See, that's what makes photography very interesting. Each viewer has a different perception of an image. Such 'behind the scenes' information is where I think photographers have a tendency to get hung up on technicalities, writing off images due to procedural 'mistakes' that otherwise hold up on their own if viewed without that 'baggage,' for lack of a better word.
Weddings come to mind. Not sure if you guys have photographed many. It's very common for the couple to have favourable reactions to images that are not technically perfect, or don't conform to various compositional rules because their experience from the event colours their perceptions differently than that of the photographer. Because of this I tend to edit events quite lightly, and I think this spills over into my personal work as well, for better or worse.
We enjoy creating images because there is something we intend to communicate through them. And while often the results are not exactly as desired, less favoured images may still be appreciated by others. It's interesting to look on Flickr and see how photographers fill their photostreams. Some are extremely tightly edited. Only the very best images are presented. Others put up everything... Personally, seeing some of the 'failures' and the steps photographers go through while shooting is interesting and adds to the learning process. So Luka, don't be too hard on yourself for procedural errors. Difficult for an engineer, no doubt
BTW, nice images as usual Charles, Luka, Joe and Shuan!
Thank you Ron, excellent shot BTW Very interesting in composition of lines and textures.
Excellent perspective, on composition and story behind, and getting caught in the technicalities. So true! I feel this is the beauty with the M9, as it provide a different way at looking at shots.
Shaun, nice light (and dof in your photos
Charles, good use of the 35 as a portrait lens.
Luka, nice set. You really produce great photos with the ZM 18 in my opinion and the portrait is great as well
Ron, nice use of lines to create an interesting composition.
Charles I like how the 35Lux gives a very different perspective to portraits with the environment in the background. Nice shots!
Luka, are those ducks or it could be eagles on the wall on the first shot? Nice set, keep sharing. Nothing wrong with the 4th shot, like Ron said, don't be too hard on yourself.
I haven't tried large format but am looking at adding a TLR now. I haven't owned any TLRs in the past and think its about time. The Rolleiflex TLRs are really beautiful and some versions have very nice Zeiss Plannar or Tessar glass. I guarantee that the Rolleiflex will hit the roof (and more ) with your NFPH scale!
Ron, I like this last shot, From your post with the M9 so far, I can already tell its yours even before looking at your id, rigorous defined lines in many of your composition and rich colors are very much your signature. Did you shoot for newsprint in the past? I can see traces of excellent pj work in your shots.
I also enjoy looking at some of the flickr postings, where you can often see how a photographer progresses along their journey. Very interesting.
Well, Ron, there is no escaping that it was an operator error. In this case I had been trying to get a good shot of a guide in turban at the historical sites but just about every attempt was foiled by tourists jumping into the frame. So when I finally had a clean shot, I did not compose the image. The problem is that I'm used to the reverse order with my 5DII. I do the composition first and then adjust focus.
With DSLR MF lenses I can focus anywhere on the screen and not just in the center. The same is of course true when using live view. So my instinctive action is Compose-Focus not Focus-Compose.
Looking through my images I can see that it's a recurring phenomenon when I'm photographing people with the M9 - especially when it's candid photos.
rscheffler wrote:
Personally, seeing some of the 'failures' and the steps photographers go through while shooting is interesting and adds to the learning process.
Yes, I think so as well. My own policy is that I post a broad selection of images here, even the less good ones and pure technical test shots while I'm a bit more restrictive with what I post on my web gallery. I also post the technical information (lens, camera, exposure settings) that I don't in another context.
Very nice shot by the way, I really like the use of lines in the composition!
joe88 wrote:
Luka, are those ducks or it could be eagles on the wall on the first shot?
The duck is on the pillar dead center:
There's one here as well:
(This is actually pretty amazing, the obelisk in the shot above is over 3500 years old and yet the inscriptions look like they have been machine tooled today. Granite is really a remarkably hard stone).
Maybe the focus patch of the M9 will make you, me, us think differently when composing compared to DSLR and therefore it will make us create a different kind of photograph.
The guide photo is above is in my mind very well composed, he is explaining something and his left hand is pointing towards what he is talking about so both his hand and the inscriptions on the wall above his head is part of the story. His feet on the other hand (no pun intended) isn't part of the story so it's no problem that they have been left out and stepping back would probably have made the photo less interesting. It's all in the eye of the beholder, right
Hehe, yes that's one way of looking at it. Thing is though, that I'm for the most part a composition formalist. I usually shoot landscapes and try to find some geometrical arrangements of element to form the compositions. I can do it fairly well within convention with landscapes but I'm not especially proficient at a smaller scale. Ron's shot on the previous page or many of Makten's shots are examples of what I'd like to get better at. Anyway, if we take a typical shot of mine and break it down:
Ok, first level is only the basic rule of thirds. In this case it isn't perfect - I'd like that the left vertical line would have been a bit more to the left to go where the lake becomes more narrow. I find precise alignment to be much more difficult with the M9, without live view. It's easier when you have a plain 2D image to align things geometrically. Still, it's pretty close to the way I want it:
On the second level we have the main theme with a triangle composition. The bench, the sunset and buildings. The sunset is a nice bonus and the rest is by the book UWA composition:
Finally, we have have the triangle theme formed by the contours of the hill, the horizon and angle of the bench:
The initial inspiration for the triangles were if I remember correctly the sky. It's not as well defined but the clouds are in a wedge form definitely implying something triangle-ish.
Usually the minimum for me is one level. Two levels of arrangements is standard. Three is good and four excellent. The last one is very rare and usually requires a lot of luck and a lot of tripod movements. I don't think I can do that without live view though as it requires really precise alignment of elements.
Anyway the point is that my typical style of photography involves a slower pace and attention to the arrangement of elements in the composition. So shooting straight on without any composition and cutting the subject's legs off.. well, not my desired style really You can of course make a different interpretation of a photo. Strict composition is just one style of photography - there are many other styles. I myself don't just shoot geometrically composed landscape images - that's perhaps about 20% of my photos. But still, I found it sort of funny as the centered shot with no thought of composition is typical for beginners with DSLR AF lenses.
And yes, the 35 Lux ASPH is very very good. It is IMO only really the rendering of the lens that saved that particular image.
joakim wrote:
Maybe the focus patch of the M9 will make you, me, us think differently when composing compared to DSLR and therefore it will make us create a different kind of photograph.
Frankly, I don't see how Focus-Recompose is going to help us. It is for me one of the main drawback of the RF system. Being able to focus where you want saves time and drastically improves composition. I guess this is why some of us are using zone focusing on their RF quite a bit.
With the 5DII, I would only use the AF centre focus point since it was the most accurate and responsive, so I would end up focusing and recomposing anyway. My favourite with the 5DII was the matt focusing screen, with the MF Zeiss lenses, as you can easily focus off centre and have full control. But in reality, I am finding really no difference in the sequence of taking shots. Yes the accuracy of framing leaves something to be desired, but I am intuitively getting used of where the lines should be now too!
Joe: That's an interesting observation. I'm probably subconsciously hardwired for that type of composition/scene. I just seem to be drawn to lines and pattern and search for order in the world around me. Maybe it's inherited from my German parents?
I do have photojournalism experience, though not formally trained. While I haven't done much of it lately, it is a style I try to bring to corporate and event work. One of my current gigs is working with photos and multimedia behind the scenes in newspaper production, so I'm still somewhat indirectly involved.
Some of what you're seeing from me now (in post) might be due to Lightroom. I've only started using it since getting the M9 in late November. Prior to that I was a Canon DPP diehard (and still appreciate it), but my approach to post was more conservative. The more limited options in DPP meant I did more work in PS and therefore processed out RAW files conservatively, with the additional PS work in mind. But with LR it's a simple matter to quickly do most treatments without the need for PS and I feel I'm pushing files more than I would have otherwise in terms of contrast and perhaps color. I guess eventually I'll find a balance.
Luka, I know where you're coming from regarding your compositional frustrations with the M system. I have caught myself doing the same thing, especially with people photos, where I'll put the subject's face dead center with a huge void of wasted space above. It feels like such a beginners mistake. My consolation is knowing that there are 18MP with which to crop and hopefully improve the composition.
I'm curious, when you're photographing a scene like the one you dissected, are you analyzing it that thoroughly before you even take a picture? Are these conscious thoughts or is it more a feeling that something in front of you feels right? I think i'm relying more on an intuitive approach and often feel that I don't fully know why I want to photograph a given scene. Maybe I should more consciously determine what I'm photographing before I do so in the hopes of seeing and understanding it more clearly.
Also, for your recently posted ZM18 images, did you run them through cornerfix? I no longer see the telltale red edge...
Here's another one that is probably typical of me...
rscheffler wrote:
I'm curious, when you're photographing a scene like the one you dissected, are you analyzing it that thoroughly before you even take a picture? Are these conscious thoughts or is it more a feeling that something in front of you feels right?
Well, it's a combination. In the dissected shot above there were some obvious things. First of all, the lookout was already clearly designed to give a specific view in relation to the bench. The bench was pointing right towards the point where the lake disappears in the distance. The sun going down made for a very obvious third point. In addition the clouds had that wedge form. So I see that and it forms the central idea for the image. Then comes the set up using a tripod, trying to get the points where I want them. When I have a rough solution I start looking for more arrangements to make. As it was a clear triangle composition, I start looking for triangles and see how the water forms a triangle and how the snow, divided by the bench also gives rise to a triangular shape. So then I start moving around the tripod trying to incorporate that in the picture, probably swearing about the bushes on the left.
Finally, I take the shot, inspect it on the LCD and see that it's completely off. So I take two or three more with slight adjustments until I get it right.
Now that is one approach and it was my primary approach for almost six months when I was using the 5DII + Zeiss glass. Imagine it's a summer evening, the weather is beautiful and you've chosen a nice place with pleasant surroundings. You slowly stroll around, listening to music or an audio book looking for interesting scenes.. It's a very pleasant slow paced style of photography and is largely based on using a tripod and using live view.
Now on the other hand, it's cold, everything is white, we only have a few hours of daylight. The camera I'm using now doesn't really encourage tripod use. So my approach changes to being handheld and quick, more relying on instinct than on complex compositions. Shots like the one above are very rare exceptions when I use the M9.
I think i'm relying more on an intuitive approach and often feel that I don't fully know why I want to photograph a given scene. Maybe I should more consciously determine what I'm photographing before I do so in the hopes of seeing and understanding it more clearly.
Something that I've discovered recently and that I was not consciously aware of is that I use lens aperture in a very binary fashion. Either I do close to medium distances wide open or I do at/near infinity stopped down. When shooting wide open I'm counting on the lens to provide a lot in terms of OOF areas. It was because of that I was somewhat disappointed by the 35/2 Biogon and the 75 Cron as I did not feel that they were up to the task. Later after more use, I still did not like the 35/2 wide open or near wide open while I've started to appreciate the 75 Cron wide open at medium distances and even close up for some types of images where you don't want the background to overwhelm the main subject. The 35 Lux is however the first M9 lens that I truly find superb throughout the range. So anyway, for close ups to medium distances, I'm likely to use the lens OOF rendering as a key component in the image. Typical example:
So I thought that what I really ought to do is to take a single lens, say 35mm or 50mm and not shoot anything further away than say 10 meters and always at a small aperture (f/5.6 or f/8) for a week or so. That way I maybe will manage to train myself to find arrangements and compositions on that scale...
Also, for your recently posted ZM18 images, did you run them through cornerfix? I no longer see the telltale red edge...
Yep, they have been CornerFixed. I have a decent CF profile now
I do find composing with the M9 a very different experience than with the 5DII/DSLR. Personally I find composing with DSLR's more difficult as there is too much information. But then I do not do a lot of tripod work, I very much like the dynamic fashion of shots with the RF. DSLR's are more accurate in the respect WYSIWYG, but I still find I have had to include a margin on the shots to compensate for the 95% view, or depending on the size of the final print size. I do like the RF concept, particularly with the 35/50 FL's. But I still get frustrated with near MFD for portraits with the 75/90 FL's as the frame lines I have to mentally adjust for parallex. It is getting better! When I have lessons with a Pro Photog, he keeps reminding me watch the head space!!! But then this was a problem with the 5DII centre AF, if I did not recompose either. I am now understanding the popularity of the WA for the RF's, as I can use a 28 Elmarit at f/5.8 or 8 and use it as a P&S, and purely focus on the composition, and it is fun.
Ron, your shots do display your intuitive experience with composition . But still you have the formal training of being within the industry and there is no substitute for taking shots. Your PP of your shots do stand out too
Luka, yes the beauty of FF with a lens like the 35 Lux, lends itself to very unique shots. Initially with the 5DII, lenses like the 50L and 85L I, is look I was striving for in my images, but I soon became frustrated with focusing issues with the lenses wide open. I spent more time in making the lenses work, with numerous calibration issues, rather getting the shots. Great lenses though!
Interesting concept, having the narrow DOF, and the beautiful OOF rendering really connects you with the subject more initimately and is unique.
Luka, I must admit I admire your resolve with M9, as it sometimes seems to run against the more meditative style of photos you enjoy so much IMO I think within the next 2 years, we will see cameras that will encompass the features that will suit our styles more so, with the strong competition out there already. I must say I am really enjoying your new style that is shining through with the M9!
The more time I spend with the M9, the more I am enjoying the Leica lenses. This is purely based on rendering and feel to the shots. My investment lay in lenses, and hopefully this is the right decision longer term. The M9 will hopefully evolve and be improved upon, and maybe the NEX 7 FF become available too.
Nice shots Luka, and yes, I see the duck on the other shot as well. The 35Lux pics really sings!
Ron, yeah probably the German influence, even more so now that you have a Leica
I really respect all you landscape shooters, going the extra mile to compose your pictures.
------------
Weather has been too cold to stroll around outdoors, so I try to bring the M9 along when I'm out with the family and hope to catch one or two pics when I can. Here's one from today, walking from the parking lot to the mall. M9 35Lux f/8.
On another note, this afternoon I met a very nice gentlemen who sold me his entire collection of Leica Fotographie magazines from the 1980s for a very reasonable sum. I drove to his home to pick up the magazines and we had a little chat. He used to shoot with a M3 but sold it many years back. I took the opportunity to let him try my M9 and as much as he liked the camera, he told me that its too much camera for him. He runs an art gallery and now uses a Panasonic LX-5 to shoot gallery size large prints for his customers.
Took a quick picture of some of the magazines when I got home this evening. Can't wait to browse through the articles and pictures. Also, could not resist pairing the magazines with a camera from the same 80s vintage, a M6 TTL.
Joe, very nice shots! Love the first shot with the Lux Great treasure of Leica Fotographie magazines you have in possession now Very nice M6 TTL BTW!
My fiancee had her Canon S90 dropped at a BBQ, and damaged the lens, so we replaced it with Panasonic Lumix LX-5. I am quite amazed at the IQ from this P&S.
Thanks Charles Funny, I wanted the 35Lux ASPH so badly, and now that I have it, I actually prefer the 35CronIV for its size. I'm still trying to get used to the color rendering of the 35Lux ASPH, hopefully things will gel soon.
Sorry about your S90 but yes, the LX-5 is a wonderful camera. We have one and the B&W pics are amazing, not forgetting it has a "Vario" Summicron lens.
Joe, I like that mall shot - when I first saw it fly by as the page loaded I thought Cuba or USSR, probably because of the star and red color... haha...
Nice selection NikkorAIS!
I have an LX3 that my GF currently uses. I quite like it and was disappointed that Panny got rid of the focus preset button (replaced by the movie start button) on the LX5, otherwise I probably would have bought one. It was my favourite feature. I could keep the lens set on manual focus and activate AF whenever needed by pressing that button. It took AF off the shutter release and made for much faster, more spontaneous shooting. Now I'm intrigued by the new Olympus XZ-1. I don't think it will allow you to remove AF from the shutter release, but it will work with the VF-2 EVF, which is great because I don't like composing with the camera held two feet in front of me. That or maybe get an EPL2 with the VF-2 and the Panasonic 7-14 for the wide end, the CV 25mm f/0.95 for normal and use ZM glass with an adapter for longer... I think if the NEX cameras offered an EVF I would have already bought one.
Charles, I agree that in two years we'll see a much broader selection of cameras encroaching on the M series niche. I'm sure the other manufacturers have taken note of Leica's rebound but the question will be whether they feel it's worth the effort to address a niche with such a loyal following. A friend of mine at Canon, is very interested in my M9 feedback, so who knows... I doubt any of the majors will ever produce a mostly manual RF, but I envision something that is APS-C or APS-H, mirrorless, with EVF, compact but more friendly for advanced users than the NEX. Maybe even FF.
As I've said before, I don't really feel I'm strongly tied to Leica. At the moment they're the only ones that offer FF with that form factor and compatible with compact, high quality lenses. If I could use M lenses on a Canon or Nikon FF instead, then I would seriously consider it. But as you stated, and I think we've discussed before, there are certain aspects to the RF design that work well. I was also frustrated with AF inconsistency with the 50L and to a lesser degree the 85L. The rangefinder, when it works, allows me much more consistent focus. It's opposite to my AF experience where it would constantly make minor adjustments from frame to frame that in the end sometimes resulted in 50% being unusably misfocused...
NikkorAIS, nice shots! You have just posted the second lot of B&W shots. Excellent shots... love them
Ron, great shot Love the warm glow to the front of the arches!
My thinking with camaras has changed somewhat, in that after having migrated to ZE lenses with the 5DII, it was lenses that express the feeling and rendering I wish for in shots combined with a FF sensor. I am not caught in brands too much, as there are certain lenses within any manufacturers arsenal that are winners. One of my favourite lenses, was the Nikkor 105 with film, but looking back now, I may find it lacking. As much as I love the concept with the Fuji X100, the problem for me is the lack of interchangeable lenses. I am yet to try out the Leica lenses on a NEX 5. This is not in my budget for the moment!
) with your NFPH scale!
