denoir wrote:
Philippe, in my experience the problem with multiple systems is not that one is tempted to bring along too much gear but rather that a lot of the gear is unused most of the time. Since I got the M9 I have not used my DSLRs much as the former is so much more convenient. I have four separate systems now:
For everyday walkaround casual use the DSLRs are too big and heavy and the compact system is limited to one focal length and too much of a compromise in terms of IQ. So even if the rangefinder is not quite compact and although I somewhat prefer my DSLR Zeiss glass and 5DII color rendering I end up using the M9. It provides a very good balance between compactness and IQ. In short its superior IQ and exchangable lenses makes me chose it over the X1 and its compact size combined with still very good IQ makes me choose it over the 5DII + Zeiss glass. My 7D and Canon glass are unused for the most part as the only application where they have an edge are in action and longer tele photography and it's not something I do a lot of these days. The Pentax 67 medium format camera is mostly a toy - I'm not really a film guy. I'm actually waiting for a proper digital MF camera with at least a 6x7 sensor and live view to appear.
Luka, my approach is, as you can guess, rather different. I have a large system (DSLR plus 6 primes. There are times and places where this is too heavy/large/visible, so I looked for something much smaller but where the IQ would still meet my minimum requirements, hence the NEX. But, even if each of 4 NEX primes might individually make sense (ZM 18, 25, 35 f:2.8, 50 f:2.0); having those four, carrying them around in the required bag etc (and why not the Sony 18-200 AF zoom too, which is actually quite nice for this type of lens and would provide me with AF and longer FLs) would add up to a nice image-making system, but the original purpose would be totally defeated. I will stick to 2 lenses with the NEX. The 35 and either the 18 or the 25, and probably reduce the number of my lenses with the 5DII, as some of its everyday duties will now by taken over by the smaller system. The only reason I can see to buy a M9 would be to replace my DSLR. I just can't imagine owning both but actually only being caught out with the lesser one for my needs on that day.
Today I received the first lens for my new M8, the ZM18. It was already dark, but I still did a few test shots. So far I'm satisfied with the image quality. Sharpness and DR of the M8 (and the ZM18) are really good. But ....
I'm pretty sure, I will never love this camera. I really miss liveview when shooting from a tripod (or a bigger/better viewfinder). It is very diffult to see where the exact borders of the image are, especially with glasses. Mostly it is a hit and miss at the moment, leading to an iterative process of shooting, looking at the display and slightly adjusting the camera. Not really satisfying. I'm pretty sure I will never buy a M9 (at least not new for 5500€) and really hope that the M10 will be CMOS based and has liveview. Or that a fullframe NEX will appear sometimes in the near future. Since there is no really good alternative at the moment, I will keep the M8 and try to accustom myself to it. This is just my personal opinion for my style of photography. I don't say, that the M8 or M9 are a bad cameras, rather the opposite is true. The M8 is just not perfect for me. Maybe the M10 will. I really hope.
Nice looking results, especially for a first night out.
Give the camera a little time. It is possible that you will always miss LV, but it is also possible that after some time struggling to come to grips with the M8 that it will grow on you. It is rather different than anything else out there, apart from the M9. On a tripod it feels a little out of place. On the other hand, it has some other advantages over other systems, such as extreme simplicity and a very pure shooting experience, combined with high IQ and small size/weight.
After you have had it for a month or so, I would be interested to hear your further thoughts.
Joakim, nice set. Great light in #1. I almost missed the bottle in #2
KL nice shots with the 28 elmarit. I like the rendering style, very nice clarity.
Boris, congrats on the ZM18 and nice night shots.
Philippe & Boris (this will be general in nature but mostly relates to your two posts): I took a walk today with my 5DII and brought along a tripod. I started walking the same route as yesterday with the M9 but cut the expedition short becuse it was bloody cold. Along the path I took fewer shots than with the M9 and gave up on a couple that could have been nice simply because I did not want to remove the backpack, pick a lens with the appropriate focal length, mount it and put the previous lens in the backpack. It was simply too uncomfortably cold to bother with it. With the M9 I have a small shoulder bag that fits the camera and five lenses. I can change lenses very quickly and subsequently I don't hesitate to do so. This type of cold weather is of course an exception but it is not unique as a problem. If you are travelling with friends and family - how much patience do they have for you to set up camera gear? How often don't you bring a DSLR and a bunch of lenses simply because it's too cumbersome?
When you have all the time in the world, weight and size is not a critical issue and especially if you will be shooting from a tripod then a full DSLR with live view is unbeatable. I don't particularly like using the M9 from a tripod - you have to stick to conventional angles if you want to be able to focus, night exposures are a PITA because of the mandatory time consuming noise reduction etc. For handheld use and casual "walkaround" photography on the other hand the M9 is superb. It has really grown on me. It's difficult to say with 100% certainty but I believe that the M9 will be my tool of choice for 80% of my photography. When I travel - if the main purpose of the trip is photography - then a DSLR will still be my primary tool (until proper digital medium format sensor cameras with live view come to existance).
My ideal conditions for photography is when I'm not stressed, the weather and scenery is nice and I can wander around with my camera and tripod and do precise compositions. Live view plays an essential role there as I like to have my framing exact and I also like to work with arranging the background blur in an interesting way. For that ideal situation the M9 is not ideal. In reality however those ideal conditions represent a minority of the real conditions that I photograph under. Either I don't have the time that I want or I'm in non-photographer company or it's bloody cold outside and so on. In those cases I resort to a less strict and more mobile form of handheld photography. And for that the M9 is exceptionally good. It is a camera you can really use every day. It's also much better for people photography - mostly because people react more positively to a rangefinder camera than to a DSLR.
So Boris, I would agree with you that the M8/M9 is not very good for tripod use. I knew that when I got my M9. My discovery has been that it has however opened up a lot of photography that I would not be doing with a DSLR. What I liked to do with a tripod and DSLR I still like to do with a triopod and DSLR. The M9 can serve as a cumbersome substitute for those things but the main thing is that it's really good at other types of photography where a DSLR is too cumbersome. The two systems can overlap in function when needed but they excel at different things.
Thank you Joakim
Joakim, very nice shots I really like the soft rendering of #2.
KL, nice shots!!! Great stuff, hand held at 1/12s
Boris, nice night shots Congrats on the ZM 18! Luka, has succintly expressed where the M9 fits. I feel that maybe a more moderate FL lens for everyday use such as a 35 on the M8 would yield better results initially until you are comfortable with the M8.
I have been testing conversions with Capture One raw, having had a copy from before, just updated to ver 6.0. There seems to be different algorithms at work, but interesting that sometimes the C1, may suit better. I have included the above shot using C1 raw, rather than ACR then to CS5.
Sorry off topic, I don't know if some of you have the same problem when loading pages with FireFox, for instance when I loaded this page for the first time, I saw Charles post above but the picture and last text line was missing. Only after I posted, then the picture appeared with the additional text. Same with Joakim's post above, first time I only saw the pics without text. Anyone else had similar problems on the last few pages?
Bobu wrote:
Today I received the first lens for my new M8, the ZM18. It was already dark, but I still did a few test shots. So far I'm satisfied with the image quality. Sharpness and DR of the M8 (and the ZM18) are really good. But ....
I'm pretty sure, I will never love this camera. I really miss liveview when shooting from a tripod (or a bigger/better viewfinder). It is very diffult to see where the exact borders of the image are, especially with glasses. Mostly it is a hit and miss at the moment, leading to an iterative process of shooting, looking at the display and slightly adjusting the camera. Not really satisfying. I'm pretty sure I will never buy a M9 (at least not new for 5500€) and really hope that the M10 will be CMOS based and has liveview. Or that a fullframe NEX will appear sometimes in the near future. Since there is no really good alternative at the moment, I will keep the M8 and try to accustom myself to it. This is just my personal opinion for my style of photography. I don't say, that the M8 or M9 are a bad cameras, rather the opposite is true. The M8 is just not perfect for me. Maybe the M10 will. I really hope.
Boris, I agree with you but am slowly changing my approach when using the M vs. a DSLR. I find that I get more in the final image than what the viewfinder framing indicates, therefore I will crop slightly in Lightroom to achieve the desired composition. At least on the M9 losing 10-15% of the image to cropping has minimal impact on image quality if high resolution is desired/required. It would be a lot more frustrating if image capture was tighter than indicated by the viewfinder.
The greatest challenge for me is with the 21 when photographing something that clearly shows perspective with straight lines, like buildings. With a DSLR and live view it's a simple matter to see when a slight twist in one direction or the other eliminates distracting distortion, and with an UWA lens it can be a very small shift that results in such distortion. For example, I don't think I'd be able to use the TS-E 17 and control perspective without live view. With the M9 and the 21 I've settled on getting it as close as reasonably possible and making final perspective correction tweaks in Lightroom such as the image below, which needed some rotation and a horizontal transform to get it to where I liked it. I agree with the comment earlier that starting with the 18 on the M8 might as a result be more frustrating initially than starting with a more 'normal' lens and that you should give it some time.
And along the lines of the hand held slow shutter speed theme, the image below was shot at 1/12 and is pretty sharp, though would have been better on a tripod. But I don't like tripods...
Joe: not having a problem here, but using Safari 5 on OSX 10.6.4. In the past with this combination I have had slow loading and partial page loading of FM, but don't know where the problem might be, though I'd speculate it could be ISP or FM server related. For example, at 5am ET it's pretty common in my experience that FM is unresponsive for a period of time...
Ron, beautiful shot!!! Love the rendering and mood to this shot.
Joe, about 7 - 8pm local time here in Oz, FM is quiet unresponsive, as if the server is being maintained. I use both FF and IE. Would correlate relatively close to the same time as Ron is experiencing similar issues.
Charles and Ron, I agree that the ZM18 is probably not the best lens to start. The M8 is probably much easier to use with a normal lens like a 50mm. But the ZM18 is the only lens I could get at the moment.
These are the delivery times of the other lenses I would like to get:
ZM50 or ZM35: 2-4 weeks
ZM25: 2-3 month
Lux50: 6-9 month
I also agree with Lukas description where the M9 fits. But if it had liveview (and a better display) nearly all of its shortcomings where solved and it could be used as a high IQ, yet lightweight and small, alternative to a DSLR.
Its ok for me to buy a 1500€ camera (used M8) and mostly use it for walking around and taking some nice snapshots. But when I spend 5500€ on a body (M9) it has to fulfill all my needs.
