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Archive 2010 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?

  
 
pdxflint
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p.6 #1 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Hlavo..., I'm just not really sure why you keep wanting to "strip down" the top-level DX pro-oriented camera body... to wit: "the natural extension of the D100/D200/D300 line is a stripped down, semi-pro D400..."
Are you saying the D300s's successor won't sell unless it's "stripped" down? How would you "strip" it down? Make it a D90? Take away the best performing Nikon AF module? Take away the dual-slots? The durability and shutter life? Drop the fps? Make it out of molded plastic? Add a cheap kit lens? What? They already have that, it's called a D90/Dxx. So you're saying Nikon should take the D400 and "strip" it? I wouldn't want one, and wouldn't buy it, most likely. I think if Nikon did this, they'd simply be targeting the same people who already buy less expensive, easier to use, more automated bodies, and they'd be abandoning the pro-sumers, advanced amateurs and pros, all who the current D300 series camera slots right into as a very viable market. This market will not automatically 'convert' to the Nikon FX models for at least a couple of reasons: FX doesn't meet their needs; FX requires a substantial re-investment that the photographer may not see a real-world benefit from...i.e. more published/sold images, bigger profits. Without those last two actually penciling out, lots of pros would prefer to not spend the money to "switch" to FX just because Nikon abandoned the pro segment with their top-line DX camera. It might make some folks simply switch to Canon, if you want to know the truth. Canon's 7D is no slouch, and it's crop sensor. If there's no D300s upgrade/evolution, maybe more than a few folks give the Canon a real look-- not in Nikon's best interests... methinks.

BTW, we're sort of on the same track with the "divisions" of dSLR categories for Nikon, but I don't think it has anything to do with sensor size... the "groups" are already in place-- the Dxxx group (entry level,) the Dxx group (advanced/experienced photographer,) the Dxxx/Dx group (expert/pro.) These classifications have nothing to do with sensor size. Let's face it, there are bigger sensors out there in medium format land, but not all professional jobs call for them. The D300 12.3mp DX sensor already can do anything 35mm used to do, and that was a hell of a lot. Just ask National Geographic, or any major newspaper or magazine.

The need for FX is a bit overstated, although it certainly does help with high ISO performance as long as the pixel density is not compromised. For many photographers, pro or otherwise, the characteristics of lenses on a full-frame body is like the going back to the old 35mm days, so clearly it's attractive in that sense. It's familiar territory-- a 135mm lens acts like a 135mm lens on 35mm film. A 50mm is a "normal." All the old paradigms can be maintained, especially for older photographers who grew up with 35mm. But, what the heck does "full-frame" even mean, in the real world? In a few years when there isn't a single new photographer who has ever experienced 35mm, "full-frame" won't even make sense. There will be no way to really relate to it... "full-frame of what?" There is no reason to stop at "full-frame" either, other than current optics were largely inherited from 35mm, so FX becomes the upper limit, sizewise, without designing an entirely new system from the ground up, lenses and all. As sensor technology advances and computing power continues its miniaturization/low power needs/high performance path, the need for FX/full-frame concept might become irrelevant anyway. So, in the meantime... I want my pro-oriented camera available in both DX and FX sensor for some time to come. Are you listening, Nikon?

Who knows what the long term future will shake out like. Once there are no longer any old concepts/ideas to cling to (35mm SLRs,) cameras could take any form and size. But as long as we're still living in a world where dSLRs have evolved from their 35mm predecessors the idea of full-frame sensors will hold some real sway, even if the actual benefits don't necessarily turn into additional profits. That's why I want my D400 to be top-level all the way high tech DX format. And I want a D700s, too.



Jul 29, 2010 at 12:26 AM
hlavo
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p.6 #2 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


pdxflint -

You make a good case for the alternative.....I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

ps. Oh by the way, by "stripped down", no I did not mean a D90. As I said in my first few posts, by "stripped down" I meant smaller but not D90 small, magnesium but perhaps not weather sealing, no amateur modes, processing, etc, preferably (IMO) no video, not as many options and memory banks (but still some), retaining screw drive and AI-reading, and retaining the autofocus system and frame-rate, perhaps even beefing them up to the (presumably) faster pro level for sports shooters and wildlife shooters. The emphasis would be on what sophisticated amateur shooters (and pro's who choose it as a second body) need, not the full pro treatment, and certainly not the amateur treatment. But the whole thing to be sold at a $1200-1500 price point. The "stripping down" and use of a smaller sensor should make this possible.



Jul 29, 2010 at 07:39 AM
firewireguy
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p.6 #3 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


This thread is long enough, but I just have to add that I can't disagree with hlavo more.
The D300 is a great success and its replacement will continue to be a great success and will have be higher quality and be more feature rich than the current D300.



Jul 29, 2010 at 08:07 AM
j.liam
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p.6 #4 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


An APS-C sensor in a body the size of my beloved FM-2T.

Doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles of a D90/300, no video, no flash. Just the basics.

That's all I have to say (and want).



Jul 29, 2010 at 08:22 AM
String
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p.6 #5 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Since the D300(s) has been arguably the class leader since its intoduction, I'm sure Nikon would love to have another "failure" in its next generation



Jul 29, 2010 at 09:41 AM
lou f
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p.6 #6 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


it's a pity i can delete the original post like we use to be able too.


Jul 29, 2010 at 09:46 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.6 #7 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


louis fusco wrote:
it's a pity i can delete the original post like we use to be able too.



Yes, because open discussion and debate are terrible things.



Jul 29, 2010 at 11:08 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.6 #8 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hidden_Markov wrote:
D300s is not a d700/d3 and they are not competitors. Nikon is not even marketting it like that. Step back, see the forest from the trees and you might see nikon has these marketted as complementary bodies. Same feature sets, same menus dman near, yet different abilities.

In all honesty, if you stepped back and focused more on what the d300s has more than what it doesn't you might just see nikon wants you to have it....and the d700 lol (cause nikon knows full well d3's are not going to be selling like hotcakes, d300s and d700 combo though....well under
...Show more


Well said.



Jul 29, 2010 at 11:14 AM
lou f
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p.6 #9 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


discussion and debate as in guessing and speculation. terrible as in repetitive and monotonous?




Jul 29, 2010 at 11:17 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.6 #10 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


louis fusco wrote:
discussion and debate as in guessing and speculation. terrible as in repetitive and monotonous?




You could look at it that way, or you could look at it as an exchange of ideas. Despite my 180 degree view from hlavo, I think he made some interesting points and defended his ideas well. It got me thinking. And obviously it got others thinking as well as they chimed with with alternative points of view. That's all good if you ask me.

And, speculating on what Nikon will do long term is important if you are spending lots of money building up your gear slowly over time. I agree that short term speculation is pointless.

This disucssion about the D300 and its future replacement was more interesting in that hlavo was thinking more strategicly than others have in the past and he asked more fundamental questions. A tribute to his marketing experience even if I disagree with him.




Jul 29, 2010 at 11:32 AM
pdxflint
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p.6 #11 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Louis, you shouldn't be upset when you toss out a ball and a game breaks out...


Jul 29, 2010 at 12:35 PM
hlavo
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p.6 #12 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


You guys might be interested in this post from DPReview now a month or so later, after the D3100 release and D7000 renaming. See if it doesn't break pretty much along the lines I originally suggested....FX for pro and semi-pro; DX for amateur. Still makes sense to me.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=36117598

Edited on Aug 25, 2010 at 04:23 PM · View previous versions



Aug 25, 2010 at 09:51 AM
cputeq
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p.6 #13 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Its not that the D300 is out of place, but the D90. There really is no need for its existence now that a lower line of camera has video...at least I have never understood this segment. I love my d90 just fine but it really doesn't have anything I couldn't do with d5000 (does it have video?) Besides flash commander.

I could easily see the d90 and d300 lines merged. Its not that there isn't enough differences between d90 and d300 (there are), but there are not enough between d90 and lower models.

Back to OP - if we assume this camera is real, this is clearly a d300 upgrade, meant to compete with canon's very strong 7d offering in the enthusiast/pro dx format.

Youj eliminate the d90 line altogether (think how many people would buy d300 if d90 did offer "just good enough" performance?), you amp up the d300 line to take back the thunder canon is stealing, then migrate sensor improvements upward.

Nikon has already said future offerings would see more balance between iso and mp, so it would make sense to migrate "d400" tech to d700, maybe d3 upgrades.

I don't see d3s sensor sticking around for long unless they can work some special mojo with it, then again I don't know if noise improvements in d3s are from sensor, or if maybe they come from improved algorithms and electronics that nikon is ready to move DOWNWARD to the d400, combined with the new d400 sensor, for a killer combo.



Aug 25, 2010 at 10:09 AM
lou f
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p.6 #14 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
You guys might be interested in this post from DPReview now a month or so later, after the D3100 release and D7000 renaming. See if it doesn't break pretty much along the lines I originally suggested....FX for pro and semi-pro; DX for amateur. Still makes sense to me.


pro's don't use DX, really?



Aug 25, 2010 at 10:33 AM
az-dave
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p.6 #15 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


What if the D300s replacement has a FX sensor with the ISO performance of the D700 and capable of being cropped in the 14mp range. With the rest of the specs being equivalent or better than a D300s at a similar price point. Wouldn't that better meet the needs of a wider range of photographers.

Better yet is a camera with a replaceable sensor module. Need low light plug in the D3s sensor. High MP full frame D3x sensor. Need reach what ever new gee wiz high MP DX sensor they come out with.



Aug 25, 2010 at 10:46 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.6 #16 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


az-dave wrote:
What if the D300s replacement has a FX sensor with the ISO performance of the D700 and capable of being cropped in the 14mp range. With the rest of the specs being equivalent or better than a D300s at a similar price point. Wouldn't that better meet the needs of a wider range of photographers.

Better yet is a camera with a replaceable sensor module. Need low light plug in the D3s sensor. High MP full frame D3x sensor. Need reach what ever new gee wiz high MP DX sensor they come out with.



What you describe would be a replacement for the D700, not the D300s. And, as stated many times over, FX will be significantly more expensive. The need for a DX pro body remains.



Aug 25, 2010 at 10:59 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.6 #17 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


hlavo wrote:
You guys might be interested in this post from DPReview now a month or so later, after the D3100 release and D7000 renaming. See if it doesn't break pretty much along the lines I originally suggested....FX for pro and semi-pro; DX for amateur. Still makes sense to me.



It would be nice if you would link to the post so we can see what you are talking about.

The D7000 is still vapor-ware and would presumably replace the D90 per the rumors. I still don't see how this precludes the need for a pro-level DX body. And, even if you are right (which I doubt), it would be a foolish move on Nikon's part not to have a DX pro-level body as a "stepping-stone" to the more expensive FX camera bodies.



Aug 25, 2010 at 11:04 AM
az-dave
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p.6 #18 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Andre Labonte wrote:
And, as stated many times over, FX will be significantly more expensive. The need for a DX pro body remains.

FX is only currently significantly more expensive. Technology has historically gotten cheaper over time. Just look back at how expensive microwaves, VCRs, flat screen TVs and other items were at introduction compared to where they are priced now. I remember trying to decide between 40 and 70 MB hard drives for about 300 dollars now we buy 1 TB drives for around a 100 dollars.



Aug 25, 2010 at 11:33 AM
cbrandt
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p.6 #19 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


as a wildlife shooter .. the d300s and d700 are good enough .. only way I'd change out to this D90 ( D300 killer I DOUBT IT ) would be if my body was so damaged or stolen and insurance bought me a new one.

I dropped my first D300 with a 600mm on it .. the D buffered the fall, ending up being physically and electronically broken, so with the check from State Farm, bought a D700 with $750 to boot. Tis the only way I'd get off my D300s for sure.



Aug 25, 2010 at 12:27 PM
hlavo
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p.6 #20 · what'll this mean for future FX cameras?


Oops....I screwed up. I've added the link to both the original post and here. Sorry about that.....too tired, I guess.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1039&message=36117598



Aug 25, 2010 at 04:24 PM
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