fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6       end
  

Archive 2011 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved

  
 
Chris Fawkes
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #1 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Something worth asking here is if the information is so easy to come by then why is Jesh's work so much better than most, particularly at an emotional level?

Does he know something most actually don't or is he simply a better shooter?



Mar 27, 2011 at 05:45 AM
RichardLavigne
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #2 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Inku Yo wrote:
I still don't know what "Beloved" is all about. It would be easier for me to spend $16.500 if I knew what I was actually going to learn.


ok... I have a friend that is into the beloved thing.. he has the field guide (bought it used off for Ebay for CHEAP) and I asked him this quesition... here's his answer.

The biggest thing about Beloved is that it's basically emotional improv to help couples connect and have genuine moments together. I don't think it's going to work on every couple, and I think a big key is adapting the things you ask each couple to do specifically to that couple. Out of the 30 cards I only really use about a dozen. The rest are too far out there for me and who I am. I'm open and honest and authentic, but I'm not "lay your soul on the line and let's cry together, stranger and friend" open and honest and authentic. It may end up like that anyway if the couple is an emotional couple, but the really far out there stuff is beyond what I'm comfortable asking of couples.

I'm happy to type out a few of the cards or even talk about them, since I've had a chance to listen to a lot of what Jesh says and adapt it to what is usable for me. For instance let's pretend you and Anne are the couple...

To begin, I summarize the first 5-6 cards in the set by simply talking to my couples and starting out with a few activities.

Okay guys, before we get started, I just want to take a minute and ask you to put aside any expectations you might have about this session. The process of photography is a two-way street. I'm going to give you guys some things to think about and do rather than asking you to give me stiff poses and forced smiles, and if we're authentic with each other we will create some beautiful, natural images that are very much a reflection of who you are together. So our primary goals are to be authentic and have some fun with this. Sound good to you guys?

Sure thing.

Awesome. So during this whole session, the key is for you guys to key in on each other, so to get started let me get you guys facing each other and holding hands. I'd like you to shut your eyes and really just focus on each other and the love you share. Whenever you're feeling especially loving, give the other person a little squeeze. I just like to start this way because it really helps you guys to focus on each other so we'll just do this for a minute or two.

Just a way to take a minute and clear your mind.

Okay now you guys can open your eyes and Rich I want you to give Anne a big hug, pick her up, and spin her around and you guys can kiss or hug or anything you feel comfortable with afterwards. Just spin her around and have fun with it.

So you do that and it's a great way to break the ice after taking that minute standing together with your eyes closed. I made this one up. In the Beloved guide Jesh mentions having the couples stand 10' apart with their eyes close and trying to find each other, but I don't want somebody falling or twisting an ankle and suing me so I went with this instead. So now you guys were maybe thinking I was high, and now you're having fun with the picking up and spinning thing. I immediately front-load the entire session with the light-hearted stuff.

Okay now we're going to take turns whispering in each other's ears, and the goal is to get the biggest reaction, and we're going to see who the winner is. You can go anywhere from completely goofy to completely Barry White "Baby I wanna butter yo bread" with this. Only you two can hear what the other is saying so have fun with it. We'll start with Rich whispering in your ear Anne and then you can whisper something in Rich's ear.

They have a blast doing this and I get some great reactions, because usually it's something super dirty or goofy that gets a big laugh, and I just stand back, shoot it, and let them have their moment. I'm 95% sure this is the one I used for the Beloved shot of Annabelle and Patrick that I have on my blog right now. I'll follow this up by something else like getting you two to sit down together cuddled up and asking you questions like Anne, go with the first thing that comes to mind, if Rich was a movie, what movie would he be? or Rich, again go with the first thing that comes to mind, if Anne were a fruit, what fruit would she be? I may or may not do this, may just talk to the couple, but my goal is to get the couple interacting with and thinking about each other. Usually it makes for some pretty funny answers though. Then I might transition into something a little more heavy.

Okay Rich, I want you to hold Anne close, and I want you to take a minute to think about the time that sticks out in your mind that you were most proud of Anne (you're immediately probably going to think about her in the hospital giving birth to Tyler), and I want you to tell her about that time and why you were so proud of her.

Depending on the couple, you can even start to get some tears flowing as early as here.

Okay Anne, I want you to take a minute to think about three memories you can't wait to share with Rich that haven't happened yet but that you want to create together, and I want you to tell Rich what they are and why they're important to you.

May or may not work depending on the couple and how creative they can get, but a big part of making it work is the way you ask and your tone of voice, and being authentic with them. If you do it right it can be anything from fun stuff like a crazy trip together or sky-diving, or it could be you guys watching Tyler get married one day and growing old together. All depends on the couple as to how effective this is, but I hope that my site and branding and the way I talk to my couples attracts couples that are okay with letting this kind of stuff happen and rolling with it.

Okay guys, I want you to hold each other close and shut your eyes. Take a moment and imagine that this was the last day you were going to get to spend together. I want each of you to take a minute to let that sink in, because tomorrow is never promised. I want you to let the other person know just how much you care about them and love them by the way you touch their face with your face or hand.

This can get really emotional. I know if someone did this to my wife and I, we'd both be in tears and we're have a moment for sure (my eyes are watering up a little typing it and just thinking about it). I'd let that moment happen and then I'd ask them to look at each other and kiss each other as if it was the last time. Then I'd ask them to look at me like they're looking at each other.

Mixed in through this I may do some slightly posed stuff, but what works best is either doing the posed stuff up front, or at the tail end. At this point I've covered over 50% of the Beloved Field Guide (all the stuff that's not REALLY far our there like imaging people have incurable diseases and the cure is in your fingertips and I want you to draw a picture in the air and run your hands over their body to heal them type stuff) along with a few I made up. That's the beauty because you can continue to make up various exercises/activities to get the couple interacting with each other. I'll do the posed stuff at the end after I already have them relaxed and naturally interacting with each other.



Mar 27, 2011 at 07:22 AM
danvprod
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #3 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Thanks for that Richard.

So it's basically like emotional improv in a "who's line is it anyway" of sorts. I can get behind that. This is in sparse contrast to others who tell the couple to run out into a field with no directions and wait until they get bored enough to start interacting.

Interesting stuff.




Mar 27, 2011 at 08:44 AM
Inku Yo
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #4 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Ok, I get it. What I also get - he doesn't really want to do a one-on-one with anyone. That's his "happy" price. Kind of like how I price things that I don't really want to do - rehearsal coverage, brunch coverage, etc...just on a much grander scale. If someone wants to pay, great!



Mar 27, 2011 at 08:54 AM
danvprod
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #5 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Inku Yo wrote:
Ok, I get it. What I also get - he doesn't really want to do a one-on-one with anyone. That's his "happy" price. Kind of like how I price things that I don't really want to do - rehearsal coverage, brunch coverage, etc...just on a much grander scale. If someone wants to pay, great!


Yes I agree with you there.

Sort of like "oh you want to process the raw images yourself because you are good in photoshop and want to save some $$$, sure we can accommodate you, the release fee for raw images is $125/image, that will be $75k, okthanksbyeee"





Mar 27, 2011 at 09:03 AM
ClareinME
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #6 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Interesting Richard, thank you! I guess if it works for him great~ but I cannot see myself on their wedding day telling my couples, "imagine if they die tomorrow stuff"~ hello Debbie downer!


Mar 27, 2011 at 09:27 AM
monoatomic72
Offline
• •
[X]
p.5 #7 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


RichardLavigne wrote:
Lot's of text...



This isn't how most people direct SOME portions of their e-sessions, bride and groom photos at the wedding? I definitely do some of these on a regular basis to get true emotions out of clients. Usually it's a bit lighter, definitely never thought about telling them to envision that it's their last day on earth together.
I would have thought that most people would give their couples cues to act as they do when they are together without me there. This isn't the case?



Mar 27, 2011 at 12:19 PM
Chris Fawkes
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #8 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


The last day on earth together line has been around for at least 20 years.


Mar 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM
jofoto photo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #9 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Thanks Richard, interesting read, just draw a line where you and your clients feel comfortable. Useful information nothing new, just delivered differently.


Mar 27, 2011 at 01:04 PM
neridah
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #10 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Just watched those presentations again and they are void of any level of substantial information which would prove useful to photographers in business.

His softly softly tone of voice does nothing to quell what seems to be a deepseeded motivation for rapid monetary gain ie his introduction of the las vegas seminar priced at $1000 and that he wanted at least 100-200 people to attend.

It borders on hypnosis the mere fact he is charging the ridiculous sum of $16,500 for a one on one just confirms that he is not interested in connecting with the average person i mean seriously who the hell has a lazy 16,500 lying around in our current economic climate...?
it wont appeal to the majority he is merely relying on the 1% of photographers out there that have more dollars than sense and that are completely vulnerable and would believe anything.

This is not meant to attack or degrade just my observation of his presentation.
I liked him better as a photographer.



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:25 PM
danvprod
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #11 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Playing devil's advocate for Jesh. He is flying to your studio, which means the "day" is really 3 days plus the cost of air travel - say a conservative $1500 for travel (plane ticket + 2 nights hotels + meals) that puts his time at about $200/hr

He's priced it to be worth his while. More people in our industry should be doing this. How many times have you been frustrated by the portrait photographer that charges $50/session with all digital files, or does a wedding with an album for $1000.

Jesh is a good business man, with a winnable personality, and a unique product (presented uniquely through his good sales technique).

Fair enough?



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:34 PM
Joogy
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #12 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Inku Yo wrote:
What I also get - he doesn't really want to do a one-on-one with anyone. That's his "happy" price. Kind of like how I price things that I don't really want to do - rehearsal coverage, brunch coverage, etc...just on a much grander scale. If someone wants to pay, great!


I forget who this was, but there was a movie star who agreed to provide himself to some lucky bidder (on behalf of a charitable auction) willing to do lunch with that winner.

He said it's the easiest gig in the world because you basically sit there and eat while the other person tells you all about yourself.

I imagine anyone paying for a one on one with Josh De Rex would similarly spend the day fawning over any little thing he says or does.

I think he'd be more than willing to swap a day for 16 grand.

I think that product is a strategy: In fact, without claiming to have any inside knowledge, I would say for sure it is. It's more about having certain product at price tiers for people to buy because there will be some who just may buy in. But I think he mismanaged how to do it. Here's how this strategy normally would pan out, done correctly:

5000 people tuned in to the free webinar. He's got all their email addresses to market to. Repeatedly.

If he does his job right at the webinar, about 10% will be hot to buying his $250 product at the end of it. That's $125,000 in sales. Those names go into another email group he can market to more aggressively as proven buyers of his stuff.

He can spend the rest of the year sending emails to everyone who didn't buy. Even if it's just to say "I'm thinking of you."

And market more to the ones who did. His $500 product, for example. How many of those that bought MAY buy more? If it's ten percent, that's 50 sales at $500 = $25,500 per emailing. The second email maybe 5% buy. The third time around 1% buy. Total sales = $40,000.

Meantime don't forget - he's still emailing the 4500 who didn't buy the first time around. Some may now be buying that $250 product as he hits them again down the road.

Marketing to ones who bought the $250 and $500 products, maybe a small percentage will take him up on the $16,500 product.

Of course, marketing all this time via email to all, he can pitch smaller $2000 3 day bootcamps, $300 internet summits, bigger $30,000 intensive week long annual lollapaloozas, $59 Inner Circle Monthly memberships, Books, Audio tapes, DVDs, Special reports and other products like his Action Sets.

From a list of 5000 and always actively maintaining 5,000 people as people drop off and people climb on, he could make a million to millions per year.
That's what I think his goal was.

But pitching it all one at one free webinar, that was a mistake.


Edited on Mar 27, 2011 at 02:52 PM · View previous versions



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:50 PM
alexisgc33
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #13 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Chris Fawkes wrote:
The last day on earth together line has been around for at least 20 years.


this is nothing new if you talk to other photographers/portrait artist who have been doing photography for the past 50yrs. It is new however... to most of the photogs today who are "self taught" and just picked up a camera. Direction & communication... it has BEEN done for years!!!

Call me cynical, but 9 out of 10 photogs who are speaking/teaching are full of it. I don't believe they really like or care about photography and more about them getting attention and pretending they are god's gift to I don't know what. But I truly believe they like the attention and speaking in front of large groups of people.

If you really averaged anywhere from 10-18k per wedding... if that's really true and that's what you love, then please tell me why you stopped doing that and instead start doing seminars & workshops for $1800-2500 per person in groups of 10-20?? I strongly believe these are failed photographers. It's a lot easier to create a fake web presences, make yourself seem bigger then you are.. and sell the dream to upcoming photographers who are eager to make a change & find their dream. If you really are that successful in photography, you WOULD NOT need to be selling a bunch of crap like layers, actions, seminars, etc!!!

ALL the great photographers I know who have been doing this 10-20yrs+ are amazing and they all have helped me out. HOW MUCH DID THEY CHARGE ME NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! why, b/c they actually do photography for a living. But since they are busy working, they are not famous plat forum speakers.

a lot of these photography "seminars" and "mentors" and "industry leaders" is all a bad joke at the expense of your money. Think of the cartoon where the person is a riding a donkey and getting a free ride by making the donkey move w/ a carrot on a fishing pole that he'll never get. That's a damn good analogy/summary of 80-90% of the photography industry. Guess whose getting the free ride & who the donkey is



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:50 PM
neridah
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #14 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Joogy wrote:
I forget who this was, but there was a movie star who agreed to provide himself to some lucky bidder (on behalf of a charitable auction) willing to do lunch with that winner.

He said it's the easiest gig in the world because you basically sit there and eat while the other person tells you all about yourself.

I imagine anyone paying for a one on one with Josh De Rex would similarly spend the day fawning over any little thing he says or does.

I think he'd be more than willing to swap a day for 16 grand.

I think that product is
...Show more



Outstanding post he will surely use this information.
If he didnt know it then he will now.



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:58 PM
neridah
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #15 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


alexisgc33 wrote:
this is nothing new if you talk to other photographers/portrait artist who have been doing photography for the past 50yrs. It is new however... to most of the photogs today who are "self taught" and just picked up a camera. Direction & communication... it has BEEN done for years!!!

Call me cynical, but 9 out of 10 photogs who are speaking/teaching are full of it. I don't believe they really like or care about photography and more about them getting attention and pretending they are god's gift to I don't know what. But I truly believe they like the attention
...Show more


+ 1000



Mar 27, 2011 at 02:59 PM
danvprod
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #16 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


@alexisgc33

One thing that the field guide, the action sets, the webinars do is provide PASSIVE INCOME i.e. you put the work in to create the product (like the action set) and then it generates income for every sale.

This is not the case for weddings. Where in order to make that 10-18k you have to travel, shoot, edit and deliver the product.

So let me ask you this what sounds more appealing from a true, logical business sense - working 25-40 weddings a year for 10-18k per wedding or selling 1000 action sets and 500 field guides in your sleep, or while eating a turduken on a yacht in bali.

I'd take the yacht. Just sayin'

He's 29 and basically in retirement, sounds good to me.



Mar 27, 2011 at 03:01 PM
RichardLavigne
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #17 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


monoatomic72 wrote:
This isn't how most people direct SOME portions of their e-sessions, bride and groom photos at the wedding? I definitely do some of these on a regular basis to get true emotions out of clients. Usually it's a bit lighter, definitely never thought about telling them to envision that it's their last day on earth together.
I would have thought that most people would give their couples cues to act as they do when they are together without me there. This isn't the case?


It is the case... and that's why people think its absurd that he thinks he's so revolutionary...



Mar 27, 2011 at 03:10 PM
rmric0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #18 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


danvprod wrote:
@alexisgc33

One thing that the field guide, the action sets, the webinars do is provide PASSIVE INCOME i.e. you put the work in to create the product (like the action set) and then it generates income for every sale.

This is not the case for weddings. Where in order to make that 10-18k you have to travel, shoot, edit and deliver the product.

So let me ask you this what sounds more appealing from a true, logical business sense - working 25-40 weddings a year for 10-18k per wedding or selling 1000 action sets and 500 field guides in your sleep,
...Show more

On Dan's point, the reason why we hear about so many software billionaires is scalability. Once a piece of code is developed you can keep selling it over and over again for little marginal cost as much as you'd like. Wedding photography is almost the complete opposite, you are selling a product that has a very small market (a couple) and limited sales opportunities. Sure you can sell a picture to them three or four times through prints, albums, canvases but there's a realistic limit on those sales. To get the next sale, you essentially have to reinvent the wheel.

Now, marketing business plans, seminars and actions brings you closer to the realm of software. All you have to do is come up with the content and you can sell it over and over again with very little additional cost to you. After all, you only have to write the speeches once and then you give it over and over again to that room full of 100 people paying $1,000 to be there.



Mar 27, 2011 at 05:56 PM
lisy78
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #19 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


Richard, thanks for posting that.

had a family session this afternoon... and tried it out on the couple while the grandmother was with the girls.

the shit works for sure.

Liking it!



Mar 27, 2011 at 06:43 PM
RichardLavigne
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.5 #20 · Jesh de Rox / Beloved


lisy78 wrote:
Richard, thanks for posting that.

had a family session this afternoon... and tried it out on the couple while the grandmother was with the girls.

the shit works for sure.

Liking it!


Yea... I think there's something to it... its essentially what we do already but with a little twist. keep in mind, the stuff in the dialogue I posted is pretty tame... some of it is pretty far out there and I feel like some couples would look at me like I had 4 heads if I said it.



Mar 27, 2011 at 08:26 PM
1       2       3       4              6       end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       4              6       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account