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Archive 2010 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?

  
 
RustyBug
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p.5 #1 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


ddavid wrote:
Just to be argumentative
...

ddavid wrote:
The cynic in me suspects that the "Made in USA" label being prominently displayed on the front of the custom Chinese made case is more of a marketing/window dressing move than a "compliance" issue. If so, I would suggest that the product doesn't need subterfuge to increase its perceived value and doing so diminishes the luster of the brand.

Edit:
Lest you think I am living in the dark I think that the size and placement of the Made In USA label implies much more than it means. Would you agree?

ABSOLUTELY !!!

But a continued cynical suggestion of subterfuge against a company whose founder proudly served his country in the U.S. Navy, learned his craft and has spent decades building his American company ... instead of considering it to be a display of pride in his company and his country ... seems to be a bit out of line, imo.

And is it any less so (marketing appeal) for any other product legally bearing the marking "Made in USA"? For some of us Made in Japan vs. Made in Germany vs. Made in Canada has different appeal (referring to specifically to lenses) ... even though they might be from the same design.

Lest you think I am living in the dark I think that the size and placement of the Made In USA label implies much more than it means. Would you agree?
ABSOLUTELY !!!

I respect one's right to their own opinion ... but having a difference of opinion and merely suggesting subterfuge does not constitute wrong doing or foul on the part of an American Veteran, who founded an American Company, employing American Workers, in American Facilities, providing American Consumers (et al), with American Products utilizing American Design and American Innovation, while complying with American Laws ... I'd want "Made In USA" on the front of my products too if I had built such a company ... wouldn't you?

Lest you think I am living in the dark I think that the size and placement of the Made In USA label implies much more than it means. Would you agree?
ABSOLUTELY !!!

If you have put your life on the line to defend the flag, you can pretty well bet you just might be proud to display the flag.

NOTE: To everyone from other countries who have pride in their own country ... your patriotism to your homeland is equally respected.

I would suggest that the product doesn't need subterfuge to increase its perceived value and doing so diminishes the luster of the brand.

Part of the perceived value, exists in the heritage of Paul's electronics expertise stemming from his service in the U.S. Navy, etc. and his innovative nature. "Made in USA" carries an even greater implication in this instance than most would consider. If you still believe it is subterfuge and loopholes moreover than pride or homage to his American employees ... well, you are entitled to your opinion. For me, Paul's labeling of "Made in USA" neither creates nor diminishes its luster, but instead, corroborates the luster of the brand for a multitude of reasons that extend well beyond the mere presence of a label.

Now if he could just get me my VML before Christmas ... 2011.






Dec 31, 2010 at 06:24 AM
photomarvin
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p.5 #2 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Beni wrote:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10058-11135

Delay till late Jan.


This sounds all too familiar to last year with the Einsteins.



Dec 31, 2010 at 10:09 AM
Mike Mahoney
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p.5 #3 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


tetrode wrote:
I try to "buy American" whenever possible and do look for the country of origin label on products.


And who actually owns and profits from that "American" company?

Research the significant direct and indirect foreign ownership of not only American companies but other American assets including vast tracts of land, resources, and significant services. (google Dubai and US ports for an example).

The issue is far much greater than component sourcing .. and that includes both outsourcing and insourcing, the latter of which has the potential to turn America into a sweatshop.

Some rainy day reading for you:
http://www.economyincrisis.org/






Dec 31, 2010 at 10:15 AM
RDKirk
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p.5 #4 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Unless, someone conducts the amount of legal training in the CFR's necessary for people to get the full grasp of its complexity, it seems that people are going to remain unconvinced ... simply because it is more 'fun' to be argumentative and opinionated, than factual and stalwarts of truth. To this end, it is seemingly not possible to enlighten those whom intentionally choose to remain in the dark ... such is their choice in a free society.

I visited the Buff plant last January and met some of the people there. Nice folk, open to drop-in visitors, seemed to like their jobs. Saw that they did quite a bit of screwing, gluing, and wiring as well as a lot of packaging. Saw that Buff is making an effort to employ Americans putting things together rather than just stacking boxes of imports.

IMO, this thread starts on a humbug innuendo, like a Gladys Kravitz constantly looking through her window to find a witch in the house across the street. I don't like Buff's politics at all, and I wish he was less abrasive, but he's paying wages to Americans...and don't think that's true of all his detractors.



Dec 31, 2010 at 11:08 AM
RustyBug
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p.5 #5 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Was that at the Nashville facility? I'll likely drop in there one day this year.

less abrasive . . . although recently, he has begun to show the ability to reign that in a bit from what his reputation precipitates.

Yup. Paul is Paul, and he can be as direct and "rub you the wrong way" as much as a few others of us around this place. Many of us have conviction and passion for things photographic ... he's just managed to channel that into a product line more so than most of us ever will. Along with all that conviction and passion, comes a weeee bit of eccentricity and a touch of an attitude that a lot of people misunderstand and like to bandwagon against.

I figure I'll meet him one day ... not sure if I'll like him or if he'll rub me wrong (or vice versa) on that day. I'll have to be prepared for both. He'll likely never be the poster child for "bedside manner" or "politically correct" or "conventional" ... but that's part of what makes Paul, Paul. That and his passion and electronics expertise for things photographic.

Genius and eccentricity tend to not be exclusive of one another ... THAT is something Paul could probably be the "poster child" for. He and Einstein would make quite a pair, one with white hair the other one red.

Hmmmm, I wonder if there's any correlation to his latest monolight's name ... ya think.




Dec 31, 2010 at 11:27 AM
ddavid
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p.5 #6 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


RDKirk wrote:
I visited the Buff plant last January and met some of the people there. Nice folk, open to drop-in visitors, seemed to like their jobs. Saw that they did quite a bit of screwing, gluing, and wiring as well as a lot of packaging. Saw that Buff is making an effort to employ Americans putting things together rather than just stacking boxes of imports.

IMO, this thread starts on a humbug innuendo, like a Gladys Kravitz constantly looking through her window to find a witch in the house across the street. I don't like Buff's politics at all, and I wish
...Show more
I guess the question is whether there is more "screwing and gluing" or "packing and stacking?"

RustyBug... um, do you have a man-crush or something? Fawning over his Navy boat days, pining away about meeting him "one day" Albert Einstein!? Really?



Dec 31, 2010 at 12:14 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #7 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Not really ... just that Paul's story is a good one and there are a lot of FM 'lurkers' that deserve some additional perspective that they may not otherwise be aware of. As one who is familiar with the U.S. Navy's electronics program, maybe I'm fawning over it with a bit of American pride ... but this is a man who has paid his dues and a certain degree of respect should be in order.

I realize that this is a very "old school' way of thinking in today's realm of "cynicism is way cool" popularity ... but that's who I am and how I believe and to a degree I try to put forth the effort to support it. After all, here is a company that is older than this website, domain names, Mac's and even cyberspace itself (even older than some FM members as well) ... so I tend to think "old school" is kind of fitting.

I simply think that he deserves much more respect than a bunch of people taking shots at him with incomplete information. He's a man lke the rest of us and I don't know him ... but I respect what he has done and simply suggest that he be afforded a degree of fariness & respect that each of us would want as well (which Fred expects of FM members) ... something that a lot of people seem to take pleasure in not doing.

To that end, my comments are not a 'man-crush' for him, nor are my comments regarding anyone else who has been receiving disrespectful banter a "man-crush" for them. I just try to foster a spirit of fair play and consideration for the truth rather than succumbing to a 'mob-mentality' ... sometimes with intense earnest, sometimes a little light-heartedly to "take the edge off" ...

I still believe the OP's original question was fair and valid ... just aggravates me a bit that people don't seem to care to listen to equally fair, factual and valid responses. If the question was raised regarding another mfr's product with people crying foul without understanding the CFR's etc. ... I'd speak on behalf of that one as well, given my experience and training in the CFR's. Do you really think I'd agree that Paul comes across abrasive to some people if it were a "man-crush" or "fan-boy" thing, when it is indeed a matter of record and fact that some people find him abrasive at times. For me, it's neither a "man-crush" nor a "man-bash" thing ... it's a truth thing.

There are plenty of people in this world who would like to meet Bill Gates or any number of other company founders ... that's a respect thing, not a "man-crush" thing. While I might also like to meet Bill Gates, it's not very likely, but Paul is a more realistic possibility. Maybe I will, maybe I won't ... but it is a reasonable thought as I do travel through Nashville at least once or twice a year.

As for Einstein ... he was one smart "odd duck" ... just kinda rings a bell.



Edited on Jan 01, 2011 at 11:30 AM · View previous versions



Dec 31, 2010 at 01:22 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #8 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


16C ... sounds good. I'll be in San Diego next week, looking forward to the same 16C there.


Dec 31, 2010 at 02:20 PM
Seanzky
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p.5 #9 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


RDKirk wrote:
Did you read the link? Most of the parts for the iPhone come from countries other than China--it was only assembled in China. So does that make it "Made in China?" as it is labeled?


Foxconn. Made in China.




Jan 01, 2011 at 12:39 PM
Seanzky
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p.5 #10 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


I think I've figured out the whole misunderstanding here. (Dave, the OP, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I might have the same understanding as others here in thinking that the Vagabond Mini Lithium as a product (as a whole), which consists of the inverter, battery, etc., are made elsewhere and is mislabeled as Made in USA by exploiting a loophole. That is, it had its finishing touches in Tennessee, therefore by law it can be considered as a product made in the US. But is it really?

FYI, I'm not undermining the process that entails "finishing touches". It could be the most extensive part of it all, but is it considered "assembly" or "making"?

Mr. Buff has said that the front face plate is labeled Made in USA because that part was made here, but not the battery or the charger and whatever else. So what you have here is a Frankenstein with parts dug from different graves then.

It's like buying a phone with a label on the back of the LCD screen saying Made in Mexico, a keypad that says Made in Taiwan on the back, a battery that says Made in China in small print, and a body that says in big bold letters MADE IN USA. Conveniently enough, it's the only "Made in..." label visible to every potential consumer. Is it to fool others into thinking the product as a whole was made here rather than merely assembled here? Or was the entire phone really created (soldered, programmed, pieced, and tested from scratch) here with just parts ordered from other countries? Is that what the VML is?

This is where I think the VML is mislabeled. If Taiwan and China did the brunt of the work in manufacturing and mass producing the actual parts that makes the VML as a whole product, then the VML is "Designed and assembled in the USA". But if the law says it went through enough hands and hours in Tennessee...



Jan 01, 2011 at 12:55 PM
RDKirk
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p.5 #11 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Seanzky wrote:
Foxconn. Made in China.



Did you read the earlier link? Most of the components for the iPhone come from countries other than China--the Foxcomm factory assembles those parts. By your logic, iPhones should be labeled "Designed in the USA. Assembled in China."



Jan 01, 2011 at 02:43 PM
RDKirk
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p.5 #12 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Mr. Buff has said that the front face plate is labeled Made in USA because that part was made here, but not the battery or the charger and whatever else. So what you have here is a Frankenstein with parts dug from different graves then.

That's not what he said. He did not say the "Made in USA" label shows because that particular part was made here. He did say individual components are marked for their location of manufacture, and that's true anywhere. Open of your computer and examine the circuit boards.

I build my own computers. I determine the requirements, spec the parts, design the system. The components come from a variety of places--Singapore, China, the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Mexico. None of those components is a bare resister or capacitor--they are all full components like hard drives and circuit boards. I just wire, plug, and screw.

Where is the computer made, however? How can the computer be said to have been manufactured by anyone except me?

Edited on Jan 01, 2011 at 02:55 PM · View previous versions



Jan 01, 2011 at 02:54 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #13 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Seanzky wrote:
FYI, I'm not undermining the process that entails "finishing touches". It could be the most extensive part of it all, but is it considered "assembly" or "making"?


I don't think you'll find that soldering constitutes "finishing touches" as defined in the CFR ... please research and properly cite the legal definition of 'finishing touches".

It would seem that you're errantly associating the term 'finishing touches' with final assembly. These are very specific legal terms with very specific legal definitions. They are not lay terms with common lay definitions ... this is a legal matter that was raised ... so you need to keep it in the legal context, not simply applying the context that want it to be.

You guys are all over the board on this one as long as you refuse to recognize the statues and ALL that it entails ... which includes VERY SPECIFIC legal definitions for which they must all be legally defined. Without that, you're only spewing opinion predicated upon faulty assumptions.

This is not an issue of individual personal logic as to what makes sense to someone ... THIS IS A LEGAL ISSUE.



Jan 01, 2011 at 02:54 PM
kenyee
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p.5 #14 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Seems to me you guys are taking out the frustration w/ our politicians defining what "Made In The USA" means on PCB

Another interesting factoid...last year 1M jobs were created in the US by US companies. 1.4M jobs in *other countries* were created by those same US companies and if those jobs were created in the US, the jobless rate would be down to 8.9%:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-28-jobs-overseas_N.htm

So how many of you are going to complain to your congressmen this week about overseas jobs and their "Made In US" labeling rules?
It'd be interesting to see what the labeling rules are like countries like Switzerland...

p.s., I agree w/ RustyBug that this is a legal thing...and a politics thing. What you guys are doing is applying opinions to what your politicians have mucked up...




Jan 01, 2011 at 03:04 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #15 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


RDKirk wrote:
How can the computer be said to have been manufactured by anyone except me?


Sweet.
May not be a technically, legally correct explanation ... but I like it.



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:11 PM
corndog
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p.5 #16 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


To get to the bottom of the matter, you're right Rusty, but the moral/ethical aspects are worth discussing as well...you just have to announce which you're discussing at the beginning of the post to prevent this thread from bouncing all over the place.

My opinion is that Paul is probably meeting the minimum requirements to have the label printed legally, in which case...I don't care about the moral/ethical aspects. On the scale of issues like this that are worth getting excited over, this one is pretty low!



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:14 PM
Seanzky
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p.5 #17 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


RDKirk wrote:
That's not what he said. He did not say the "Made in USA" label shows because that particular part was made here. He did say individual components are marked for their location of manufacture, and that's true anywhere. Open of your computer and examine the circuit boards.

I build my own computers. I determine the requirements, spec the parts, design the system. The components come from a variety of places--Singapore, China, the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Mexico. None of those components is a bare resister or capacitor--they are all full components like hard drives and circuit boards. I just wire,
...Show more

Do you sell the computers you assemble? Because Mr. Buff sells the VMLs.

And you said "build". I grab parts and build my own, too, but I don't sell or label mine as "Made in Sean's house in US" so I can't really relate.



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:19 PM
Seanzky
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p.5 #18 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


corndog wrote:
My opinion is that Paul is probably meeting the minimum requirements to have the label printed legally, in which case...I don't care about the moral/ethical aspects. On the scale of issues like this that are worth getting excited over, this one is pretty low!


I think you've nailed it on the head with "minimum requirements".

Like I've said and someone else has said, even if Mr. Buff labeled it as "Made in China", people would still buy it knowing it was designed by PCB, Inc., assembled by PCB, Inc., QC'd by PCB, Inc., and covered by PCB, Inc.

I really believe that the "Made in USA" will get more people to buy it though and that if it doesn't, then it would probably have been labeled differently (honestly?).



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:25 PM
RustyBug
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p.5 #19 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


RDKirk wrote:
That's not what he said. He did not say the "Made in USA" label shows because that particular part was made here. He did say individual components are marked for their location of manufacture, and that's true anywhere. Open of your computer and examine the circuit boards.

I build my own computers. I determine the requirements, spec the parts, design the system. The components come from a variety of places--Singapore, China, the Philippines, Japan, South Korea, Thailand, Mexico. None of those components is a bare resister or capacitor--they are all full components like hard drives and circuit boards. I just wire,
...Show more

Repeating from the first time ...

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 19, Volume 1]
[Revised as of April 1, 2010]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 19CFR134.35]

[Page 838]

TITLE 19--CUSTOMS DUTIES

CHAPTER I--U.S. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY; DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

PART 134_COUNTRY OF ORIGIN MARKING--Table of Contents

Subpart D_Exceptions to Marking Requirements

Sec. 134.35 Articles substantially changed by manufacture.

(a) Articles other than goods of a NAFTA country. An article used in
the United States in manufacture which results in an article having a
name, character, or use differing from that of the imported article,
will be within the principle of the decision in the case of United
States v. Gibson-Thomsen Co., Inc., 27 C.C.P.A. 267 (C.A.D. 98). Under
this principle, the manufacturer or processor in the United States who
converts or combines the imported article into the different article
will be considered the ``ultimate purchaser'' of the imported article
within the contemplation of section 304(a), Tariff Act of 1930, as
amended (19 U.S.C. 1304(a)), and the article shall be excepted from
marking.
The outermost containers of the imported articles shall be
marked in accord with this part.
(b) Goods of a NAFTA country. A good of a NAFTA country which is to
be processed in the United States in a manner that would result in the
good becoming a good of the United States under the NAFTA Marking Rules
is excepted from marking. Unless the good is processed by the importer
or on its behalf, the outermost container of the good shall be marked in
accord with this part.

[T.D. 72-262, 37 FR 20318, Sept. 29, 1972, as amended by T.D. 94-1, 58
FR 69472, Dec. 30, 1993]


Edited on Jan 01, 2011 at 03:32 PM · View previous versions



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:30 PM
Paul Buff
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p.5 #20 · Vagabond Mini Lithium: Made in USA?


Seanzky wrote:
I think I've figured out the whole misunderstanding here. (Dave, the OP, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I might have the same understanding as others here in thinking that the Vagabond Mini Lithium as a product (as a whole), which consists of the inverter, battery, etc., are made elsewhere and is mislabeled as Made in USA by exploiting a loophole. That is, it had its finishing touches in Tennessee, therefore by law it can be considered as a product made in the US. But is it really?

FYI, I'm not undermining the process that entails "finishing touches". It could be the
...Show more

The question in my mind is why Seanzky and others here are so vigorously focused on condemning Paul C. Buff products . . . far and away the most widely used product line in the USA with the highest customer satisfaction record, without even looking at the status of other products? A couple of examples are Elinchrom and Profoto who proudly imply their products are Swiss and Swedish made with no disclaimer whatsoever, when in fact some of these products are 100% made in other countries and most contain similar percentages of offshore components as our products.

Then there is the issue of what country the money ends up in, and how much of it ends up in America, the number of American employees, American taxes paid and overall benefit to the US economy.

Regardless of labeling, GM Ford and Chrysler are considered "American" cars while Honda, Nissan, Toyota and Hyundai are considered Japanese and Korean cars respectively. Yet in many cases, or most, the "foreign" cars are made in American factories by American workers while the American cars are often made in Canada, Mexico, Europe and Asia.

A bigger issue is who owns these companies and where do the profits go?

Posters insist on comparing Paul C. Buff, Inc. to global publicly traded corporations when convenient, and referring to the company as a garage operation when that serves an agenda.

Fact is, Paul C. Buff, Inc. is a privately held Sub S corporation (effectively a proprietorship) 100% owned by myself. I share a percentage of the profits with three Vice Presidents and pay personal income taxes, SSI and Medicare on my portion at the Federal rate approximately 40%. yet am constantly referred to as not paying my share. The majority of the profits are left in the company for R&D and company financial independence.

We own and utilize approximately 38,000 square feet of facilities in Nashville and employ currently 48 well paid employees. We also contract a good portion of our robotic assembly work to a firm in Kansas where a similar amount of facility space and employees are maintained. 100% of the profits derived end up in the US economy, with the Federal and State governments receiving on the order of 50% of total profits.

Contrast this to the global investors who "own" publicly traded corporations where the lion's share of profits ends up in other countries, and that portion that goes to American "owners" is taxed at a total rate of 15%, with no SSI or Medicare obligation whatsoever.

As to our overall 2010 balance sheet, our net sales amounted to just over $20,000,000, with about $4 million going to Asian vendors, $4 million going to Kansas and $4 million going to other US vendors, our American workers, etc. Approximately 75% of the total cash flow remains in America with, again, an inordinate percentage of that going to the US government. Contrary to contemporary myth, there are absolutely no tax loopholes or breaks for Sub S companies such as mine . . . these go to the large international well lobbied global public companies . . . not small business American companies that provide the majority of American jobs.

As to specific products such as Vagabond Mini, the molds are typically made in Asia and initial molded parts runs are made in Asia. As the molds are tweaked and perfected, many of them are shipped to American and parts ultimately molded in Tennessee. The simple fact is that rust-belt American mold makers are technically inferior to Asians and mold costs are about triple. In fact, the majority of American molding operations quote a profit-added price, then have the molds made in Asia at 1/3 to 1/2 what they charge to US customer.

Case in point: Alienbees parts are molded in TN and the components are about 90% purchased from US firms and 100% of the manufacturing, testing, repairing, etc is done in the US by American workers. Essentially all of the profits derived remains in the US economy. That does not mean 90% of the components are actually made in America, because the US vendors typical manufacture the components offshore even though they are purchased as "American" components.

Quite simply, this is the state of global economics and I, as one of the few remaining American manufacturers, can do little to change it. As for labeling, I make every effort to comply with current regulations, ethics and industry standards, and to provide complete disclosure.

I could easily shift the 100 or so American jobs offshore and vastly increase my personal profits, as do most American companies, but stubbornly refuse to give up on American consumers and workers . . .I guess I'm too old to give up any more traditional American values than necessary for the sake of profits.

I find it odd that a handful of negative-agenda activists on FM choose to demean the one American manufacturer that truly works extremely hard to retain American values while dismissing the profits-at-any-cost antics of larger global public corporations.

Is FM a forum dedicated to the art of photography or a gathering point for hate mongers? What is is it? Jealousy, anti-Americanism or just joy in the art of negativism? And why is it that whenever a member dare posts a logical balanced response they are labeled Paul Buff groupies?

And where are the females who constitute about 40% of our customer base?

On a final note, I served in the USMC during the Korean war, though I actually served in southern California. In addition to combat training where I learned the survival skills needed to remain active in the FM jungle, I attended joint USMC/ USN intensive electronics schooling where I graduated #1 in my class of 500. I invented/designed and manufactured cutting edge recording studio equipment widely used world wide and partially responsible for the sale of perhaps 300,000,000 recordings and hundreds of gold records from the Beatles to the Beach boys, and received an honorary lifetime fellowship in the prestigious Audio Engineering Society from Ray Dolby.

I have designed, manufactured and sold approximately 600,000 studio flash units, primarily direct to American photographers, typically at 1/2 the selling price of other products thanks to innovative direct marketing. My formal education is one year in a community college, and Paul C. Buff, Inc was founded in 1981 with an investment of $3000 for 3000 shares of Common Stock. These shares are now worth approximately $100 million dollars, or about $30,000 per share were I to sell them.

I would be interested in hearing the credentials of the various antagonists here that profess such expertise in all things business.

Lot's of ammunition here for those who will chose to label me as an arrogant self serving idiot.



Jan 01, 2011 at 03:31 PM
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