sboerup wrote:
What is this whole "Beloved" thing? First time hearing about it and curious, I don't see anything on any site . . .
From my little knowledge of it, Connection, Connecting, Capturing the Connection,
In my on view Human Psychology 101 the missing element to your photography.
Which is as most wedding photographers already know, communication with clients and between clients, and the tricky bit of capturing the connection, emotion etc etc.
Sorry if that's not romantic enough for the romantics here
maxwell1295 wrote:
Damn, and here I was thinking Jesh de Rox was a woman (being dead serious about that). I guess I need to pay more attention to these famous photographers.......or not.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
This is a different topic I guess, but what the hay...
I see where you're coming from on this, but I would tend to disagree with you. I know lots of people who struggle to book, but it's certainly not from a lack of effort. Most often, it's a lack of truly great work. Not to be totally shameless, but we had a number of people that attended the Genesis workshop last year who have been in business much longer than 5 years and I think a few of them have improved a ton since then and I've seen their businesses growing. Not saying it's necessarily because of the workshop, but I really admire when an old dog tries to learn new tricks.
Maurice Ramirez is a great example. He's someone I look up to photographically and he has success and lots of experience, but he's always attending things to try to keep pushing himself. And I think he's growing because of it.
With all that said, my feelings about this particular workshop shall remain private since the forum is public ...Show more →
A lot of photographers actually work less as they grow their business. Then 5-10,20 years down the road they notice that their stuff isn't cutting any more. It happens all the time. Happened to a ton of traditional photographers. Most couldn't get back to the field at all and closed their shops.
There's work and there's hard work +working smart. I talked with another photographer back in January who said to me that it's his 3d year about to begin and he shot 30+ weddings and things are not looking good for the year even though he worked extremely hard for those 2 years with marketing and all the other business stuff.
I asked him how much time he dedicates to his business(not editing or photographing) and the number was less than 10 hours a week.
Obviously it was one of his problems. He was barely investing any time into it and still calling it a hard work. I asked him how much he works on all photography related stuff during months of June-September and the number was about 35-40 hours a week.
I am sorry...but that's not enough! It takes time and effort to BUILD a successful business. I personally don't consider that a lot or enough. Not at that stage and especially when he wasn't getting enough clients.
I asked him if he ever tried to network with other vendors and the answer was no.
I asked him if he ever printed any brochures and spread them around different businesses and he said no.
I asked if he advertises anywhere and the answer was Not really.
It goes on and on.
Then we did some math on his packages and prices were way too low to begin with.
He had to shoot 3 weddings per month every month just to break even(!!) on his monthly expenses(mortgage,car payment,etc)
I actually see that a lot. People expect magic to pour down from the skies and bring them clients and lots of money. Yet they are not willing to sit down and think and then work hard and get their hands dirty.
Between months February-May of 2007 I've put in over 200 hours(+ some shooting and editing) into my business each month alone trying to jump start my goal. I am certain that if I've only been allocating a few hour per day then I'd be one of those complaining about life and how nobody wants to book me.
Good body of work also helps a lot. There's a lot of competition these days and everyone including my grandma is a photographer. Everyone has the same set of plugins, actions and other photoshop add-ons to make images pop.
I think someone said it on this or other forum" Everyone wants to be a photographer but not everyone has a potential. Just like every girl wants to be a super model and only 1 in a 10,000 can actually pull that off. The rest will try,try and eventually give up because they don't have IT".
Although it's not really true, "garbage" is not accepted any more. Clients are educated enough by magazines and media and have a lot of choices in regards to photography.
Another problem is where photographers just don't know what they are doing. They attend workshops, look at a bunch of other wedding photography websites and try to do the same in their business. Most fail. Instead of trying to do their own thing and use their own creative juices to get something unique they try to please everyone and the end result is "typical photography" with typical editing.
Oh, and all the shown on an Ipad to their prospective clients 'cuz Ipads are cool... b'waaaa(haha I am not sure how to make puking noises)
I think Jesh is a decent photographer and an amazing business man.
That said, he bothers the hell out of me. He calls everyone "friend," ends his sentences like this,,,,,, and talks in condescending circles. He tells his clients to close their eyes and tries to invoke emotion out of them by using long complex sentences about love and joy. Zack Arias is right, it's all snake oil.
I met Zack in person a few months ago at a party. One of the nicest, humble, hardest working, straightforward guys I've ever met. We need more of him in the industry.
End of the day if someone wants to pay $20k for a one-on-one, good on them. What bothers me more than anything is how Jesh thinks he's doing the world a favor with this whole thing. Collect your money, get paid, buy shit; but don't pretend that you're gods gift to the world because you made someone cry at a seminar once.
Jesh and Dane Sanders (amongst others) have always been wolves in sheeps clothing to me. Complete predators who're making their living off promises of grandeur to amateur / unsuccessful photographers.
I'm glad the light is starting to spread to others about the bullshit they spread.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
there is a lot of hullaballoo surrounding jesh right now (and constantly, kind of) but 1 on 1 (no 16k) he is a really nice guy and the experiential stuff is a really great tool. i consider it one of the reasons my work stands out a little bit more than most. the idea is to give people emotional triggers to make them act a certain way.
Jerry G will give you some emotional triggers for only $100 when you attend one of his and Sandy Puc's traveling circus.
Oh shoot. I hardly remember. There WERE men in there - I remember the couples he brought up on stage to demo his "experiential" technique. I will say those that hung around afterwards to speak with him were nearly 100% female.
Some of his techniques are fantastic for bringing out emotion in couples. Some of his techniques my couples would NEVER be into and would think I'm a weirdo if I tried them (just way, way too deep). I'm not saying that's the same for everyone's clientele.
Half of his talk was this deep emotional stuff with lots of storytelling and NOTHING about photography - not even the words "photographer" or "camera" even uttered. The last half he got into his techniques. I was lost at first - a bunch of, as someone said it, mumbling and stopping to overcome emotion - a LOT of deep sighs and silent pauses. It was almost uncomfortable for me. I really was wondering where the whole thing was going. Then he started bringing people up to show his technique and I could see where it was going.
BUT...like I said, the $16,500 thing really turned me off to him. I have LOTS of friends in my area who think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and a few of those who did workshops with him a few years back when he was still emerging (and affordable). I mostly attended his talk at WPPI because they all were.
Based on audience reaction to his demonstrations with audience volunteers (lots of tears), I would be willing to bet he didn't exactly do poorly at WPPI. He was pushing his Beloved field guide and the webinar (along with a 2 day seminar in California at a yet-to-be determined date that was being included). His techniques are good; those I feel I can use. However, there's a whole 'nuther level to everything that leaves me feeling a bit uneasy, for some reason. It's almost TOO deep.
It's psuedo-marketing-bullshit that he presses on people because it's been apart of his image since day one.
Do you really think when he hugs his wife and tells her he'll be away on business for the week that he asks her to close her eyes and breathe? Or when he walks into a supermarket do you think he stares lovingly at the box of Triscuits before then apologizing for throwing them into his cart? He pretends he's walking on sunshine - all the time. It's so innately irritating and goes against normal human behavior.
I've met him briefly. He's a very nice guy. Some of what he teaches may be of use to some people, but the root of his brand to me is based off a lie and I don't like the dishonesty.
Once he announced the $20K mano-a-mano training in the webinar yesterday, one astute tweeter said, "there are lots of people in Japan who could use $20,000 dollars."
For thousands of years gurus, mystics, religious figures, politicians, etc., have been manipulating the masses with vague ramblings that are appealing and accessible. This is not to say that certain people have not achieved a deeper understanding of human dynamics, and are able to leverage that understanding into developing strong relationships, trust, comfort, and in the end, esteem and respect. But, to me it is about what the person does with that skill.
When a photographer is asking for 20K to spend a day with him, he has the wrong intentions. Put simply, this is a con. The equivalent of a Pyramid scheme in photography n many ways. Spend this inordinate amount of money and you will have access to some special knowledge. The reality is that there is no teaching Jesh can provide that a photographer could not find at the 100s of other workshops, books, and online resources.
At the end of the day, if you are a wedding/couples photographer, and you are NOT trying to learn how to work with different personalities, manage people's expectations, make them comfortable, tap into their emotions and moods, and parlay all of this into quality photographs, then what are you doing?
ishkabibl wrote:
At the end of the day, if you are a wedding/couples photographer, and you are NOT trying to learn how to work with different personalities, manage people's expectations, make them comfortable, tap into their emotions and moods, and parlay all of this into quality photographs, then what are you doing?
