Archive 2010 · Vagabond Mini Lithium
p.3 #1Vagabond Mini Lithium
Sooooo. What's the word on how this new Vagabond Mini Lithium will be received by TSA and airline travel??
I found resources stating that "larger lithium batteries" over 25 g "Equivalent Lithium Content" or ELC are prohibited.... Um, ok. Plain english or bottom line for air travel?
I found resources stating that "larger lithium batteries" over 25 g "Equivalent Lithium Content" or ELC are prohibited.... Um, ok. Plain english or bottom line for air travel?
Sep 04, 2010 at 09:06 PM
p.3 #2Vagabond Mini Lithium
We'll have to sort this out. TSA keeps changing rules and then they don't follow their own rules anyhow. If a laptop is allowed, Vagabond Mini Should be. Same basic battery chemistry. Mini batteries are fully enclosed ,cells don't show, no wires . . . pretty parallel to laptop.
Sep 04, 2010 at 09:21 PM
p.3 #3Vagabond Mini Lithium
kenyee wrote:
Thanks for the hard numbers Paul.
Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfect
Mini includes a removable and substantial stand clamp and shoulder strap. It can clamp to all standard size stand tubing sizes - 5/8" to 1 1/4". Also has 1/4-20 socket for mounting to most any accessory mounting mechanism.
Thanks for the hard numbers Paul.
Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfect
Mini includes a removable and substantial stand clamp and shoulder strap. It can clamp to all standard size stand tubing sizes - 5/8" to 1 1/4". Also has 1/4-20 socket for mounting to most any accessory mounting mechanism.
Sep 04, 2010 at 09:25 PM
p.3 #4Vagabond Mini Lithium
Re: TSA and lithium batteries.... it's actually the DOT that sets the rules from what I understand:
http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html
http://safetravel.dot.gov/quick_chart.html
You are allowed one larger lithium ion battery installed in a device, plus up to 2 spare larger lithium ion batteries. These are in addition to any smaller lithium ion batteries. For smaller lithium ion batteries, just follow the Basic rules.
Lithium ion batteries rated over 300 watt-hours (25 g ELC) are forbidden.
"Larger" lithium ion batteries are rated between 100 and 300 watt-hours (8-25 g equivalent lithium content, or ELC).
Since the Mini is 130 Wh, it will fall under the 'larger' battery classification, you can travel with it. Since it will be packed in a container with an inverter, I would expect that to be considered 'installed in a device' and can be packed in checked baggage, but there is still the problem of only being allowed one 'device' and two 'spares.'
In this respect at least, the SLA battery in a system such as the Quadra Ranger doesn't seem to bump into these issues. I traveled with four of the SLAs in a Pelican case as checked baggage and didn't have any problems (the case was inspected several times). This might be a reason Elinchrom decided to stick with old tech, but only a guess.
Edited on Sep 04, 2010 at 11:52 PM · View previous versions
http://safetravel.dot.gov/larger_batt.html
http://safetravel.dot.gov/quick_chart.html
You are allowed one larger lithium ion battery installed in a device, plus up to 2 spare larger lithium ion batteries. These are in addition to any smaller lithium ion batteries. For smaller lithium ion batteries, just follow the Basic rules.
Lithium ion batteries rated over 300 watt-hours (25 g ELC) are forbidden.
"Larger" lithium ion batteries are rated between 100 and 300 watt-hours (8-25 g equivalent lithium content, or ELC).
Since the Mini is 130 Wh, it will fall under the 'larger' battery classification, you can travel with it. Since it will be packed in a container with an inverter, I would expect that to be considered 'installed in a device' and can be packed in checked baggage, but there is still the problem of only being allowed one 'device' and two 'spares.'
In this respect at least, the SLA battery in a system such as the Quadra Ranger doesn't seem to bump into these issues. I traveled with four of the SLAs in a Pelican case as checked baggage and didn't have any problems (the case was inspected several times). This might be a reason Elinchrom decided to stick with old tech, but only a guess.
Edited on Sep 04, 2010 at 11:52 PM · View previous versions
Sep 04, 2010 at 11:29 PM
p.3 #5Vagabond Mini Lithium
^ Paul, the Quadras and the Ranger, are very commonly refered to, but as completely different units.
The quadras are the 400ws, the Rangers are the 1100ws, both battery operated, priced a bit differently.
This is just to avoid confusion if you shorten the Quadras to Ranger, everyone who follows Eli, would expect you to be talking about the 1100, regardless of context.
BH names the quadras "Ranger Quadra", so i can see where you take the shortening from, i'm just giving you a heads up from someone who follows Eli light discussions alot. I had to re-read your post a few times to confirm, hopefully its just me but you might want to be stay clear.
Personally, i think Eli made some confusing naming choices but oh well.
I am glad to hear about the mounting accessories, as for those mentioning options to the Quadras, there are quite a few Chinese offers, I'm sure at least some of them would be decent, or would end up being decent after a few more revisions ^ ^
Personally, i would love a Quadra system especially now that theres a ringflash involved, but AC monos are simply more adaptable/cheaper at the moment.
Also, the whole thing about on-location "weight" is somewhat empty to me because you need to sandbag everything anyways, so even if your flash is super light, you'll need to compensate with larger bags.... Clamping the Vagabond has always been a great solution to this.
The quadras are the 400ws, the Rangers are the 1100ws, both battery operated, priced a bit differently.
This is just to avoid confusion if you shorten the Quadras to Ranger, everyone who follows Eli, would expect you to be talking about the 1100, regardless of context.
BH names the quadras "Ranger Quadra", so i can see where you take the shortening from, i'm just giving you a heads up from someone who follows Eli light discussions alot. I had to re-read your post a few times to confirm, hopefully its just me but you might want to be stay clear.
Personally, i think Eli made some confusing naming choices but oh well.
I am glad to hear about the mounting accessories, as for those mentioning options to the Quadras, there are quite a few Chinese offers, I'm sure at least some of them would be decent, or would end up being decent after a few more revisions ^ ^
Personally, i would love a Quadra system especially now that theres a ringflash involved, but AC monos are simply more adaptable/cheaper at the moment.
Also, the whole thing about on-location "weight" is somewhat empty to me because you need to sandbag everything anyways, so even if your flash is super light, you'll need to compensate with larger bags.... Clamping the Vagabond has always been a great solution to this.
Sep 04, 2010 at 11:48 PM
p.3 #6Vagabond Mini Lithium
I think it's pretty clear, based on the specs Paul quoted, that he's referring to the Quadra, and those familiar with the differences between the Quadra and 'regular' Ranger would recognize this. FWIW, on Elinchrom's own site they refer to the Quadra as Ranger Quadra.
Sep 05, 2010 at 12:02 AM
p.3 #7Vagabond Mini Lithium
Since the OP referred to "Ounces worth of flash head" and the Ranger heads is 4.8lbs (19OZ heavier than an entire AB1600) I think it logical to assume he was referring to this http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/632659-REG/Elinchrom_EL_10293_1_Ranger_Quadra_Head_A.html#features
Also, the is is huge head weight discrepancy between B&H head weight spec and Elinchrom's.
Also, the is is huge head weight discrepancy between B&H head weight spec and Elinchrom's.
Sep 05, 2010 at 12:26 AM
p.3 #8Vagabond Mini Lithium
Paul Buff wrote:
...Also, the is is huge head weight discrepancy between B&H head weight spec and Elinchrom's.
B&H lists the A head as weighing 8.8 ounces (~249.5 grams).
Elinchrom lists the A head as weighing 281 grams (~9.9 ounces).
I guess 1 ounce is "huge" to some people.
...Also, the is is huge head weight discrepancy between B&H head weight spec and Elinchrom's.
B&H lists the A head as weighing 8.8 ounces (~249.5 grams).
Elinchrom lists the A head as weighing 281 grams (~9.9 ounces).
I guess 1 ounce is "huge" to some people.
Sep 05, 2010 at 03:51 AM
p.3 #9Vagabond Mini Lithium
You know, i'd love to pay for 8 ounces of gold and end up with 9
Sep 05, 2010 at 04:04 AM
p.3 #10Vagabond Mini Lithium
Csae wrote:
You know, i'd love to pay for 8 ounces of gold and end up with 9
Now that would be huge!
You know, i'd love to pay for 8 ounces of gold and end up with 9
Now that would be huge!
Sep 05, 2010 at 04:09 AM
p.3 #11Vagabond Mini Lithium
(terminology note: Elinchrom considers their line of hybrid battery/pack systems to be called "Rangers". If you say just 'Ranger" you are referring to the older, 1100ws system. Quadra, or "Ranger Quadra" is the smaller, 400ws system. It's the Swiss way of providing clarity)
The weights on the Quadra can be confusing. Elinchcom lists component weight separately, and even the cable is a significant contribution to the total heft. (Heck, I think it even weighs more when filled with electricity.)
From the Elinchrom site:
(Ranger Quadra)
Ulta portable:
Pack: 1.40 Kgs
Battery: 1.60 Kgs
Lamphead: 0.33 Kgs
So, about 7.3lbs for a quadra pack/battery with one head, call it 8lbs when you add in the standard 8' cable & skyport trigger.
2nd head & 8' cable would add a bit over 1lb more.
One of the big advantages I have in shooting the Quadra on-location is it allows me to go easy on my lightstands. The weight of the Quadra pack/battery is normally enough to balance out my stand. There is a big difference between putting a 3.5lbs monolight on top of an 8' stand vs a 0.7lbs pack-head. Saving a pound in flash gear weight doesn't help me if it means I need to lug 5-10lbs of sandbags with me to counter-balance it.
The weights on the Quadra can be confusing. Elinchcom lists component weight separately, and even the cable is a significant contribution to the total heft. (Heck, I think it even weighs more when filled with electricity.)
From the Elinchrom site:
(Ranger Quadra)
Ulta portable:
Pack: 1.40 Kgs
Battery: 1.60 Kgs
Lamphead: 0.33 Kgs
So, about 7.3lbs for a quadra pack/battery with one head, call it 8lbs when you add in the standard 8' cable & skyport trigger.
2nd head & 8' cable would add a bit over 1lb more.
One of the big advantages I have in shooting the Quadra on-location is it allows me to go easy on my lightstands. The weight of the Quadra pack/battery is normally enough to balance out my stand. There is a big difference between putting a 3.5lbs monolight on top of an 8' stand vs a 0.7lbs pack-head. Saving a pound in flash gear weight doesn't help me if it means I need to lug 5-10lbs of sandbags with me to counter-balance it.
Sep 05, 2010 at 06:14 AM
p.3 #12Vagabond Mini Lithium
Robb Mann wrote:
Saving a pound in flash gear weight doesn't help me if it means I need to lug 5-10lbs of sandbags with me to counter-balance it.
For a single lightstand, I usually bungee my camera backpack to it for additional ballast when using a speedlight+umbrella/softbox or it'll blow over. Or you can bring an empty bag and fill it w/ water or rocks to make it heavier. Nice to see the mini-VB has straps to tie it to the stand, but it probably won't be heavy enough unless you use no modifiers (I'd be surprised if the quadra doesn't blow over w/ any modifiers either). Good point about pack/head systems though...
Saving a pound in flash gear weight doesn't help me if it means I need to lug 5-10lbs of sandbags with me to counter-balance it.
For a single lightstand, I usually bungee my camera backpack to it for additional ballast when using a speedlight+umbrella/softbox or it'll blow over. Or you can bring an empty bag and fill it w/ water or rocks to make it heavier. Nice to see the mini-VB has straps to tie it to the stand, but it probably won't be heavy enough unless you use no modifiers (I'd be surprised if the quadra doesn't blow over w/ any modifiers either). Good point about pack/head systems though...
Sep 05, 2010 at 06:28 AM
p.3 #13Vagabond Mini Lithium
I've shot with a 65" silver PLM on location with a quadra. It was on an 7.75' manfroto stacker stand, fully extended. The only thing holding the stand down was the Quadra pack/head. I shot for two hours with a light breeze, and the stand never moved.
I give credit to two things - 1) the PLM was just a few inches from the center of the lightstand - very little unbalanced weight. 2) for a compact lightstand, the stacker has a massive 38" legbase. - also, the way the stacker's legs are built I get a little 'shelf' where I can stuff the quadra & it counter-balances any modifier I might put on it.
It also helped that the breeze was coming into the shoot so that it was hiting the back of the PLM.
I give credit to two things - 1) the PLM was just a few inches from the center of the lightstand - very little unbalanced weight. 2) for a compact lightstand, the stacker has a massive 38" legbase. - also, the way the stacker's legs are built I get a little 'shelf' where I can stuff the quadra & it counter-balances any modifier I might put on it.
It also helped that the breeze was coming into the shoot so that it was hiting the back of the PLM.
Sep 05, 2010 at 06:56 AM
p.3 #14Vagabond Mini Lithium
Paul Buff wrote:
We'll have to sort this out. TSA keeps changing rules and then they don't follow their own rules anyhow. If a laptop is allowed, Vagabond Mini Should be. Same basic battery chemistry. Mini batteries are fully enclosed ,cells don't show, no wires . . . pretty parallel to laptop.
Thanks, Paul. So, duct tape Vagabound Mini Lithium to Laptop, and we're good to go!
It looks like from Ron's post (above), it should not be a problem for airline travel.
ken
Edited on Sep 05, 2010 at 10:13 AM · View previous versions
We'll have to sort this out. TSA keeps changing rules and then they don't follow their own rules anyhow. If a laptop is allowed, Vagabond Mini Should be. Same basic battery chemistry. Mini batteries are fully enclosed ,cells don't show, no wires . . . pretty parallel to laptop.
Thanks, Paul. So, duct tape Vagabound Mini Lithium to Laptop, and we're good to go!
It looks like from Ron's post (above), it should not be a problem for airline travel.
ken
Edited on Sep 05, 2010 at 10:13 AM · View previous versions
Sep 05, 2010 at 07:33 AM
p.3 #15Vagabond Mini Lithium
Day 1 purchase for me, without question. Probably 2.
Sep 05, 2010 at 07:38 AM
p.3 #16Vagabond Mini Lithium
Paul Buff wrote:
20something seconds for Zeus 2500 = c.100w/s per second = around 6 seconds for an Einstein/AB1600.Does it work that way?
I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.There are some non linear physics involved in operating AC powered flash units from current limited pure sine inverters. Here's how it breaks down:
The faster the AC power line recycle speed of a flash unit, the slower the recycle speed from an inverter. This is because units such as Zeus that have very fast WS/Second recycle on AC lines drop the inverter to much lower voltages than units with slower WS/Second AC cycle rates.
Vagabond Mini Lithium recycles an AB1600 (640WS) to its full 640WS in just under 3 seconds. The nice thing is that the cycle rate remains constant...Show more →
Yeah that's what I thought, I just didn't know how to write it to the other poster who did the math..
adamdewilde wrote
Chris Beaumont wrote
Csae wrote
Would you be comfortable giving a recycle time for a full Einstein pop ?I'm thinking that 6 seconds to full seems a bit long no?
though usually I'm shooting at around 100ws when I'm doing on location in a structure with no power, an around 400-600 when facing the setting sun. So 6 seconds isn't horrid... And I always have the VB if needed.
The faster the AC power line recycle speed of a flash unit, the slower the recycle speed from an inverter. This is because units such as Zeus that have very fast WS/Second recycle on AC lines drop the inverter to much lower voltages than units with slower WS/Second AC cycle rates.
Vagabond Mini Lithium recycles an AB1600 (640WS) to its full 640WS in just under 3 seconds. The nice thing is that the cycle rate remains constant...Show more →
Yeah that's what I thought, I just didn't know how to write it to the other poster who did the math..
Sep 05, 2010 at 07:55 AM
p.3 #17Vagabond Mini Lithium
Paul Buff wrote:
Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfectMini includes a removable and substantial stand clamp and shoulder strap. It can clamp to all standard size stand tubing sizes - 5/8" to 1 1/4". Also has 1/4-20 socket for mounting to most any accessory mounting mechanism.
The clamp thing sounds perfect. So I have one clamped to every stand, then have a little 300ws Einstein - small little thing, like half the size they are now
and I'm set. 3 light cordless setup here I come!
Ok so for now you don't have a 300ws mini-Einstein, but I know you'll think of something.
kenyee wrote
Thanks for the hard numbers Paul.Looking forward to adding this to my VB2. The VB2's weight is still useful for lightstand ballast. There are times (beach shoots, etc.) when you don't need ballast and the mini-VB will be perfect
The clamp thing sounds perfect. So I have one clamped to every stand, then have a little 300ws Einstein - small little thing, like half the size they are now
and I'm set. 3 light cordless setup here I come!Ok so for now you don't have a 300ws mini-Einstein, but I know you'll think of something.
Sep 05, 2010 at 07:57 AM
p.3 #18Vagabond Mini Lithium
BrianO wrote:
B&H lists the A head as weighing 8.8 ounces (~249.5 grams).
Elinchrom lists the A head as weighing 281 grams (~9.9 ounces).
I guess 1 ounce is "huge" to some people.
I weighed a Quadra A head with standard reflector: 346 g.
Standard 2.5 m cable: ~350 g (don't remember the exact figure, but it was close to the head and reflector weight)
Combined it is close to the weight Paul used for the head in his calculations.
Paul Buff wrote
...Also, the is is huge head weight discrepancy between B&H head weight spec and Elinchrom's.Elinchrom lists the A head as weighing 281 grams (~9.9 ounces).
I guess 1 ounce is "huge" to some people.
I weighed a Quadra A head with standard reflector: 346 g.
Standard 2.5 m cable: ~350 g (don't remember the exact figure, but it was close to the head and reflector weight)
Combined it is close to the weight Paul used for the head in his calculations.
Sep 05, 2010 at 11:27 AM
p.3 #19Vagabond Mini Lithium
kdphotography wrote:
Thanks, Paul. So, duct tape Vagabound Mini Lithium to Laptop, and we're good to go!
It looks like from Ron's post (above), it should not be a problem for airline travel.
ken
Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem to bring one with you... the question will be traveling with multiple units and how consistent TSA will be in enforcing DOT regulations.
You could probably split some of it between checked and carry-on, since a single large lithium ion battery installed in a device (the Mini) can be in checked baggage.
Paul Buff wrote
We'll have to sort this out. TSA keeps changing rules and then they don't follow their own rules anyhow. If a laptop is allowed, Vagabond Mini Should be. Same basic battery chemistry. Mini batteries are fully enclosed ,cells don't show, no wires . . . pretty parallel to laptop. It looks like from Ron's post (above), it should not be a problem for airline travel.
ken
Yeah, it shouldn't be a problem to bring one with you... the question will be traveling with multiple units and how consistent TSA will be in enforcing DOT regulations.
You could probably split some of it between checked and carry-on, since a single large lithium ion battery installed in a device (the Mini) can be in checked baggage.
Sep 05, 2010 at 11:29 AM
p.3 #20Vagabond Mini Lithium
The mini-einstein is actually a pretty clever idea. It would definitely have a market as well, however it might steal too much of the show from the einstein via price sensitivity.
3 seconds recycle time is pretty decent.
I'd be interested in picking up 1-2 as well.
3 seconds recycle time is pretty decent.
I'd be interested in picking up 1-2 as well.
Sep 05, 2010 at 11:35 AM