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Archive 2009Canon EOS 7D Master thread
p.12 #1Canon EOS 7D Master thread
M Vers wrote:
Max aperture on the MP-E 65mm is f/2.8. Stock focusing screens can show accurate DOF for f/2.8. It's when you get to larger apertures that you start having problems. When an f/1.2 lens has DOF like an f/2.8 in the viewfinder, you're not sure if you've nailed focus or not until you've taken the shot.Have you no experience with macro, let alone at 5x mag? If you did, you would understand that the DOF is literally razor thin even when stopped down. Remember, distance plays an enormous role pertaining to DOF, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF.
Yes, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF. That's a given. But it is my understanding that a stock focusing screen would show the proper DOF for an f/2.8 and smaller lens regardless of distance and actual DOF amount, whereas the same focusing screen would not show proper DOF for lenses larger than f/2.8 (I think the actual number is f/2.5?) regardless of distance. Am I wrong? I'd love to learn if so.
It's not about how small the DOF is. It's about accuracy of what you see vs. what you will capture.
Yohan Pamudji wrote
n0b0 wrote
If I can MF the MP-E 65mm at 5:1 with the Rebel VF, I sure as hell can MF any lens with this 7D. You guys whinge too much.Yes, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF. That's a given. But it is my understanding that a stock focusing screen would show the proper DOF for an f/2.8 and smaller lens regardless of distance and actual DOF amount, whereas the same focusing screen would not show proper DOF for lenses larger than f/2.8 (I think the actual number is f/2.5?) regardless of distance. Am I wrong? I'd love to learn if so.
It's not about how small the DOF is. It's about accuracy of what you see vs. what you will capture.
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:38 PM
p.12 #2Canon EOS 7D Master thread
kapytalyst wrote:
So while the 7D might be an astounding camera in its own right, there are some of us that will reiterate..."why, why wouldn't they make a FF version?"
I'm sure Canon has one in the works, either the 5DIII or the 3D (but that's a whole different rumor thread). You just have to wait for it to be released, or switch to Nikon if you can't wait
So while the 7D might be an astounding camera in its own right, there are some of us that will reiterate..."why, why wouldn't they make a FF version?"
I'm sure Canon has one in the works, either the 5DIII or the 3D (but that's a whole different rumor thread). You just have to wait for it to be released, or switch to Nikon if you can't wait
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:40 PM
p.12 #3Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Dunno if this has been shared here yet.
Lot's to read here:
"Designed by you, built by Canon."
http://www.canon-europe.com/cpn_eos7d/
Lot's to read here:
"Designed by you, built by Canon."
http://www.canon-europe.com/cpn_eos7d/
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:43 PM
p.12 #4Canon EOS 7D Master thread
chetcarson wrote:
Dunno if this has been shared here yet.
Lot's to read here:
"Designed by you, built by Canon."
http://www.canon-europe.com/cpn_eos7d/
For those who remained unconvinced, there you have it straight from the horses mouth--the 7D will not be replacing the X0D series.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 01:55 PM · View previous versions
Dunno if this has been shared here yet.
Lot's to read here:
"Designed by you, built by Canon."
http://www.canon-europe.com/cpn_eos7d/
For those who remained unconvinced, there you have it straight from the horses mouth--the 7D will not be replacing the X0D series.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 01:55 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:54 PM
p.12 #5Canon EOS 7D Master thread
M Vers wrote:
Max aperture on the MP-E 65mm is f/2.8. Stock focusing screens can show accurate DOF for f/2.8. It's when you get to larger apertures that you start having problems. When an f/1.2 lens has DOF like an f/2.8 in the viewfinder, you're not sure if you've nailed focus or not until you've taken the shot.Have you no experience with macro, let alone at 5x mag? If you did, you would understand that the DOF is literally razor thin even when stopped down. Remember, distance plays an enormous role pertaining to DOF, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF.
Have you no experience manually focusing fast glass? If you did, you'd understand what Yohan is talking about here. It has nothing to do with distance or DOF and everything to do with the fact that a stock focusing screen cannot accurately represent what is in focus when using lenses faster than f2.8. What looks to be in focus will not necessarily be in focus.
In other words, manually focusing the MP-E 65 with a stock screen at any magnification is doable because it is an f2.8 lens. The stock screen will be accurate enough because that is what it is (barely) designed for. For faster lenses it won't, regardless of focus distance or anything else. This is precisely why the type S screens are offered for other bodies. Hence, n0b0's statement is irrelevant. Being able to focus the MP-E 65 with a stock screen (regardless of magnification) does not mean he can easily focus faster glass on a stock screen (regardless of what camera he is using, the distance, the aperture, or anything else). Furthermore, I can guarantee you that n0b0 would find an S type screen to be far more accurate than a stock screen even with is MP-E 65 and other f2.8 lenses, for MF. So, where he finds the stock screen "sufficient", he would certainly find the S type screen to be "optimal".
But ignorance is bliss, so if you want to go on believing that S type screens are unimportant, then by all means...
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:02 PM · View previous versions
Yohan Pamudji wrote
n0b0 wrote
If I can MF the MP-E 65mm at 5:1 with the Rebel VF, I sure as hell can MF any lens with this 7D. You guys whinge too much.Have you no experience manually focusing fast glass? If you did, you'd understand what Yohan is talking about here. It has nothing to do with distance or DOF and everything to do with the fact that a stock focusing screen cannot accurately represent what is in focus when using lenses faster than f2.8. What looks to be in focus will not necessarily be in focus.
In other words, manually focusing the MP-E 65 with a stock screen at any magnification is doable because it is an f2.8 lens. The stock screen will be accurate enough because that is what it is (barely) designed for. For faster lenses it won't, regardless of focus distance or anything else. This is precisely why the type S screens are offered for other bodies. Hence, n0b0's statement is irrelevant. Being able to focus the MP-E 65 with a stock screen (regardless of magnification) does not mean he can easily focus faster glass on a stock screen (regardless of what camera he is using, the distance, the aperture, or anything else). Furthermore, I can guarantee you that n0b0 would find an S type screen to be far more accurate than a stock screen even with is MP-E 65 and other f2.8 lenses, for MF. So, where he finds the stock screen "sufficient", he would certainly find the S type screen to be "optimal".
But ignorance is bliss, so if you want to go on believing that S type screens are unimportant, then by all means...
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:02 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:54 PM
p.12 #6Canon EOS 7D Master thread
jerrykur wrote:
What is your budget. 1DMK4 will likely be in the $4,000+ range.
The 1D3 was $3999 last April '07 and street was lower than that. So it breaching $4,000 is unlikely especially if Nikon updates the D3 and lowers prices some more.
Having Nikon isn't all that bad. It eggs Canon along to do better.
What is your budget. 1DMK4 will likely be in the $4,000+ range.
The 1D3 was $3999 last April '07 and street was lower than that. So it breaching $4,000 is unlikely especially if Nikon updates the D3 and lowers prices some more.
Having Nikon isn't all that bad. It eggs Canon along to do better.
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:55 PM
p.12 #7Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Yohan Pamudji wrote:
Max aperture on the MP-E 65mm is f/2.8. Stock focusing screens can show accurate DOF for f/2.8. It's when you get to larger apertures that you start having problems. When an f/1.2 lens has DOF like an f/2.8 in the viewfinder, you're not sure if you've nailed focus or not until you've taken the shot.Have you no experience with macro, let alone at 5x mag? If you did, you would understand that the DOF is literally razor thin even when stopped down. Remember, distance plays an enormous role pertaining to DOF, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF.Yes, the closer you are to the subject the less perceived DOF. That's a given. But it is my understanding that a stock focusing screen would show the proper DOF for an f/2.8 and smaller lens regardless of distance and actual DOF amount, whereas the same focusing screen would not show proper DOF for lenses larger than f/2.8 (I think the actual number is f/2.5?) regardless of distance. Am I wrong? I'd love to learn if so.
It's not about how small the DOF is. It's about accuracy of what you see vs. what you will capture.
Yohan, you are basically right, but bringing DOF into it just confuses these poor fellas.
M Vers wrote
Yohan Pamudji wrote
n0b0 wrote
If I can MF the MP-E 65mm at 5:1 with the Rebel VF, I sure as hell can MF any lens with this 7D. You guys whinge too much.It's not about how small the DOF is. It's about accuracy of what you see vs. what you will capture.
Yohan, you are basically right, but bringing DOF into it just confuses these poor fellas.
Sep 02, 2009 at 01:56 PM
p.12 #8Canon EOS 7D Master thread
PierreB wrote:
Contrary to popular wisdom I don't think full frame is always the answer all of the time, I quite enjoy my high FPS crop bodies, and then when they drop an FF sensor into the 7D body, I'll buy one of those too, and have a camera for literally every situation I'll ever come across in my working life, then I can wean myself off this boardAlthough I haven't ordered one (yet), I agree with Chris here. I have a 1DMkII & a 1DsMkIII but sometimes I need better low light performance than they deliver. I often shoot in theatres with just the stage lighting so as long as the 7D delivers clean images at 1600 ISO that can be printed up to 18x24" then it will have a place in my PELI case until something better comes along. I have not seen any sample shots yet so I'll reserve judgement until I can test drive one but it certainly looks like it will do what...Show more →
there really isn't much of a chance it will deliver better ISO1600 than the 1dsiii i can't imagine.
although i very certainly could imagine it beating the 1d2
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:40 PM · View previous versions
Chris Beaumont wrote
I love it, no it's not full frame, but it's also the last crop camera I'll ever need to buy, I've already pre-ordered mine and can't wait to get my mitts on it, I'll keep using it until it disintegrates.Contrary to popular wisdom I don't think full frame is always the answer all of the time, I quite enjoy my high FPS crop bodies, and then when they drop an FF sensor into the 7D body, I'll buy one of those too, and have a camera for literally every situation I'll ever come across in my working life, then I can wean myself off this board
there really isn't much of a chance it will deliver better ISO1600 than the 1dsiii i can't imagine.
although i very certainly could imagine it beating the 1d2
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:40 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:00 PM
p.12 #9Canon EOS 7D Master thread
RalphJ wrote:
I've seen several speculations in Nikon forums -- and not just at dpreview! -- that there won't be a 24mp D700x ("If you want 24mp, shell out $8K," Nikon says) but instead a D700v that's a refreshed 12mp D700 with video. It's all rumor, of course, but an interesting change in expectations if true.
ugh maybe they are both protecting eachother from the 'horrors' of having to release a D700x or 3D....
anyway certainly within 5 years its got to happen though maybe not if 6 months to a year.
Daan B wrote
So, now Nikon should hurry up releasing their D700x, and there will -finally- be some room for pro-like AF in a pro-sumer FF body.ugh maybe they are both protecting eachother from the 'horrors' of having to release a D700x or 3D....
anyway certainly within 5 years its got to happen though maybe not if 6 months to a year.
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:02 PM
p.12 #10Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Two things are clear
1. The 7D is not full frame
2. The 7D does not have Ef-S screen option.
Why is there so much arguing/complaining about these 2 things? It's not going to change the 7D.
1. The 7D is not full frame
2. The 7D does not have Ef-S screen option.
Why is there so much arguing/complaining about these 2 things? It's not going to change the 7D.
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:02 PM
p.12 #11Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Rob Whiting wrote:
I'm sure Canon has one in the works, either the 5DIII or the 3D (but that's a whole different rumor thread). You just have to wait for it to be released, or switch to Nikon if you can't wait
There is no way a 5D will have features like the 7D, if it did, then it makes the top 1D redundant and a poor investment. The 5D is a different market segment and will be kept separate. The 1D series will have , at the time of release , the best that Canon has at the time. The "problem" with digital is that it marches forward so the top tier ends up looking a little tired prior to the next generation.
kapytalyst wrote
So while the 7D might be an astounding camera in its own right, there are some of us that will reiterate..."why, why wouldn't they make a FF version?"There is no way a 5D will have features like the 7D, if it did, then it makes the top 1D redundant and a poor investment. The 5D is a different market segment and will be kept separate. The 1D series will have , at the time of release , the best that Canon has at the time. The "problem" with digital is that it marches forward so the top tier ends up looking a little tired prior to the next generation.
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.12 #12Canon EOS 7D Master thread
The Live View feature sort of takes care of critical manual lens focusing...
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.12 #13Canon EOS 7D Master thread
veroman wrote:
I agree. It's a boring camera, one with all of the marketing features but only a few of the most meaningful features. What I want to see is a Canon crop camera with the DR of a Fuji S5 Pro. I want to see a Canon crop camera that will let me shoot at f/13-16. I want to see a Canon crop camera with no AA filter. I want to see a Canon crop camera that's totally weather-sealed. And I want to see a Canon crop camera with the build and handling of a Nikon D300s. (I also want to...Show more →
you do realize that going to crazy high MP counts is the only thing leading towards getting rid of the AA filter?
I thought it said this is totally weather-sealed.
It looks like it will handle better than a D300.
Wht do you mean a crop cam taht cna shoot at f/13? This does no worse than any other there.
John Power wrote
Oh wow. A new release. So what. Trade my 5D2 for a 7D? Will it shoot in complete darkness? I am already bored with the topic. Am I alone? A voice crying in the wilderness. A modern day Robison Crusoe. I can't even gather enough energy to open the 7D threads...you do realize that going to crazy high MP counts is the only thing leading towards getting rid of the AA filter?
I thought it said this is totally weather-sealed.
It looks like it will handle better than a D300.
Wht do you mean a crop cam taht cna shoot at f/13? This does no worse than any other there.
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.12 #14Canon EOS 7D Master thread
cogitech wrote:
But ignorance is bliss, so if you want to go on believing that S type screens are unimportant, then by all means...
And so it is, you should know
Remember you are the minority, Canon doesn't care about you or the other 1% of photographers who shoot MF more often than not, They won't loose sleep, let alone sales, because you can't use it with a Canon branded focus screen with one specific camera designed for action photography. They didn't implement a 19 pt. AF system in the 7D so you can MF better.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:06 PM · View previous versions
But ignorance is bliss, so if you want to go on believing that S type screens are unimportant, then by all means...
And so it is, you should know
Remember you are the minority, Canon doesn't care about you or the other 1% of photographers who shoot MF more often than not, They won't loose sleep, let alone sales, because you can't use it with a Canon branded focus screen with one specific camera designed for action photography. They didn't implement a 19 pt. AF system in the 7D so you can MF better.Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:06 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:04 PM
p.12 #15Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Rob Whiting wrote:
Two things are clear
1. The 7D is not full frame
2. The 7D does not have Ef-S screen option.
Why is there so much arguing/complaining about these 2 things? It's not going to change the 7D.
Because it should have been full frame and had an S-type screen option.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:07 PM · View previous versions
Two things are clear
1. The 7D is not full frame
2. The 7D does not have Ef-S screen option.
Why is there so much arguing/complaining about these 2 things? It's not going to change the 7D.
Because it should have been full frame and had an S-type screen option.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:07 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:05 PM
p.12 #16Canon EOS 7D Master thread
PhotoMaximum wrote:
The Live View feature sort of takes care of critical manual lens focusing...
No, it doesn't. (Unless all you shoot is tripod-based macro and landscape)
The Live View feature sort of takes care of critical manual lens focusing...
No, it doesn't. (Unless all you shoot is tripod-based macro and landscape)
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:06 PM
p.12 #17Canon EOS 7D Master thread
veroman wrote:
I'm afraid that marketing plays a far more significant role in the development of these cameras than might otherwise be believed ... or that you WANT to believe.
I'm not suggesting that the real world performance of the new 7D is anything less than what you and others expect or have assumed. I am suggesting, though, that R&D, product development AND marketing pretty much work together at some point to develop a camera that people will purchase. If they don't, Canon doesn't make any money on it.
Do you think the term "Digic III" came from the engineers? Do you think that...Show more →
and even more often marketing messes up teh specs compared to what it might have been otherwise. I've talked to tons of engineers sickened by what marketing has done (and some who lost tons of money when their companies stock plummeted after marketing's 'brilliant' suggestions). Marketing people usually don't know a heck of a lot about technology nor much about the art in using it (of course there are exceptions).
keithreeder wrote
That smug, know-it-all, "too cool for school" superiority is wearing pretty thin, Canonical. The fact is is you know nothing more about the Real World performance of this camera than the folk who are enthusiastic about it: but unlike you, some of the folk who are enthusing have demonstrated many times that they know a thing or two about photography, rather than simply being some smartarse who likes to give the impression that he's too clever to be fooled by Canon marketeers...I'm not suggesting that the real world performance of the new 7D is anything less than what you and others expect or have assumed. I am suggesting, though, that R&D, product development AND marketing pretty much work together at some point to develop a camera that people will purchase. If they don't, Canon doesn't make any money on it.
Do you think the term "Digic III" came from the engineers? Do you think that...Show more →
and even more often marketing messes up teh specs compared to what it might have been otherwise. I've talked to tons of engineers sickened by what marketing has done (and some who lost tons of money when their companies stock plummeted after marketing's 'brilliant' suggestions). Marketing people usually don't know a heck of a lot about technology nor much about the art in using it (of course there are exceptions).
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:10 PM
p.12 #18Canon EOS 7D Master thread
Just looked at the huge example files on robgalbraith.com. If I have this camera some of my female friend would hate me. It shows so much details! They'd hate that the photos shows their pores etc etc.
There's noise for sure but man that's a lot of details in even the ISO 3200 files.
There's noise for sure but man that's a lot of details in even the ISO 3200 files.
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:12 PM
p.12 #19Canon EOS 7D Master thread
hfillmore wrote:
I love everything I've read about this new cam, but the only reservation I have at this point is how diffraction limited this new sensor might be because of it's miniscule pixel size. I don't see this as any limitation whatsoever for sports and action, the arena for which the camera was built.
But for landscape photography, where DOF is so critical, it may be a limiting factor. Could there be something about the new sensor design that breaks the old diffraction rules? Hope so.
Harvey
Listen it won't do any worse, it can only do marginal better at f/16 and the liek and no, there is no way a basic sensor itself can break the rules of diffraction unless it can rewrite the way the universe runs.
All it means it that you won't see as big a difference between say 8MP and 18MP when stopped down a lot.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:42 PM · View previous versions
I love everything I've read about this new cam, but the only reservation I have at this point is how diffraction limited this new sensor might be because of it's miniscule pixel size. I don't see this as any limitation whatsoever for sports and action, the arena for which the camera was built.
But for landscape photography, where DOF is so critical, it may be a limiting factor. Could there be something about the new sensor design that breaks the old diffraction rules? Hope so.
Harvey
Listen it won't do any worse, it can only do marginal better at f/16 and the liek and no, there is no way a basic sensor itself can break the rules of diffraction unless it can rewrite the way the universe runs.
All it means it that you won't see as big a difference between say 8MP and 18MP when stopped down a lot.
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:42 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:12 PM
p.12 #20Canon EOS 7D Master thread
M Vers wrote:
And so it is, you should know Remember you are the minority, Canon doesn't care about you or the other 1% of photographers who shoot MF more often than not, They won't loose sleep, let alone sales, because you can't use it with a Canon branded focus screen with one specific camera designed for action photography. They didn't implement a 19 pt. AF system in the 7D so you can MF better.
Ahhh, so since I am in the minority, my opinion doesn't matter?
Balls!
The 40D, 5D, and all the 1-Series have an S type screen option. Many pro photographers consider this an essential option. The 7D, a pro-caliber camera, does not include this option because Canon preferred to add some stupid electronic overlay to show AF points and grid lines.
Now, tell me, if most buyers of this camera will use it for it's AF abilities, how many will be switching the AF points off?
If most buyers of this camera are sports and BIF shooters, how many of them need a bloody grid in their VF?
I think it is simply a case of Canon designers getting a big boner for the fancy new, half-baked overlay feature, then realizing "oops, how do we offer different screen options?" "Uhhh, we just won't, but we'll market it in such a way that people think it's really friggin' cool."
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:20 PM · View previous versions
cogitech wrote
But ignorance is bliss, so if you want to go on believing that S type screens are unimportant, then by all means... Remember you are the minority, Canon doesn't care about you or the other 1% of photographers who shoot MF more often than not, They won't loose sleep, let alone sales, because you can't use it with a Canon branded focus screen with one specific camera designed for action photography. They didn't implement a 19 pt. AF system in the 7D so you can MF better.Ahhh, so since I am in the minority, my opinion doesn't matter?
Balls!
The 40D, 5D, and all the 1-Series have an S type screen option. Many pro photographers consider this an essential option. The 7D, a pro-caliber camera, does not include this option because Canon preferred to add some stupid electronic overlay to show AF points and grid lines.
Now, tell me, if most buyers of this camera will use it for it's AF abilities, how many will be switching the AF points off?
If most buyers of this camera are sports and BIF shooters, how many of them need a bloody grid in their VF?
I think it is simply a case of Canon designers getting a big boner for the fancy new, half-baked overlay feature, then realizing "oops, how do we offer different screen options?" "Uhhh, we just won't, but we'll market it in such a way that people think it's really friggin' cool."
Edited on Sep 02, 2009 at 02:20 PM · View previous versions
Sep 02, 2009 at 02:13 PM