First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. That includes the inverter (Indeed, it is not a stock "Samlex" inverter (Samlex doesn't make inverters by the way, they are made by BA Power in Taiwan, as the Mini inverters. We did extensive redesign to BA Power's standard inverters in order to achieve the performance and reliability we wanted.
Same with the batteries . . . The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries....Show more →
Well, it's actually not that funny because I quoted my excerpt from that exact same post. What you included, which I chose to omit because it was irrelevant to the "manufacturing" part, talks about the VML being designed in TN, that all Samlex (Canadian) inverters are also made in Taiwan (mind you Samlex labels their inverters "Made in Taiwan") and that the inverters and batteries were redesigned, etc.
Once again, that has nothing to do with assembly, wiring, testing, packaging, and labeling it "Made in USA". The question was never "did PCB really design the VML!?!?" The question was, "Is it really considered 'Made in USA'?"
That's basically my whole point ... unless you are reading directly from ALL the legal statutes AND have ALL the information regarding both the LAW and the actuality of the ENTIRE manufacturing processes ... everyone is only guessing ... including the $700/hr lawyers.
Granted the delays have probably heightened our awareness to the foriegn contribution ... and that goes against the grain of common sense regarding "Made in USA" ... but common sense (as derived from the FTC's website) isn't a substitue for the law.
I wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting / thinking lawsuit ... just my way of saying this whole legal dialogue is predicated upon grossly incomplete legal information ... which I find is unfair to bash anyone with. I still think the OP's original post was a good question though, based on the limited info at the time.
Based on what Mr. Buff has said, I imagine they would come in boxes by the thousands and his team would put them together, pass it along a line, test it out, bag them, pass it on where it will be bundled with the paperwork and whatever accessories, and then finally into the box. I'm sure I'm missing more than one step in the whole process but is that not the gist of it? Please let me know if I'm wrong. I don't mind being corrected.
He said:
The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
I'm reading that they get separate components:
Battery pack
Housing piece #1
Housing piece #2
Housing piece #3
Housing piece #4
Housing piece #5
Circuit and PC boards (at least one board, probably two)
And these components are "assembled, tested, wired, and packaged" in Nashville.
If anyone thinks they're being duped by Paul ... then cancel your order, file a suit with the FTC, call your congressman ... and for goodness sake, DON'T BUY ONE !!!
Or ... go to study the language of the statues, the statutes, case studies and rulings until you realize that you're not being duped and that Paul is being compliant with the law ... and which you have also the right to address congress in an effort to get the law changed. Of course, there might be one or two "BIG BOY" lobbyist in your way on that one.
I only get that he designed everything and redesigned/modified everything else to make the whole thing work, but the wiring part sounds to me like putting the custom battery pack together. If that's the case then the battery is definitely "Made in USA". But if the inverter has to be assembled in similar fashion, not only is it correctly labeled as "Made in USA" but also the Taiwanese are probably ripping off Mr. Buff. Based on my previous conversations with engineers from Samlex, they don't have to do any inverter assembling.
But if the inverter has to be assembled in similar fashion, not only is it correctly labeled as "Made in USA" but also the Taiwanese are probably ripping off Mr. Buff. Based on my previous conversations with engineers from Samlex, they don't have to do any inverter assembling.
Unless the Buff's intention is to retain as much assembly in Nashville as possible, even if it could be done in Taiwan.
The iPhone's Trade Deficit Problem
— By Josh Harkinson
Pundits love to claim that America's job market will come roaring back as soon as everyone learns to "embrace the innovation economy" and churn out more high-tech gadgets. Well, maybe they should think different. Two academic researchers at the Asian Development Bank Institute in Tokyo recently found that the most iconic American gadget of all—Apple's iPhone—last year added $1.9 billion to the US trade deficit.
I just received notification from PCB that the batteries are being held at customs yeilding another anticipated shipping date. I really need to place that VBII up for sale, anticipating the arrival of the mini......
Paul Buff wrote:
First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. That includes the inverter (Indeed, it is not a stock "Samlex" inverter (Samlex doesn't make inverters by the way, they are made by BA Power in Taiwan, as the Mini inverters. We did extensive redesign to BA Power's standard inverters in order to achieve the performance and reliability we wanted.
Same with the batteries . . . The individual Lithium cells are designed and manufactured by a substantial Chinese firm, but the pack itself (containing 16 cells, a controller-protection--charge/discharge regulation circuit, wiring and connector system, and custom molded housing was designed by yours truly, as was the five piece molded Vagabond housing itself and the circuitry and PC boards that together form the product from the component parts. The product itself is assembled, tested, wired and packaged (manufactured) in the US. Some of the components are made in the US and some are made in other countries.
The VML back panel bears the clear statement "Contains components from various countries of origin".
Let me pose the question: If you took a Delco (American brand) battery, an Apple iPhone, a Texas Instruments processor, designed and built a customer security system controller board in Kansas, assembled, tested boxed and shipped the product in your factory in Boston from these components, where would you say it was manufactured? Even considering that the battery, iPhone and processor were actually made in other countries.
From this jumping off point, I direct your attention specifically to Elinchrom's website link where it is clearly stated their products are manufactured in Switzerland. Yet it is widely known that some of their products . . . D Lite and, I believe, BX500 series at least, are completely manufactured in India and likely never see Switzerland at all.
http://www.elinchrom.com/corporate.php
"From our headquarters and manufacturing facility overlooking Lake Geneva, we export Elinchrom studio flash around the world."
Do you think Manfrotto stands are manufactured in Italy or that Chryslers are Made in USA, or that Photoflex umbrellas or just about any other umbrella you can name aren't made in China? And just look at that Chinese battery and Taiwan inverter in the Profoto "Swedish" BatPack.
Perhaps Peter has the best approached . . . that used by Apple: "Designed by Apple Computer in Cupertino, CA" with no mention of where it was actually made, boxed, tested and shipped from. ...Show more →
So Paul C. Buff tweaked a few specs and ordered takeout from China and then screws it together in Tennessee and it qualifies as Made In USA? In defense of this "anomaly" he attacks Elinchrom and Apple, both of whom clearly and accurately mark their products?
I only get that he designed everything and redesigned/modified everything else to make the whole thing work, but the wiring part sounds to me like putting the custom battery pack together. If that's the case then the battery is definitely "Made in USA". But if the inverter has to be assembled in similar fashion, not only is it correctly labeled as "Made in USA" but also the Taiwanese are probably ripping off Mr. Buff. Based on my previous conversations with engineers from Samlex, they don't have to do any inverter assembling....Show more →
In my dealings with Chinese battery manufacturers they make the packs with the circuitry pre-installed. You cannot charge the individual cells without a way to balance them... I doubt the cells arrive in TN unassembled.
But who cares, if it works that's great. As an added bonus, when it breaks you have a local guy to call. I think most of the issues could be solved with thicker skin and a PR department.
Yet the Journal neglected a more important point: There's nothing forcing Apple to manufacture the iPhone abroad. The ADBI researchers estimate that Apple's gross profit margin on iPhones in 2009 was a whopping 64 percent. This leads them to conclude that "profit maximization behavior," and not competition, is what's driving Apple to China. In other words, Apple would rather make a little bit more money than employ more Americans.
If all iPhones were assembled in the US, it would have added $5.7 billion to US exports last year. When are we gonna get an app for that?
That suggests Buff is on the right track even just to assemble his device in the US.
64% gross profit margin is 36% cost of good . . . actually higher cost than most distributed products . . . 25% COG is fairly typical. But somewhat like PCB, Apple sells direct or through their own stores (which cost money to operate.)
FYI, our AB COG is about 50% and Einstein is 60%. That's just the cost to produce the product. You have to add all the rest of your costs . . . employees, building, advertising, incoming shipping, tech help etc. before you get to the profit number. It is unlikely that any distributed manufacturer could make a profit with a COG over 35-40%.
Battery pack
Housing piece #1
Housing piece #2
Housing piece #3
Housing piece #4
Housing piece #5
Circuit and PC boards (at least one board, probably two)
And these components are "assembled, tested, wired, and packaged" in Nashville.
RD has the closest to 100% correct right answer. If you look at the pictures you see switches, battery level indicator, charger jack, battery jack. indicator lights, fuse, and other components, coupled to a circuit board with integrated circuits and other components, all designed in Nashville and manufactured, warranted and serviced in Nashville or Kansas. This forms the controller assembly that makes the inverter and battery become a usable Vagabond Mini product. Take this away and you no longer have a Vagabond Mini.
The insistent OP got the right answer from his "$700 attorney" the first time, then convinced him all the components described above, together with assembly, wiring and testing don't exist and that we just bought an inverter and battery and stuck them in a box.
BTW, the complete Vagabond Mini unit, sans battery sells to you for the same or less than just the similar Samlex inverter alone from a discounter. The proprietary Lithium batttey pack sells on the order of one quarter to one half what an equivalent pack would sell for, if it existed. Look up the prices and specs for Profoto or Elinchrom packs, both lithium and SLA.
For those interested, the stock Samlex inverter is 100% made in Taiwan by BA Power and thus must be labeled Made in Taiwan because it forms the entire product and is untouched by American hands.
Without the redesign work we did, the stack Samlex will blow it's Mosfets in certain flash unit operating configurations and loads.
Paul Buff wrote:
...The insistent OP got the right answer from his "$700 attorney" ...
Please be careful with attribution. I was the original poster and I have not made any reference to a $700/hr attorney. That was someone else.
...BTW, the complete Vagabond Mini unit, sans battery sells to you for the same or less than just the similar Samlex inverter alone from a discounter. The proprietary Lithium batttey pack sells on the order of one quarter to one half what an equivalent pack would sell for, if it existed. Look up the prices and specs for Profoto or Elinchrom packs, both lithium and SLA.
The price of the VML is totally irrelevant to the theme of this thread. What we have been discussing is whether the VML can accurately be labeled as having been "Made in USA". In my estimation, the case made in support of that labeling seems weak at best. While possibly legally defensible, it is clearly misleading. If the VML were subject to the same labeling requirements as automobiles regarding percentage of foreign-sourced parts, would we not see a "window sticker" showing 90% or more foreign content? The battery, the casework, and the inverter are all non-US made components, are they not? Common sense rather than a law degree leads to the inescapable conclusion that while the product may have been conceived, designed, and assembled in the US, it was definitely not MADE in the US and should not be so labeled.
Perhaps you would care to answer the interesting question posted earlier in this thread by someone other than myself: Where was the VML's front panel that says "Made in USA" printed?
If you look at the pictures you see switches, battery level indicator, charger jack, battery jack. indicator lights, fuse, and other components, coupled to a circuit board with integrated circuits and other components, all designed in Nashville and manufactured, warranted and serviced in Nashville or Kansas. This forms the controller assembly that makes the inverter and battery become a usable Vagabond Mini product. Take this away and you no longer have a Vagabond Mini.
The insistent OP got the right answer from his "$700 attorney" the first time, then convinced him all the components described above, together with assembly, wiring and testing don't exist and that we just bought an inverter and battery and stuck them in a box.
BTW, the complete Vagabond Mini unit, sans battery sells to you for the same or less than just the similar Samlex inverter alone from a discounter. The proprietary Lithium batttey pack sells on the order of one quarter to one half what an equivalent pack would sell for, if it existed. Look up the prices and specs for Profoto or Elinchrom packs, both lithium and SLA.
For those interested, the stock Samlex inverter is 100% made in Taiwan by BA Power and thus must be labeled Made in Taiwan because it forms the entire product and is untouched by American hands.
Without the redesign work we did, the stack Samlex will blow it's Mosfets in certain flash unit operating configurations and loads.
I actually emailed your customer service awhile back and came to this same conclusion. Was trying to make my own vagabond mini but there are no inverters on the market that are capable enough. So really its a hell of a deal.....
If you want to save money, just wire up a few of your own batteries. Youll probably need more than one anyways. The only reason I can see for using another product would be if you wanted something with really fast recycling times, as the inverter paul is using is only 120W.
kawasakiguy37 wrote:
I actually emailed your customer service awhile back and came to this same conclusion. Was trying to make my own vagabond mini but there are no inverters on the market that are capable enough. So really its a hell of a deal.....
If you want to save money, just wire up a few of your own batteries. Youll probably need more than one anyways. The only reason I can see for using another product would be if you wanted something with really fast recycling times, as the inverter paul is using is only 120W.
Vagabond mega lithium perhaps?
Fine...
I think most of the beef is the fact that it says "Made in the USA" on a bunch of components that were sourced and imported from China and elsewhere. We can split hairs, but the bottom line is that many people believe it's misleading at best and possibly illegal. It seems that the responses range from "it's a good value" to "Apple and Elinchrom outsource too"
It is a good value and Apple and others do source their stuff but they do not mis-label their stuff. I haven't seen any factory tours of the PCB facilities so I assume there is more assembly than manufacturing going on in Tennessee. (along the same line of logic, all my kids toys were made in Michigan because I put them together on Christmas morning. lol)
I think most of the beef is the fact that it says "Made in the USA" on a bunch of components that were sourced and imported from China and elsewhere. We can split hairs, but the bottom line is that many people believe it's misleading at best and possibly illegal. It seems that the responses range from "it's a good value" to "Apple and Elinchrom outsource too"
There have been a couple of responses indicating that "components that were sourced and imported" can be assembled into a finished product in the US and legally claim "Made in the USA."
