Always interesting to see more 75 cron shots - I am considering it as my second lens, to compliment the 28 cron and M8 I am in the midst of purchasing. The first photo pops off the screen, the rest are quite flat to me, although I love the colors in #3.
Is the 75 cron too surgical and neutral at anything other than relatively close distances? I have looked at the 75 Lux too, which is quite a strong performer stopped down and has wonderful soft character wide open. So hard to decide! I feel 90 is too long on the M8 so haven't looked at the 90 cron.
AshNZ wrote:
Always interesting to see more 75 cron shots - I am considering it as my second lens, to compliment the 28 cron and M8 I am in the midst of purchasing. The first photo pops off the screen, the rest are quite flat to me, although I love the colors in #3.
Is the 75 cron too surgical and neutral at anything other than relatively close distances? I have looked at the 75 Lux too, which is quite a strong performer stopped down and has wonderful soft character wide open. So hard to decide! I feel 90 is too long on the M8 so haven't looked at the 90 cron....Show more →
the 75 APO is an AWESOME lens.
Advantages:
- It's compact
- IQ is amazing
- It has the highest magnification of any leica lens except for the macro
- It easy to focus, unlike the 90
The optical designs are strongly related, but the 50 has a bunch more character, and although for some it doesn't make so much difference, for others it makes all the difference. A question of personal taste.
carstenw wrote:
The optical designs are strongly related, but the 50 has a bunch more character, and although for some it doesn't make so much difference, for others it makes all the difference. A question of personal taste.
I prefer the Summilux 75 over the Summicron 75 as far as I can tell from the photos I've seen.
seekuh wrote:
The rendering of the Summicron 75 is supposed to be similar to that of the Summilux 50 I was told.
Their designs are related but their rendering is very different, as is their optical performance. Let me put it bluntly: the 50 Lux ASPH is the best lens I've ever used while the 75 Cron ASPH is the worst high end lens I've ever used.
There are a bunch of places in this thread where I've made the case for that Leica should be embarrassed to release such a lens, so I don't think there's any need to list them all again. It's substandard both in terms of optical performance (a Canon zoom does apochromatic correction better than the so-called APO...) and in character (it has none).
Having said that, these things are relative. There are occasions where the 75 Cron surprises one in a positive way. Stopped down at medium distances it is quite decent. And with a bit of post processing you can salvage images from its catastrophic drop in contrast when you get near MFD. The lack of character can be of benefit sometimes and on occasion one can make use of its neutral bokeh. The rendering in the first image in the set above was such a positive surprise - you rarely get anything like that kind of pop from it.
It's because these occasional positive things that I have not sold it. I'm trying to still convince myself of that it's a question of finding the right way of using it. Well, after a year and over 3,000 images shot with it, I can safely say that I have not found a good way. Nor have I seen any systematically good* images from anyone else using the lens.
Edit: I should add that to counter LL:s post that I find the 90 Cron much easier to focus accurately - because it has a stiffer focusing ring. The 75 Cron is IMO probably the most difficult of the lot.
Interesting feedback, didn't realize the 75 was such a controversial lens
Ashok, oh come on, you've seen at least a dozen of my anti 75 Cron rants. I didn't have any choice in the matter after your "75 APO is an AWESOME lens" provocation I was actually going to post something nice about it in response to Ash's post, but I can do that now after your universal proclamation
Luka - I hold a high regard for your opinions - so i'm curious - do you think it could be a sample variation of your 75?
i.e. have you tried any other copies?
Three copies actually And one of them, my current one has been to Leica three times. It's not one of those things that you can explain with sample variation (such as the focus being off) - it's the basic optical formula of the lens and the materials used that give it its rendering style.
denoir wrote:
Three copies actually And one of them, my current one has been to Leica three times. It's not one of those things that you can explain with sample variation (such as the focus being off) - it's the basic optical formula of the lens and the materials used that give it its rendering style.
Got it - Fair enough then
I don't actually have my 75 any more - but i kinda regretted selling it.
I've actually used mine quite a lot, and for the most part been unhappy with the results. However, on occasion it does deliver something really interesting, and I refuse to give up the search for a pattern. I've gotten to know it well enough to avoid the types of shots that produce a rendering that is outright offensive to me. I have however not learned how to systematically get interesting results. For the most part it's accidental.
The first shot that I posted:
is such an example. The rendering is just gorgeous (not all that different from what I'd expect from the 50 Lux), but it's nothing that I can reproduce. Next time with a different background and geometry it will just look like a flat cutout on a gaussian blurred background..
or look at the last shot, at the tiles specifically:
Look at the high micro contrast - I don't think the 90 Cron AA could have done that better. It's excellent rendering. But again, that performance is inconsistent. Next time I'll get something flat and boring without knowing why. The 90 Cron AA on the other hand delivers every time.
So the bottom line is that the 75 Cron works beautifully some times, but for the most part not and I'm still trying to figure out the parameters that determine it.
denoir wrote:
[Then why not get the pre-FLE 35 Lux ASPH?
For several reasons:
#1: The used prices are ridiculous. The only one I've seen in Sweden was 29000 SEK, and that one was from 2002 and uncoded. Would Leica adjust it for me if focus was off? Not for free, I'm sure.
#2: Focus shift. Even your own example of this, from a copy that is sort of "neutral", shows a bit too much shift. I mean, if DOF begins where you focus at f/4 and gets a lot sharper further away, it'll of course give the impression of backfocus, albeit not terribly much.
#3: The examples I've seen doesn't tell me that the newer one has the different bokeh that everybody seems to agree about. I've seen them render very similarly at occasion; the V1 harsh as hell as well as the V2 smooth as butter, at sort of the same distance.
I don't like waiting games. If I would have had the money last week, I'd just have bought an M9 and the 50/1.4 (if I could have found one). But now I've "cooled off" and the interest is like 1% of what it was then. I could probably just live with the M8 and 28/2 for a while. The only thing it doesn't do well is low light and long exposures, of which I hate both. I've also considered letting the ZF lenses stay on the shelf for the future. Selling the D700 was probably a good idea since the rubber was starting to peal off and an eventual new body on the market will make the prices drop.
Makten wrote:
#1: The used prices are ridiculous. The only one I've seen in Sweden was 29000 SEK, and that one was from 2002 and uncoded. Would Leica adjust it for me if focus was off? Not for free, I'm sure.
Hmm, yes that is a bit much, but still a lot less than 39000 SEK which a new one will cost you. And no, Leica would not adjust it as they think the variation in focus shift is within specifications.
However if you want to be depressed further, there are plenty of people getting serious focus shift with the new 35 Lux and Leica giving them the "within tolerances" response..
The thing is that unless you want to suffer a nervous breakdown you have to understand that getting a working Leica kit is a process. It's not like with Canonikon that you go to the store and come back with a camera and lenses that work. It can happen in the Leica world, but you should not count on it.
#2: Focus shift. Even your own example of this, from a copy that is sort of "neutral", shows a bit too much shift. I mean, if DOF begins where you focus at f/4 and gets a lot sharper further away, it'll of course give the impression of backfocus, albeit not terribly much.
You mean f/2.8. I don't think I've posted an f/4 focus shift test shot. At f/4 everything should be well within DOF. At f/1.4 it's dead on, at f/2 it is slightly shifted, at f/2.8 the shift is at maximum while at f/4 and beyond DOF takes over. This is what it looks like in the worst case scenario (f/2.8, MFD):
(crop)
#3: The examples I've seen doesn't tell me that the newer one has the different bokeh that everybody seems to agree about. I've seen them render very similarly at occasion; the V1 harsh as hell as well as the V2 smooth as butter, at sort of the same distance.
I've had both simultaneously, I'm sure I can find some examples if you are interested. There are also some good side by side comparisons at the Leica forums and at GetDPI IIRC. They're quite different and I have not heard anyone who has used them both contradict that.
denoir wrote:
The thing is that unless you want to suffer a nervous breakdown you have to understand that getting a working Leica kit is a process.
It depends. I bought the M8 the day after I even thought of getting one, and five days later I bought the 28/2, and they seem to work as they should. I can't believe that all M9 users have to send all of their stuff to Germany. Very few people would accept that, including me.
This is what it looks like in the worst case scenario (f/2.8, MFD):
That's not acceptable for such an extremely expensive lens, in my opinion. I don't even think the Voigtländer 35/1.4 is worse than that. And, I can't see how long DOF is extending, but I suppose that since the 30 mm mark is sharpest, 60-100 mm is probably within DOF too, which means that focus is not where you wanted it to be. Focus on a persons eye and the other eye will be sharper.
Makten wrote:
It depends. I bought the M8 the day after I even thought of getting one, and five days later I bought the 28/2, and they seem to work as they should.
Except for your 28 Cron that doesn't work as it should at/near infinity. That seems like a rather major issue to me.
I can't believe that all M9 users have to send all of their stuff to Germany. Very few people would accept that, including me.
Yes, so few people would accept it that Leica is making record sales and you have to wait month to get the gear. I'm not saying that it's good - it's not - but Leica is in such demand right now that they can get away with it and do. You'll have to live with it just like the rest of us.
That's not acceptable for such an extremely expensive lens, in my opinion. I don't even think the Voigtländer 35/1.4 is worse than that. And, I can't see how long DOF is extending, but I suppose that since the 30 mm mark is sharpest, 60-100 mm is probably within DOF too, which means that focus is not where you wanted it to be. Focus on a persons eye and the other eye will be sharper.
You're forgetting that this was shot at 45 degrees down angle. 50mm on the far end is about as blurred as 14mm on the near end. That result is very acceptable for any lens and much tighter than the standards for the new FLE, or any other lens for that matter. Believe me, I'm a 35mm addict I've had more than ten or so fast 35mm primes (still have four) and these are very acceptable results. A comparison to the CV 35/1.4 would be absurd where the focus is well outside DOF when you stop it down - it's not a very good lens as 35's go.
Anyway, the problem with the pre-FLE is that there is a large sample variation so you have to either be lucky (like I was) or keep searching until you find one where the shift isn't problematic.
Having said that, it seems like you've made up your mind that you want the FLE regardless of anything. It's a great lens, you can't go wrong with it. Chances are better that you'll get a copy where focus shift isn't problematic and it is a bit sharper wide open. You are extremely unlikely to be disappointed
denoir wrote:
Except for your 28 Cron that doesn't work as it should at/near infinity. That seems like a rather major issue to me.
I've only said that I haven't got super sharp results from it. It doesn't have to be anything wrong with the lens since it seems to focus correctly at all distances and is almost equally sharp from middle to corner at f/2. I'd definitely not say there's any "issue" compared to any other lens I've had. The ZF 35/2 wasn't dead sharp at infinity either, no matter how much I stopped it down. But it was good enough.
Having said that, it seems like you've made up your mind that you want the FLE regardless of anything.
I don't know. I'll wait until I've got the cash for an M9 and try it with the 28. If it works, I'll probably buy it. Then I can start looking for lenses. The problem will be that I want to try them before buying. Anyway, this will take time and will use the M8 in the meantime. Maybe I have changed my mind when I got the money.
Hi guys, great stuff lately and some new contributors too, which is great! Martin, nice to see you here, looking forward to seeing what you do with the M8.
I've been dabbling with the NEX 5N lately and generally like it, but still find the M more intuitive and faster to use. As I posted in the NEX thread, I went out yesterday with both cameras, starting off with the NEX and when I got to this building in the photos below, also pulled out the M9, and within about 5 minutes was only shooting with it. The light was changing quite rapidly as the sun set and with the NEX I just felt I was fiddling around with it too much between shots... Maybe I need to get more used to using it, but at the moment I feel like I'm looking at it, rather than looking through it at the scene in front of me. This isn't a problem with the M...
ZM35C:
ZM21:
Undecided which of the two below I like better... both ZM35C:
Luka, nice to see some images from you. That first one from the 75 Cron really does feel 3D!
Also like the columns one very much... columns
Charles - great work with the portraits from Thailand and the many from the beach. Looks as though you started a mini 24 Lux buying spree.
I was actually going to post something nice about it in response to Ash's post, but I can do that now after your universal proclamation 
