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Archive 2010 · Vagabond Mini Lithium

  
 
kenyee
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p.7 #1 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Paul Buff wrote:
Sorry to burst any bubbles, but my very scientifically conducted tests indicate 69.7% of the battery's capacity is emitted as flash energy in Vagabond Mini Lithium plus AB1600 (510 640WS pops per charge) , VS 44.4% efficiency for Profoto Acute B2 (160 600WS pops per charge) , VS 43.4% efficiency for Elinchrom Ranger Quadra A @400WS (150 pops per charges)


Isn't this mostly because of the different types of batteries? The miniVB page implies it in the description of the lithium battery types vs. SLA. I.e., efficiency is directly related to battery type, but not necessarily as affected by the DC->AC->HVDC conversion...

Thanks for making spare batteries at a reasonable cost



Sep 09, 2010 at 09:48 PM
adamdewilde
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p.7 #2 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Stephen W wrote:
I've used an X1600, ABR800, AB800 and Ranger Quadra at various strobist meets locally. The Quadra's compares fairly favorable to the AB800, and either myself or my assistant can shoulder it and shoot with it VAML style on a monopod lifted above a subject for 3-4 hours without a problem. I can't imagine the same being said about a monoblock.

The whole system is less than 10lbs for certain, but it's also the shooting style that differs quite a bit since you can remain mobile with the light. You lose flexibility being chained to a stand, but you gain greater
...Show more



Honestly, do you guys shoot bare bulb, and why?
When I'm outdoors I still have a 3ft Octa or a medium SB. Makes it hard to use small stands and makes it difficult for an assistant to hold over there head.

Though I'm still agreeing with you guys, if I had an Einstein Mini w/VBM I'd bring an umbrella and small light stand and it would be much easier for me to setup and take down/carry around.

Still the VBM sounds great, and nobody has thought about how you can just loop it through your belt and run a small cord up to a ABR800 so you have an on location ringlight thats really very mobile.



Sep 10, 2010 at 01:15 AM
Bryan Beasleigh
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p.7 #3 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


I am impressed! This will make life that much more enjoyable. I have a tough time getting around and this brings portability within my grasp. The stand clamp is a very nice touch.

Very nicely done Paul



Sep 10, 2010 at 04:29 AM
CreV
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p.7 #4 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Tobi. wrote:
I know this problem quite well. When travelling in europe, for many contries adapters are required.

So you're using this: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:I_plug.jpg&filetimestamp=20050618114753 plug? I hope it's lawful to use it for this kind of products in europe.

I know it might be too late now, but why didn't you just use a plug like this: http://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=13;PIC=1;WIDTH=300;HEIGHT=300;ARTID=9255 ? It's essentially the reverse of what's used on most monolights and thus normal extension cables that can be bought in any computer store could have been used. Actually I know of quite a few sine inverters that use this plug. Also most UPSs use them as
...Show more

Or maybe even use one of these, http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00UvTaCmdwyibA/Universal-Socket.jpg
but as one socket only. This solves all problems in the world. Literally.



Sep 10, 2010 at 05:56 AM
photobear
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p.7 #5 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Ok...I need this NOW! When will we be able to place an order?


Sep 10, 2010 at 07:52 AM
RDKirk
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p.7 #6 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


This solves all problems in the world. Literally.

The big problem is all the wrong things people will plug into it and then blame the manufacturer for allowing them to do it. That's actually why most plugs are designed the way they are--to limit what can be plugged into them.



Sep 10, 2010 at 08:37 AM
Seanzky
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p.7 #7 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


I think Tobi's suggestion is the best idea by far.


Sep 10, 2010 at 08:38 AM
PeterBerressem
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p.7 #8 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


I definitely agree. The socket is called GST 5 and pretty much standard in the EU.
www.kb-connector.de/uk/index.html



Sep 10, 2010 at 09:46 AM
Paul Buff
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p.7 #9 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Tobi. wrote:
I know this problem quite well. When travelling in europe, for many contries adapters are required.

So you're using this: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:I_plug.jpg&filetimestamp=20050618114753 plug? I hope it's lawful to use it for this kind of products in europe.

I know it might be too late now, but why didn't you just use a plug like this: http://www.reichelt.de/?ACTION=13;PIC=1;WIDTH=300;HEIGHT=300;ARTID=9255 ? It's essentially the reverse of what's used on most monolights and thus normal extension cables that can be bought in any computer store could have been used. Actually I know of quite a few sine inverters that use this plug. Also most UPSs use them as
...Show more

Seems people like to redesign products after they are designed. The suggested socket mentioned is not specifically 230V and would encourage people to plug 120V equipment into it and fry their equipment. Also, it doesn't fit the panel design, nor is it any more universally approved than the socket I chose. On this same subject, there are lights on the market that use the universal IEC standard power inlet plus a 120/240V user switch on the back panel. What do you think happens if you accidentally switch it to 120V and plug it into a 240V outlet?

That's why Einstein is completely auto switching (including model lamp) and can be plugged in globally without fear.

Nothing illegal about using a standard piece of equipment from one country in another. That's why they make travel adaptors. If I went down that road, I would have to design a dozen version for different countries, and some of the country's sockets are gigantic and would never fit the compact footprint of Vagabond Mini Lithium. Should I offer an Israel version and a Pakistan version and a Russian version, ad infinitum?

As one poster mentioned . . . one accessory cord set powers virtually every light in the world.



Sep 10, 2010 at 02:22 PM
Paul Buff
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p.7 #10 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


CreV wrote:
Or maybe even use one of these, http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00UvTaCmdwyibA/Universal-Socket.jpg
but as one socket only. This solves all problems in the world. Literally.

Sure . . . but it's huge and allows you to plug a 120V light into it . . . poof.



Sep 10, 2010 at 02:25 PM
Paul Buff
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p.7 #11 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


kenyee wrote:
Isn't this mostly because of the different types of batteries? The miniVB page implies it in the description of the lithium battery types vs. SLA. I.e., efficiency is directly related to battery type, but not necessarily as affected by the DC->AC->HVDC conversion...

Thanks for making spare batteries at a reasonable cost


Part of it is the battery used. But consider latest Profoto Acute Lithium achieves only 55% efficiency with direct Lithium to high voltage (from their published specs) while Vag Mini Lithium achieves 69.7% with Lithium to inverter to AB conversion (from actual testing).

I guaranty that if I do a direct Lithium to flash caps light it will exceed 80% efficiency.



Sep 10, 2010 at 02:36 PM
sboerup
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p.7 #12 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Paul, you have finally given me reason to get Einsteins. Great job on the VBM size, specs, power and weight. It'll be a HUGE hit if I might make predictions here . . .

Just reading through this thread, I could really give a crap about "efficiency % numbers" and all this mumbo jumbo . . . I don't really care what efficiency other models get. If I compare the power from Elinchrom Quadra, AcuteB and an Einstein w/VBM, the only thing I'm looking at is how many pops, not efficiency. I don't have any problem with a battery giving me 200 full power pops, I don't need 500 or anything higher than 250 to be realistic for my usage. I understand I am probably in a minority, but, I'm curious why you keep waving around all these "efficiency" stats when it's a statistic no other manufacturer has ever used.

Now, I would be highly interested in a small small hot-shoe sized manual flash.



Sep 10, 2010 at 07:14 PM
Paul Buff
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p.7 #13 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


I refer you back a couple of pages to this

"Some have suggested we should do a dedicated battery flash unit because it's "more efficient" than DC to AC to Monolight. Sorry to burst any bubbles, but my very scientifically conducted tests indicate 69.7% of the battery's capacity is emitted as flash energy in Vagabond Mini Lithium plus AB1600 (510 640WS pops per charge) , VS 44.4% efficiency for Profoto Acute B2 (160 600WS pops per charge) , VS 43.4% efficiency for Elinchrom Ranger Quadra A @400WS (150 pops per charges).

The new Acute B2 Lithium achieves 200 600WS pops per charge for an efficiency of 55.5%.

Data for Acute and Quadra calculated from published specs.

Battery capacity for the three systems are:

Ranger Quadra A = 38.4 watt hours ($200 Adorama)
Acute B2 = 60 watt hours ($272 B&H)
Acute B2 Lithium = 60 watt hours (?)
Vagabond Mini Lithium - 130 watt hours ($89.95 Direct)

Dissecting this, all battery systems have a lifespan broadly between 200 and 2000 charge/recharge cycles before their capacity is diminished or depleted. We've all seen that, say in a cordless power drill that won't recharge after a year or two of use. Most if us have picked up our power drill for a job, only to find the battery needs to be recharged or replaced.

So even if you only shoot 50 shots or so in a session, you typically want to be able to pick up your camera and, or in this case, your portable power, and use it for another shoot without cussing because your battery is dead and you have to stop and recharge it. An you certainly don't want a 5lb battery in your camera in order to reduce the times you have to stop and recharge, or put in a spare charged battery. And when your camera, or laptop battery has ceased to be rechargeable, we all groan at the cost of of replacing the battery.

What everybody wants is maximum battery capacity and life between charges, minimum battery weight and lowest replacement cost an inconvenience. Then, of course, there's the ever-present situation with SLA batteries where if you drain them and don't immediately recharge them they are toast. (our biggest Vagabond1/2 complaint).

So to answer the question of efficiency, the more efficient a system is, the more freedom you have from all of these issues. What if you have a 300 horsepower car with such poor efficiency that only 100 horsepower gets delivered to the wheels, yet you still have to buy gas for a 300HP car? You get a 10MPG ride that runs like a Yugo!

Without belaboring the issue, I have done tremendous R&D on achieving what was discussed . . . maximum capacity, minimum waste of that capacity (efficiency) maximum number of times the battery can be used without recharging or replacing, and minimum cost when replacements is necessary.

Before the question comes up that Paul C. Buff's batteries are way cheaper than others , therefore they must be inferior . . . the fact is all batteries come from the same typically-Asian manufacturers and are of the same general quality. The price difference is in our direct marketing, high volume, willingness to sell at lower gross profit margin (to maximize sales quantity) and judicious sourcing of vendors to accomplish highest quality and reliability and safety. I have dealt with a dozen battery manufacturers in order to accomplish thus, and have received quotes and samples over a three to one cost range and settled on the vendor that gave me the best of everything,

Lastly, there was a flap a couple of years back about exploding or overheating Lithium batteries - Apple and others got caught up in this. Our battery vendor is a very substantial company with great engineering capabilities that supplies Lithiums to many Fortune 500 companies and has included the very latest chemistry and safety circuitry within the battery pack itself. They are completely protected against over charging, over discharging, short circuits, reverse connections and excess temperature. Then they are encased in a custom molded rigid flame retardant housing with no exposed wires and a direct, non-reversable instant plug-in to the Vagabond Mini Lithium body.



Sep 10, 2010 at 09:05 PM
RustyBug
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p.7 #14 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


I do TCO (Total Cost of Ownership), RAM (Reliability, Availability, Maintainability) analysis and system compatibility for government & manufacturing operations and maintenance (international & domestic) ... figuring out how to optimize bang for your buck (7, 8 or 9 figures) ... who cares, I know.

I see Paul's considerations & approach similar in concept (perfect, maybe not) ... I'm obviously not able to fully explain in the scope of TCO & RAM in this forum, but IMO, he's 'got a clue' ... he really can't fully defend himself without teaching everyone Masters level engineering curriculum first, which is obviously not going to happen in this forum.

The fact that a CEO is as open and direct (sometimes more direct than people like) as he is, really is something incredibly rare in this day and age. I realize that Paul may reciprocally benefit by providing this open line of dialogue (some will dissent), but really, where else are you going to get to 'chat' with a CEO on a daily basis ... and one that is so accomodating to the barrage of 'pot shots' that come his way.

I'm certain it would be far easier for him to just abandon this forum. To that end, I'd simply ask that before 'poking on Paul' ... at least consider that he might know one or two things ... and rightly, worthy of him being enthused about what he's done and/or doing ... how many of us has done as much for the craft we enjoy.




Sep 10, 2010 at 09:55 PM
Neuffy
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p.7 #15 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Sounds very impressive. Thanks for all the work you've done - you make my life both better and easier. Looks like they'll drop my "standard" (meaning one backup for anything I need to use) location kit from 80 lbs to 47 lbs. That's awesome.

Where I see efficiency as mattering is for these two things:
1. Higher efficiency means less weight for me to carry to get a given number of pops
2. Higher efficiency means cheaper replacement batteries (relative to pops)



Sep 10, 2010 at 10:04 PM
pcunite
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p.7 #16 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


RustyBug wrote:
The fact that a CEO is as open and direct (sometimes more direct than people like) as he is, really is something incredibly rare in this day and age. I realize that Paul may reciprocally benefit by providing this open line of dialogue (some will dissent), but really, where else are you going to get to 'chat' with a CEO on a daily basis ... and one that is so accomodating to the barrage of 'pot shots' that come his way.


Indeed I hope Paul knows how to pase himself with the attacks as well, the silent majority of us are grateful for his communication.



Sep 10, 2010 at 10:27 PM
takurpic
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p.7 #17 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Sign me up! My assistant cannot wait to shed 27+ pounds from my current rig!


Sep 10, 2010 at 11:06 PM
bobk
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p.7 #18 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


>> I guaranty that if I do a direct Lithium to flash caps light it will exceed 80% efficiency.

Ready when you are.

A nice small 150-300ws unit, with Einstein smarts. Lots of room to undercut the competition. You wouldn't be able to make 'em fast enough. Hmm, maybe a poor choice of words.



Sep 10, 2010 at 11:18 PM
brett maxwell
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p.7 #19 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


Robb Mann wrote:
Any chance of putting a 4-pack of USB ports on that thing to power iPhones/ipads, etc? That would make the MVB a near-essential item to have on a shoot.


It's a small thing, but I'm very happy to see in the renderings that it got a USB charging port



Sep 11, 2010 at 02:58 AM
Csae
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p.7 #20 · Vagabond Mini Lithium


RustyBug wrote:
The fact that a CEO is as open and direct (sometimes more direct than people like) as he is, really is something incredibly rare in this day and age. I realize that Paul may reciprocally benefit by providing this open line of dialogue (some will dissent), but really, where else are you going to get to 'chat' with a CEO on a daily basis ... and one that is so accomodating to the barrage of 'pot shots' that come his way.

I'm certain it would be far easier for him to just abandon this forum. To that end, I'd simply
...Show more

Its not what he knows, or what he does. Its how he presents himself.

I think alot of people on this forum have alot of respect for what hes accomplishing.

Its about how he acts, how he communicates to others, this is a very civilized forum for the most part, and the pot shots are called, even begged for most of the time.

I've admin'd and moderated a number of forums over the years and i'm always very suprised at how well the FM community handles itself.

The "arguments" and "flame wars" are nothing compared to other places, this is a very professional place and if you think hes getting fire here, i could only imagine what would happen elsewhere.

That being said, let me hop back on topic, and say that the MiniVag is very interesting and would definitely hold its appeal for myself.

With the canadian winter heading my way, i probably won't shoot outside of my studio much, so i hope these will be ready and shipping by spring with whatever improvements will be required.

I guess that if these are working with the Einsteins, they will be compatible with all strobes ? (I'm refering to how some inverters, Vag1, won't work with D-Lites, or BXRis)



Sep 11, 2010 at 03:52 AM
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