kenyee wrote:
Seems to me you guys are taking out the frustration w/ our politicians defining what "Made In The USA" means on PCB
Another interesting factoid...last year 1M jobs were created in the US by US companies. 1.4M jobs in *other countries* were created by those same US companies and if those jobs were created in the US, the jobless rate would be down to 8.9%: http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-12-28-jobs-overseas_N.htm
So how many of you are going to complain to your congressmen this week about overseas jobs and their "Made In US" labeling rules?
It'd be interesting to see what the labeling rules are like countries like Switzerland... ...Show more →
Where individual components can be labeled 'Made in China', 'Made in Taiwan', etc.. there's nothing wrong in labelling a control panel as 'Made in the USA'. The implications of that are quite different - obviously - with one being seen and the others not. There would be a whole book of tricks could be applied to suit the end purpose, and I don't think - ever - you will get an admittance that in labelling a product 'Made Anywhere' you will force a change. It is what it is - whatever your thought persuasion, and your PC enfactuation.
Where 1.4M jobs are created abroad from the USA, I'm grateful for that Of course I would be ! But likewise, it would be neat if they could be retained at home, but REALLY I doubt the USA could afford to buy USA built products if they were all USA originated, that's just the way it is.
There are more bizzare things happen in Industry than the mere labelling of products, I've seen a LOT of them and it really doesn't make sense, other than it's cheaper, it's convenient, it's PC, it's a trade off, it's a morale boost, it's keeping people employed and preventing another company closure, it provides a feelgood factor, it's self indulgent, it's a marketing ploy.. whatever it is, unless you really want to change things for whatever motive, just observing isn't enough. I agree with all those motives - they're what makes the world go around.
I think the VML looks quite neat and despite the fact I never have a use for these kind of things, it would be a useful tool. Whatever the label on the control panel was, wouldn't really bother me as I know all the bits are compiled from everywhere, and it wouldn't really matter as product failure would be more paramount and irritating.
RustyBug wrote:
You guys are all over the board on this one as long as you refuse to recognize the statues and ALL that it entails ... which includes VERY SPECIFIC legal definitions for which they must all be legally defined. Without that, you're only spewing opinion predicated upon faulty assumptions.
This is not an issue of individual personal logic as to what makes sense to someone ... THIS IS A LEGAL ISSUE.
You seem to have very little first hand knowledge of PCB's specific manufacturing/assembly process to be arguing the VERY SPECIFIC legal definitions. It is starting to sound like Bill Clinton in the Oval Office around here.
I understand you have a PCB product on order, but do you have any additional insight into the company that may be pertinent?
I do not own any of PCB's products but the Vagabond looks interesting as does the BatPack from Profoto. Personally, I am tired of equivocations and caveats and loopholes and "very specific legal definitions" – it just feels icky. At the beginning of the day it seems that more people get up for work in China to make a PCB product than in Tennessee.
And this does appear to be a political issue, many countries might not allow such nuance in their labeling.
ddavid wrote:
"very specific legal definitions" – it just feels icky.
... so does 'libel'
As a 'nobody' ... I'd suggest people pay attention to what they continue to write from here on out on this matter. Persisting to persecute Paul in light of what has been factually and objectively presented ... think about it.
The OP's question was a valid one ... the bandwagon persection based on your opinion's and continued intentional ignoring the facts and basis of law continues to edge in a direction that enters into another legal realm.
I still respect the OP's question, and believe that the OP has a better sense of understanding now than at the beginning of this thread. Seeking truth and understanding is a good thing and should be applauded and respected. The First Amendment does afford 'free speech' ... but it does not afford for 'libel'. This too is a LEGAL issue ... and this is supposed to be a PHOTOGRAPHY forum.
An honest question was raised ... and an honest answer was provided.
Paul Buff wrote:
First, the Vagabond Mini product was designed in TN. ...Same with the batteries . . .
I don't give a rat's posterior where a thing is designed and engineered because, in the end, somebody in a plant across the pond will make a unilateral decision to cut costs or ignore quality metrics in the interest of higher production numbers and increased profit.
This is particularly true in China.
FYI, I work for a large multi-national corp. with plants in N. America, S. America, India and China and we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out when the Chinese are cutting corners and /or not telling us the truth. They have slipped counterfeit components into electrical systems, used unspecified alloying elements in castings (or omitted them altogether) and mixed parts from unapproved sources into the bins containing parts from certified vendors. And these are just the things we know about. Who knows what they may have actually gotten away with.
kenyee wrote:
Seems to me you guys are taking out the frustration w/ our politicians defining what "Made In The USA" means on PCB
I did suggest that yesterday. Paul's longwinded, misdirectional posts kinda prove it, by doing all they can to avoid the actual issue and dragging legal definition red herrings around. (And now, I see, blaming others for the expected delays, just for a change.)
Seanzky wrote:
Do you sell the computers you assemble? Because Mr. Buff sells the VMLs.
And you said "build". I grab parts and build my own, too, but I don't sell or label mine as "Made in Sean's house in US" so I can't really relate.
But legally, you could so label them, as could I.
As Rustybug has just said, your real argument is with politicians.
If I had to guess, I suspect Buff's moral position is that he's maintaining the use of an American workforce that is economically unnecessary--he certainly could have the entire unit built in China and imported in boxes that only had to be stacked by minimum wage high school dropouts.
He chooses to do as much in the US as component sourcing allows. And you have a gripe with that?
As a 'nobody' ... I'd suggest people pay attention to what they continue to write.
Please point out where I have libeled anyone? You? PCB? The OP?
It appears there two questions here.
1. Do the laws and nuances of labeling country of manufacture accurately describe a product.
2. Does PCB comply and meet the minimum requirements of these existing laws?
I do not know the answer to number two and number one is outside the scope of the OP's question.
I thought it was a straightforward question by the OP, in response he got a dizzying flurry of replies ranging from fanboys to deflections to caveats and accusations.
Ho1972 wrote:
I don't give a rat's posterior where a thing is designed and engineered because, in the end, somebody in a plant across the pond will make a unilateral decision to cut costs or ignore quality metrics in the interest of higher production numbers and increased profit.
This is particularly true in China.
FYI, I work for a large multi-national corp. with plants in N. America, S. America, India and China and we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out when the Chinese are cutting corners and /or not telling us the truth. They have slipped counterfeit components into electrical systems, used unspecified alloying elements in castings (or omitted them altogether) and mixed parts from unapproved sources into the bins containing parts from certified vendors. And these are just the things we know about. Who knows what they may have actually gotten away with.
Maybe PCB has a better handle on it we do......Show more →
Actually, Buff has related all the same problems in this forum and on his own, and has also related that as a reason he does as much with American sources as remaining American component manufacturing allows.
Ho1972 wrote:
I don't give a rat's posterior where a thing is designed and engineered because, in the end, somebody in a plant across the pond will make a unilateral decision to cut costs or ignore quality metrics in the interest of higher production numbers and increased profit.
This is particularly true in China.
FYI, I work for a large multi-national corp. with plants in N. America, S. America, India and China and we spend an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out when the Chinese are cutting corners and /or not telling us the truth. They have slipped counterfeit components into electrical systems, used unspecified alloying elements in castings (or omitted them altogether) and mixed parts from unapproved sources into the bins containing parts from certified vendors. And these are just the things we know about. Who knows what they may have actually gotten away with.
Maybe PCB has a better handle on it we do......Show more →
Of necessity, yes I have a pretty good handle on it, as I'm sure does Elinchrom and Prototo and Apple et all. The bottom line is would you rather pay $239.95 for a Vag Mini, with complete customer protection and service, or $500. Or perhaps I should close my factory, have it all made in China, adopt conventional distribution methods and sell it for $400, replete with Made In China labeling? Or I could close my factory, have it made in China and keep selling it direct for $239.95 and put more money in pocket and tell my employees sorry . . . you'll have to apply for a minimum wage job at MacDonalds?
No Clinton here . . . is is what exists and is, with no place for redefinition. The biggest problem we all face is constant global and Federal attempts at redefinition of almost everything we have been accustomed to . . . a not-so-brave new world in which all must adapt or perish. Nixon done it by awakening the sleeping giant! Thanks Al Gore too for inventing the internet and global warming. And thanks Frank and Dodd and Bush and Pelosi for forcing banks into selling a bunch of houses to people who couldn't afford them, then letting the rest of us bail them out.
Maybe a broader, sensible view of the total picture might be useful than selective slamming.
I wasn't suggesting or specifying that you did or had ... just pointing that too much of this dialogue is flirting with such things ... only referencing your apparent disdain for legal issue matters and suggesting that people can still be held accountable for their actions ... even if they don't agree with the law.
So for those who don't agree with the law on this matter (i.e. labeling) go take up the fight with Congress, and please (I'm asking) stop making potentially defaming remarks. Seeking to understand & learn is great, challenging status quo can be good, yearning for truth and fairness is wonderful ... intentionally ignoring truth and facts in order to facilitate casting stones, not so great.
corndog wrote:
Aren't you doing a little prodding of your own?
Perhaps.
I am simply amazed at the thinness of skin around here. I mean, just because I own a Hasselblad doesn't cause me to defend/justify my choice, that's silly. Why are people threatened by asking questions about PCB's nomenclature practices? Heck, most people have said nice stuff about the product itself. Too many people around here are wearing panties and they are apparently in a bunch. lol
Personally I think PCB would do well to delegate and hire a PR person. Most of this could have been avoided by a simple answer instead of pointing to Apple and Elinchrom (both of whom correctly label) and introduction of the numerous caveats.
Again, the product looks kinda cool and fairly priced.
1. Do the laws and nuances of labeling country of manufacture accurately describe a product.
2. Does PCB comply and meet the minimum requirements of these existing laws?
I do not know the answer to number two and number one is outside the scope of the OP's question.
I thought it was a straightforward question by the OP, in response he got a dizzying flurry of replies ranging from fanboys to deflections to caveats and accusations.
Rustybug has already explained why both questions are out of the scope of being adequately answered in a forum like this. This kind of question is not going to get a "straightforward" answer even on a legal forum.
ddavid wrote: Perhaps.
I am simply amazed at the thinness of skin around here. I mean, just because I own a Hasselblad doesn't cause me to defend/justify my choice, that's silly. Why are people threatened by asking questions about PCB's nomenclature practices? Heck, most people have said nice stuff about the product itself. Too many people around here are wearing panties and they are apparently in a bunch. lol
Panties indeed, in fact, look at the response I drew from you.
ddavid wrote:
1. Do the laws and nuances of labeling country of manufacture accurately describe a product.
2. Does PCB comply and meet the minimum requirements of these existing laws?
First, I'm not legal authority to answer these questions ... nor is anyone here.
But to give my OPINION and INTERPRETATION based upon my understanding, training and experience in the CFR's ... WITHOUT having FULLY researched ALL the pertinent STATUTES on this matter ...
1. Simply put ... NO.
That is not and never was the intention. Unfortunately, lay perspective such as the ones being posed here leads to much confusion.
2. PCB possibly EXCEEDS the minimum requirements set forth in the statues as he has labeled the subcomponents wherein he may not have been required to do so as provided by the statutes in all instances.
I RE-ITERATE ... this is my OPINION and INTERPRETATION based upon my understanding, training and experience in the CFR's ... WITHOUT having FULLY researched ALL the pertinent STATUTES on this matter. Although I might add that I have probably researched this matter deeper into the statutes than most others here ... holding to my word at the beginning of this thread that I would do so.
With a serious legal matter having been raised and then suggesting people are being 'thin skinned' about it is a bit irresponsible imo. I have tried to afford the members of FM a factual & truthful diretion to where the ANSWER can be found ... and it isn't here in this forum with opinion based banter.
Any product is made from individual components. There's one place where all of these components are being assembled, but they're not necessarily manufactured right there as well. They're bought from another company, which assembles them from parts manufactured in-house and bought elsewhere. This supply chain can be very long and it is absolutely impossible to follow it to the beginning. If one did, the raw materials would come from all over the world including under the sea.
So the best way to determine where the whole product was made is to see where the final assembly took place. This is usually also where a large if not the largest part of the cost originates (Is that the right word? I hope you know what I mean.).
Yes, I know what you mean. Phase One digital backs are made in Denmark, but with a cheap imported American made Kodak sensor. Same problem with the new Pentax 645D. Hard to find solid European and Japanese products these days.
[/IRONY]
The point is, that country racism don't belong in this new century. It does not matter where things are made, if proper QA is in place.
! Touche! 