen after taking a photo for 20+ seconds or until you restart the camera? I have also run into problems where the camera will take 10-20 seconds to wake from sleep a few times a day. Needless to say, I have missed some great photos because of these "crashes". Have only been using a metabones III adapter with the 35L and 85L in manual focus. Really like the a7 otherwise. The shutter is way quieter than my SLRs, particularly with the electronic first curtain.


Dec 16, 2013 at 08:08 PM
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