cordellwillis wrote:
Are you, and those that agree with you, saying we should be okay with paying whatever the cost is? I'm sure that's not the case. Everyone has gone to a store at one time or another and looked at a price tag and thought the price was ridiculous high.
I would never dictate to anyone what they should spend on anything.
I don't have an iphone. Not because I don't like it but because I think it's ridiculous to pay $50 a month just for cell phone service, let alone the $100 or so an iphone would run.
I was mostly ciriticizing those who are essentially making fun of RPG and comparing what they offer to paddy and concluding that RPG is ridiculously overpriced.
My point is simply that it's really NO MORE overpriced than a $4,500 wedding photographer might be. Of course we've gotten so used to craigslist photographers (app store applications that sell for $2.99) uncle bobs (shareware and freeware) that suddenly when a photographer tries to actually run a successful business we laugh them off.
That was my point.
If you take RPG's $590 pricetag, subtract $170 for the Xkeys keyboard you've got $420.
They still have provide you with the neatly printed little labels and I presume they install them in the keys for you as well. Check price on custom keyboard overlays and you'll see that that gets you to basically $350 or so for the software.
If these people want to feed their families, pay taxes and remain competitive they're goin to have to charge you for tech support, new development (follow up with new versions of LR etc). Just because someone with a lot of free time on their hands has decided to do it for free doesn't take the value away from RPG's product.
If you keep in mind how specialistic a product, and how little market penetration they can expect you can see that they certainly can't do a volume strategy... so yeah $350 is perfectly reasonable.
I personally use Paddy. It's NOT available for the mac users, so obviously they don't have that option... but more importantly I have more free time than some busier folks... so yeah I can waste time reconfiguring my paddy settings while I try to come up with something good. Someone who is much busier would likely find RPG a bargain after using it for a while.
Once again.. Prophoto runs some $260 or so... and if you had to draw a comparison... Prophoto is kind of like someone selling a layout setting for Paddy... because they are using wordpress, which is free for everyone to use already. Yet nobody makes fun of prophoto and it's price.
lisy78 wrote:
Individual choices aside, here's something that I don't get:
How do individuals (supposedly) belonging to a group of professionals who apparently believe (or would like clients to believe) there is VALUE in buying an 8x10 for $50.00 and who are frustrated to find clients who expect to get a DVD of the images delivered with their one time special $99 session fee portrait session ... and who are appalled to find clients take their branded images, crop out their logo and make their own prints...
...
how do these same people then get off on ridiculing a company that is making a specialized product they believe is worth $XXX, protest at the relatively modest price of a niche product etc?...Show more →
I disagree. No one is making fun of anyone here either. I think the analogy above doesn't really apply to the thread. Everyone places value on certain products in a different way. If a photographers potential clients think their products are overpriced, they will go somewhere else, or just not buy at that price. It could be for a number of reasons, not solely because there isn't value in that price.
No one is forcing the price on anyone here. Some disagree, others find value in it. I understand what the product does and how it could make things faster. But to me, the difference in efficiency will be different for me than compared to others. For those that struggle with workflow efficiency, this is probably a gold mine for them.
For my clients that appreciate photography (not everyone appreciates photography the same), my $50 8x10 is a bargain. Literally, I've had clients ask me how much an 8x10 was and they responded "thats all?".
So in short, I guess I disagree with the generalization that photographers are hypocrites if we don't buy or value expensive or over-priced products :P
sboerup wrote:
I disagree. No one is making fun of anyone here either.
I'm not going to out those who did but their posts are stil in the thread... there were clearly posts making fun of the product and or price.
It's expesive. It's NOT outlandishly overpriced as was suggested.
And yes the analogies between photographers, craigslist photographers and uncle bobs DOES hold true. These days it seems like everyone wants to price everyone else out of a living wage. Heck I showed an iOs app to a fellow photog... app had a ton of super-cool features that would definitely help in certain situations... app was $9.99. That was overpriced for an application.
RIIIIGHT.
My point was simply that wether you buy it or not, you would think that Photographers as a group shoudl be a bit more sensitive to silly generalizations like "It's ridiculously expensive ha ha ha" made by laypeople who don't know all that goes into delivering that final canvas.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
Most of the smartest things I've ever done in business have been investing money (that some would say was too much) in things that save me time. If I wasn't already editing weddings really quickly, this would be a no-brainer for me.
sure, but you self agreed RPG makes no sense to you. i am just trying to save moneys to people who might want to be puzzled. Get G13 or cherry programable keyboard for much less and with more features or learn to use normal keyboards and you will have added benefit to work that way on more workstation, notebook on move etc.
Lisy78: Ok, spend your money on it... My take is as follows... I can do EVERYTHING I want for 60 bucks... does that mean I am Uncle Bob because I cannot justify spending 10x the price for 10% more value? I often make this choice, when I am getting a meal at McDonald's I don't feel I am less of a person for not super sizing. I can buy a car without having to buy a Ferrari. I spent a total of about 45 minutes to program my Belkin and Wacom to do all that I want. If I needed more, I am capable of writing and compiling my own code, I don't because I just don't need the features.
If you need that 10% more value and are willing to spend 600 go for it. I personally feel they are pricing themselves out of the market. If I wrote similar code that worked with a game pad would you say I should get 540 bucks a copy? I wouldn't expect it to fly off the shelves at that price, that's for sure. But hey, If I run a lemonade stand and charge 100,000,000 a glass I just need to sell one glass right?
Oh and yes, It *IS* ridiculously expensive... And yes I do know what goes into making it.
Thanks for bringing this up. I did not know things like this existed. I have always wanted shortcut keys to the Develop sliders. I read through the thread and saw that Paddy was a free option. I downloaded it, installed it, and tried it out. It is exactly what I needed! I can zip through my photos much easier.
Before, I would have to use the mouse a lot and after editing a lot of photos, my wrists would become sore.
Lisy78: Ok, spend your money on it... My take is as follows... I can do EVERYTHING I want for 60 bucks... does that mean I am Uncle Bob because I cannot justify spending 10x the price for 10% more value? I often make this choice, when I am getting a meal at McDonald's I don't feel I am less of a person for not super sizing. I can buy a car without having to buy a Ferrari. I spent a total of about 45 minutes to program my Belkin and Wacom to do all that I want. If I needed more, I am capable of writing and compiling my own code, I don't because I just don't need the features.
If you need that 10% more value and are willing to spend 600 go for it. I personally feel they are pricing themselves out of the market. If I wrote similar code that worked with a game pad would you say I should get 540 bucks a copy? I wouldn't expect it to fly off the shelves at that price, that's for sure. But hey, If I run a lemonade stand and charge 100,000,000 a glass I just need to sell one glass right?
Oh and yes, It *IS* ridiculously expensive... And yes I do know what goes into making it.
I'm really not sure how to get across a message that should be super-easy to get across.
Ok let's try this.
There are a bunch of fool programmers out there who just like the Uncle Bobs of the world, elect to spend precious hours of their time writing code and distributing it for free on the internet. There is positively NO DIFFERENCE between an idiot who shoots a wedding without being compensated a decent wage for it, including gear replacement costs etc. etc. etc. ... and an idiot who writes code for months and months without being compensated a decent wage for it.
So the problem here is that you are comparing the price of something that is sold by a company that:
1. Is attempting to make a living (oh how incredibly GREEDY of them!)
2. provides support for the product
3. does custom modification of the product for you
4. is selling you the industry standard keyboard
to the price of something that is being put out for free by an uncle bob on the internet.
If I could get Evan Baines to have a nervous breakdown and start shooting weddings for free and I was therefore able to provide full coverage with an album for $1500.00 at Evan Baines' quality level... would that make all the $2,500 photographers automatically "ridiculously expensive?"
The argument should be that the solution you're pushing is actually ridiculously underpriced.
Free software does not equal junk, I would refer you to the linux community.
1. I have no problem with them making a living, I state they are pricing them selves out of the market by giving 10% additional value for 10x the price.
2. The 60 dollar solution has customer support as well as the free software (see linux above)
3. Mapping a key does not take a rocket scientist.
4. I have an industry standard keyboard 104 key keyboard, cost 5 bucks.
The only "free" part was autohotkeys. Ever use it? Solid software, I don't use it, but it's there and it work. Free...
The additional 10% of function is the ability to move a slider, if that is so darn important spend a couple hours and learn the sdk and lua scripting you might find it useful.
I do know how to program, I write apps I need for myself, no I don't go into business for it, nor do I give it away (oh how selfish of me).
What I am saying is the 10% additional function you cannot get is not worth 540 bucks. Not close no how no way. Lua scripting is simple. It does not require years of training, it requires no artist vision, it requires a minor amount of effort. Download the SDK and spend a little time with it, you might be amazed how simple it is.
I think Belkin and Logitech know the value of their products, and are in no danger of going out of business for underpricing their hardware/software.
You are amazingly insistent that the 10% is so worth the 540, it makes me wonder if you are not affiliated with RPGKeys.
BTW you do know Paddy which you state you use, is an offshoot of autohotkeys?
From the sourceforge repository
"A Lightroom Workflow utility written in AutoHotKey. Improves throughput by mapping the sliders, presets, camera profiles, and any shortcut to unused keys, external Keyboards and MIDI controllers. Supports Scripting in Lightroom, relative presets, ext "
Oh, it's free for the keyboard, made by uncle bob.... Crazy Bastages not charging for software... The entire free market will collapse if people do something without asking for money...
You keep insisting it's 10% more functionality for 10x the price.
The reason it's 10x the price is because there is an Uncle Bob there who is GIVING AWAY WHAT SHOULD BE VERY EXPENSIVE SOFTWARE.
Hence my parallel... what if Evan Baines (a very talented FM photographer) were to go insane and start shooting weddings for free... I coudl pimp him out for $1,500 full coverage plus album. Since Baines is shooting for free all I have to do is make money on the album, which at $1,500 I should be able to.
Suddenly I would make all the non-excellent but somewhat talented $2,500 shooters look like they're outrageously expensive.
THAT is what you are doing when you take for granted the fact that AutoHotkey is free and ALSO the fact that whoever wrote the mapping software also made THAT free.
I am extremely familiar with AHK... before using paddy I had my own version which did pretty much everything paddy does except presets and except I had hard-coded the mappings so had to go in and change actual if statements if I wanted to reassigna a key.
In the abasence of an Uncle Bob giving away Autohotkey your average photographer woudln't be able to do waht RPG does, on their own.
In the presence of an Uncle Bob giving away Autohotkey, but the absence of someone to write the key-mapping software and to test it against new versions of Lightroom, your average photographer wouldn't be able to do what RPG does, on their own
So yeah... you can "make fun" of the price of RPG ONLY BECAUSE a couple of fools out there decided to give away their work for free.
For the last time. That Does NOT make RPG uberexepensive. It makes the free solutions uber-inexpensive.
I'd love to see you come up with what RPG came up with and see how much YOU would charge to make your busines financially viable.
P.S. And no, I'm not associated with RPG. I'm just annoyed at those of you who don't GET that there is value being provided by folks who actually charge for programming work...even in the presence of the free linux clowns.
And why should he be charging for it? Free is NOT evil. It just means if you want to sell you have to have a good product.
Actually your average photographer could just grab the sdk take a look at the samples, and code their own version pretty quick (I may be a bad judge of how long since I know how to write code), but from zero to assigning a key press shouldn't take all that long.
"I'd love to see you come up with what RPG came up with and see how much YOU would charge to make your busines financially viable."
Perhaps that is MY point. You expect because he did work that he deserves to be financially viable. I expect value for my money, and it's not there. If paddy charged 50 bucks for his product (which he can't since he took Open Source GNU software for his base) it would be worth it. If he charge 540 I would say same, not enough bang for buck.
I will close with this...
A fool and his money are soon parted. I believe I know where you stand on this.
I see it as fairly similar to MS Office vs StarOffice/OpenOffice/etc.
The free editions have gotten "good enough" for most people. Yeah, some things are a little harder but I know that I certainly haven't been able to justify MS Office over SO/OO. A lot of software tends toward free as it matures and requires less development and innovation.
Well I think it would be a good investment (that or DQ Quikeys). I don't have the time, nor the inclination to figure out how to program one of these. And I think having the help/customer service would be great.
However, I'm going to wait and see about the new DQ system that is coming out shortly and compare the two.
I spoke with Tim a little while ago and I have to say that the service and support seems great. I'm gonna try it out and see what this thing does for me. You know what, 30 days to try it and see? For me that totally works. I was on skype with him and he immediately shared a screen shot showing some things I have no clue about. Will it work for my workflow? I hope so, but if not, there's no hesitation on my end and it sounds like no hesitation on Tim's end to send it back. I feel like he really took care of me
I'm going for whatever works for me. RPG, DQ or x-keys. I'll let you know how it goes.