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Archive 2009Canon 7D
p.34 #1Canon 7D
BINGO
seanbolton wrote:
I feel the 5D will remain Canon's entry level full frame offer. They will just keep lowering the price to keep it competitive, I am sure there is currently a huge margin for Canon in the 5dmk2.
As always Canon do 'just enough' with their cameras.
No doubt if the 1dMk4 remains at APS-H format it will be more to do with protecting the 1Ds full frame cash cow than satisfying customer demand.
Canon could knock out a $2000 Full frame camera with excellent AF, 5fps, video, etc right now if it needed too. But it doesn't so it won't.
Well done Sony for...Show more →
seanbolton wrote:
I feel the 5D will remain Canon's entry level full frame offer. They will just keep lowering the price to keep it competitive, I am sure there is currently a huge margin for Canon in the 5dmk2.
As always Canon do 'just enough' with their cameras.
No doubt if the 1dMk4 remains at APS-H format it will be more to do with protecting the 1Ds full frame cash cow than satisfying customer demand.
Canon could knock out a $2000 Full frame camera with excellent AF, 5fps, video, etc right now if it needed too. But it doesn't so it won't.
Well done Sony for...Show more →
Aug 27, 2009 at 01:25 PM
p.34 #2Canon 7D
seanbolton wrote:
I feel the 5D will remain Canon's entry level full frame offer. They will just keep lowering the price to keep it competitive, I am sure there is currently a huge margin for Canon in the 5dmk2.
As always Canon do 'just enough' with their cameras.
No doubt if the 1dMk4 remains at APS-H format it will be more to do with protecting the 1Ds full frame cash cow than satisfying customer demand.
Canon could knock out a $2000 Full frame camera with excellent AF, 5fps, video, etc right now if it needed too. But it doesn't so it won't.
Well done Sony for...Show more →
I agree entirely- since the 5D is already a budget full frame, I don't see any reason for Canon to go any more "budget" than it already is. However, offering a different feature set, at the same price and expense of perhaps resolution, is definitely a possibility. I quite frankly don't give about what Sony has to offer. In my mind there are really only two brands to choose from at this point if you want a complete system- and this will likely be for awhile. Certainly, the seasoned pros would never venture into the Sony system (though certainly there is churn between Canon and Nikon).
Despite Sony's recent advancements in the sensor area, the price of their lenses and also the lack of fast teles (300/2.8 is as good as it gets) will make it a very prohibitive system for most of us- and I really don't care how good their sensor, price point, or bodies are. They aren't designed with the professional in mind- rather, to capture the new DSLR user, and also the users that don't need pro lenses.
I feel the 5D will remain Canon's entry level full frame offer. They will just keep lowering the price to keep it competitive, I am sure there is currently a huge margin for Canon in the 5dmk2.
As always Canon do 'just enough' with their cameras.
No doubt if the 1dMk4 remains at APS-H format it will be more to do with protecting the 1Ds full frame cash cow than satisfying customer demand.
Canon could knock out a $2000 Full frame camera with excellent AF, 5fps, video, etc right now if it needed too. But it doesn't so it won't.
Well done Sony for...Show more →
I agree entirely- since the 5D is already a budget full frame, I don't see any reason for Canon to go any more "budget" than it already is. However, offering a different feature set, at the same price and expense of perhaps resolution, is definitely a possibility. I quite frankly don't give about what Sony has to offer. In my mind there are really only two brands to choose from at this point if you want a complete system- and this will likely be for awhile. Certainly, the seasoned pros would never venture into the Sony system (though certainly there is churn between Canon and Nikon).
Despite Sony's recent advancements in the sensor area, the price of their lenses and also the lack of fast teles (300/2.8 is as good as it gets) will make it a very prohibitive system for most of us- and I really don't care how good their sensor, price point, or bodies are. They aren't designed with the professional in mind- rather, to capture the new DSLR user, and also the users that don't need pro lenses.
Aug 27, 2009 at 01:46 PM
p.34 #3Canon 7D
M Vers wrote:
Agree.
But look at the specs. I'm very curious - is this really what the 'affordable FF' crowd is hoping/wishing for?
I mean a small (plastic?) FF body with 3 fps ?There are going to be some tough tradeoffs if people are expecting a FF body from Canon at or under 2K. Just look at the 5DII--great sensor, great size, not so great AF. Again offering a lot in one department and completely limiting another. FWIW I can't see Canon releasing another line of FF bodies, specifically a cheaper line and if they do you can bet it will be underwhelming.
One thing to note is that the Camera manufacturers have their own, secret business plans. Without accurate manufacturing costs, we can't determine what the business plans are. Canon may have thin margins, or the 5D2 may be their biggest cash cow yet. Who know? We can't say what is possible without any accurate information.
Without someone from Canon's manufacturing line here to fill us in on production costs, we can't make any accurate statement of what can and cannot be done. If there's one thing the DSLR market has shown us, the technology costs are decreasing radically. In the span of 9 years, we've seen dozens of DSLRs come and go from just Canon and Nikon. The D30 started at somewhere just below $3k for 3.1 mp and now you can buy a Rebel XS for $500 with 10mp.
With this in mind, it seems difficult to believe that the costs of the 5D2 aren't falling all the time or that the original 5D couldn't be produced at a fraction of the price. This points to the above that the 5D2 may just be a huge cash cow. If this is the case, it seems reasonable to assume that Canon is intentionally holding things back. Not that Canon cannot put in certain technologies (such as a faster processor or better AF), but they choose not to in order to inflate the worth of other items (namely, the 1 series). As I mentioned before, we can't make any determination without any accurate source, but I find it difficult to believe that the costs on the 5D series are stagnating.
orangefirefish wrote:
I agree entirely- since the 5D is already a budget full frame, I don't see any reason for Canon to go any more "budget" than it already is. However, offering a different feature set, at the same price and expense of perhaps resolution, is definitely a possibility. I quite frankly don't give about what Sony has to offer. In my mind there are really only two brands to choose from at this point if you want a complete system- and this will likely be for awhile. Certainly, the seasoned pros would never venture into the Sony system (though certainly there...Show more →
While Sony has a collection (albeit small) of fast, expensive lenses, I seriously doubt that they're trying too hard (at the moment) to cater to the professionals. They seem to be doing what they can to cater to the regular consumer. Moreover, the Sony cameras accept (Konica-)Minolta lenses, so it's not like the only available lenses are solely those that Sony has released recently. Minolta AF lenses have been around longer than EF lenses.
George.ML wrote
michael49 wrote
I find it interesting that so many here seem to persistently claim that a FF camera like this couldn't be offered at this price because of the sensor cost, but here it is.But look at the specs. I'm very curious - is this really what the 'affordable FF' crowd is hoping/wishing for?
I mean a small (plastic?) FF body with 3 fps ?
One thing to note is that the Camera manufacturers have their own, secret business plans. Without accurate manufacturing costs, we can't determine what the business plans are. Canon may have thin margins, or the 5D2 may be their biggest cash cow yet. Who know? We can't say what is possible without any accurate information.
Without someone from Canon's manufacturing line here to fill us in on production costs, we can't make any accurate statement of what can and cannot be done. If there's one thing the DSLR market has shown us, the technology costs are decreasing radically. In the span of 9 years, we've seen dozens of DSLRs come and go from just Canon and Nikon. The D30 started at somewhere just below $3k for 3.1 mp and now you can buy a Rebel XS for $500 with 10mp.
With this in mind, it seems difficult to believe that the costs of the 5D2 aren't falling all the time or that the original 5D couldn't be produced at a fraction of the price. This points to the above that the 5D2 may just be a huge cash cow. If this is the case, it seems reasonable to assume that Canon is intentionally holding things back. Not that Canon cannot put in certain technologies (such as a faster processor or better AF), but they choose not to in order to inflate the worth of other items (namely, the 1 series). As I mentioned before, we can't make any determination without any accurate source, but I find it difficult to believe that the costs on the 5D series are stagnating.
orangefirefish wrote:
I agree entirely- since the 5D is already a budget full frame, I don't see any reason for Canon to go any more "budget" than it already is. However, offering a different feature set, at the same price and expense of perhaps resolution, is definitely a possibility. I quite frankly don't give about what Sony has to offer. In my mind there are really only two brands to choose from at this point if you want a complete system- and this will likely be for awhile. Certainly, the seasoned pros would never venture into the Sony system (though certainly there...Show more →
While Sony has a collection (albeit small) of fast, expensive lenses, I seriously doubt that they're trying too hard (at the moment) to cater to the professionals. They seem to be doing what they can to cater to the regular consumer. Moreover, the Sony cameras accept (Konica-)Minolta lenses, so it's not like the only available lenses are solely those that Sony has released recently. Minolta AF lenses have been around longer than EF lenses.
Aug 27, 2009 at 01:53 PM
p.34 #4Canon 7D
roanjohnnyc wrote:
did nikon go under while i was away?No.......... but Nikon don't have f1.2 on their current line-up........... 
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.
However, Nikon needs to get a 35 f/1.4 AF-S, bring back the legendary 28 f/1.4 and maybe update the 85 f/1.4 to AF-S.
abam wrote
"Canon is the only one that makes fast prime."did nikon go under while i was away?
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.
However, Nikon needs to get a 35 f/1.4 AF-S, bring back the legendary 28 f/1.4 and maybe update the 85 f/1.4 to AF-S.
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:34 PM
p.34 #5Canon 7D
pgriedl wrote:
Since when do $2700 and $2200 equal $5900? Going by the math I was taught, $2700+$2200=$4900.
Well you see he was using the Ma and Pa Kettle math.
Since when do $2700 and $2200 equal $5900? Going by the math I was taught, $2700+$2200=$4900.
Well you see he was using the Ma and Pa Kettle math.
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:35 PM
p.34 #6Canon 7D
The countdown begins. Five more days .... those who know are dead silent.
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:38 PM
p.34 #7Canon 7D
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.
Hmmm, I thought there were two: 85/1.2 and the 50/1.2....which one isn't really f/1.2?
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.
Hmmm, I thought there were two: 85/1.2 and the 50/1.2....which one isn't really f/1.2?
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:43 PM
p.34 #8Canon 7D
5dmk2 is a budget FF 
I guess compared to a 1dsmk3..then again there is a 4500.00 gap between the 2 hmmm.So if Canon was to bring out a cheaper priced FF
say 7D alas with less features people would go nuts...and there should be a gap
filled on the otherside of the 5dmk2 and the 1dsmk3...a 3d FF with 1d specs..
this is their only options IMHO
I guess compared to a 1dsmk3..then again there is a 4500.00 gap between the 2 hmmm.So if Canon was to bring out a cheaper priced FFsay 7D alas with less features people would go nuts...and there should be a gap
filled on the otherside of the 5dmk2 and the 1dsmk3...a 3d FF with 1d specs..
this is their only options IMHO
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:45 PM
p.34 #9Canon 7D
It seems Canon's competitors are giving us what we have been asking for years. First, Nikon D300 with pro AF on a crop bodies and high fps. Now, Sony is giving us the affordable FF at $2K. If A850 were released by Canon, I am sure the pre-order waiting list will be very very long.
Aug 27, 2009 at 05:46 PM
p.34 #10Canon 7D
Sony should just make an a850 with a Canon or Nikon mount. That should level the fields a little. :P
Aug 27, 2009 at 06:09 PM
p.34 #11Canon 7D
M Vers wrote:
Hmmm, I thought there were two: 85/1.2 and the 50/1.2....which one isn't really f/1.2?
Oops, pretty sad as I was going to buy the 50 and I've already forgotten about it.
Ok but apart from those two what have the Roman's ever given us.
Pixel Perfect wrote
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.Oops, pretty sad as I was going to buy the 50 and I've already forgotten about it.
Ok but apart from those two what have the Roman's ever given us.
Aug 27, 2009 at 06:15 PM
p.34 #12Canon 7D
M Vers wrote:
There are going to be some tough tradeoffs if people are expecting a FF body from Canon at or under 2K. Just look at the 5DII--great sensor, great size, not so great AF. Again offering a lot in one department and completely limiting another. FWIW I can't see Canon releasing another line of FF bodies, specifically a cheaper line and if they do you can bet it will be underwhelming.
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism. As discussed here before, Canon could have used the 1d2/1ds2 AF system without too much incremental cost- after all any AF system, including the original 5D's, would have been brand new to the 5D mark II, and would have required a brand new mechanisms for installation, new firmware coding, AF sensor implementation, and rigorous testing.
There are going to be some tough tradeoffs if people are expecting a FF body from Canon at or under 2K. Just look at the 5DII--great sensor, great size, not so great AF. Again offering a lot in one department and completely limiting another. FWIW I can't see Canon releasing another line of FF bodies, specifically a cheaper line and if they do you can bet it will be underwhelming.
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism. As discussed here before, Canon could have used the 1d2/1ds2 AF system without too much incremental cost- after all any AF system, including the original 5D's, would have been brand new to the 5D mark II, and would have required a brand new mechanisms for installation, new firmware coding, AF sensor implementation, and rigorous testing.
Aug 27, 2009 at 06:32 PM
p.34 #13Canon 7D
orangefirefish wrote:
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism.
Oh, for sure. But they could have just as easily implemented an updated AF system without contending directly with 1-series bodies. It was/is a win win for them.
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism.
Oh, for sure. But they could have just as easily implemented an updated AF system without contending directly with 1-series bodies. It was/is a win win for them.
Aug 27, 2009 at 06:36 PM
p.34 #14Canon 7D
Pixel Perfect wrote:
Hmmm, I thought there were two: 85/1.2 and the 50/1.2....which one isn't really f/1.2?Oops, pretty sad as I was going to buy the 50 and I've already forgotten about it.
Ok but apart from those two what have the Roman's ever given us.
figured that 
M Vers wrote
Pixel Perfect wrote
Canon only has one f/1.2 BTW.Ok but apart from those two what have the Roman's ever given us.
figured that Aug 27, 2009 at 06:37 PM
p.34 #15Canon 7D
henryng wrote:
It seems Canon's competitors are giving us what we have been asking for years. First, Nikon D300 with pro AF on a crop bodies and high fps. Now, Sony is giving us the affordable FF at $2K. If A850 were released by Canon, I am sure the pre-order waiting list will be very very long.
True true. A similar spec-ed camera badged Canon (Even with 16 mpx) - would be hailed and praised in this forum. Too bad it said Sony.
It seems Canon's competitors are giving us what we have been asking for years. First, Nikon D300 with pro AF on a crop bodies and high fps. Now, Sony is giving us the affordable FF at $2K. If A850 were released by Canon, I am sure the pre-order waiting list will be very very long.
True true. A similar spec-ed camera badged Canon (Even with 16 mpx) - would be hailed and praised in this forum. Too bad it said Sony.
Aug 27, 2009 at 07:22 PM
p.34 #16Canon 7D
orangefirefish wrote:
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism.
More like a strategy, I would say.
Canon surely has a roadmap for future models and the 5DII fits in this roadmap in a palce where a FF camera without an advanced AF fits.
When the time comes, the 7D tech will surely end up in a FF model.
Then the bitching will start that it's too expensive .
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism.
More like a strategy, I would say.
Canon surely has a roadmap for future models and the 5DII fits in this roadmap in a palce where a FF camera without an advanced AF fits.
When the time comes, the 7D tech will surely end up in a FF model.
Then the bitching will start that it's too expensive
. Aug 27, 2009 at 07:32 PM
p.34 #17Canon 7D
George.ML wrote:
More like a strategy, I would say.
Canon surely has a roadmap for future models and the 5DII fits in this roadmap in a palce where a FF camera without an advanced AF fits.
When the time comes, the 7D tech will surely end up in a FF model.
Then the bitching will start that it's too expensive .
Canon is very good selling you very little improvement for a lot of cash. They will give you a killer feature or few improvements and hold back on many things which only available in their 1 series. That is how they do business and you only get those if you pay top dollar for their 1 series which is quite over-priced. As long as we as consumers allow Canon and keep buying their cameras, they will continue to do so. It is just business. I am sure Canon is making a big fat margin with the 5D2 given it is not a low volume DSLR like their 1 series.
orangefirefish wrote
I honestly don't think that the AF system was a cost compromise, as much as it was a tactic employed by the very risk-averse Canon to avoid cannibalism.Canon surely has a roadmap for future models and the 5DII fits in this roadmap in a palce where a FF camera without an advanced AF fits.
When the time comes, the 7D tech will surely end up in a FF model.
Then the bitching will start that it's too expensive
. Canon is very good selling you very little improvement for a lot of cash. They will give you a killer feature or few improvements and hold back on many things which only available in their 1 series. That is how they do business and you only get those if you pay top dollar for their 1 series which is quite over-priced. As long as we as consumers allow Canon and keep buying their cameras, they will continue to do so. It is just business. I am sure Canon is making a big fat margin with the 5D2 given it is not a low volume DSLR like their 1 series.
Aug 27, 2009 at 07:49 PM
p.34 #18Canon 7D
skibum5 wrote:
no, the xxD have much faster mirror/shutter/many more fps
the 5 series are rebels with FF sensors....
...
.....
Are you serious? Wow, my 5D must have been a waste. Shoulda bought a few XTi's and called it a day.
EOS20 wrote
Isn't the 5 series already just a XXD series camera with a full framed sensor and no pop up flash?the 5 series are rebels with FF sensors....
...
.....
Are you serious? Wow, my 5D must have been a waste. Shoulda bought a few XTi's and called it a day.
Aug 27, 2009 at 07:59 PM
p.34 #19Canon 7D
RobertLynn wrote:
no, the xxD have much faster mirror/shutter/many more fps
the 5 series are rebels with FF sensors.......
.....
Are you serious? Wow, my 5D must have been a waste. Shoulda bought a few XTi's and called it a day.
i didn't say it was a waste or that it WAS an XTi I said it was a Rebel WITH A FF SENSOR.
and it is body performance-wise in many respects.
3fps, longgg mirror blackout, long (compared to top DSLR) shutter delay
granted the AF was better and the bod specs are mostly a TAD above rebels, but below, to far below xxD or 1 series.
you can't seriously claim the 5D was a high spec body can you? other than in terms of the sensor
skibum5 wrote
EOS20 wrote
Isn't the 5 series already just a XXD series camera with a full framed sensor and no pop up flash?the 5 series are rebels with FF sensors....
.....
Are you serious? Wow, my 5D must have been a waste. Shoulda bought a few XTi's and called it a day.
i didn't say it was a waste or that it WAS an XTi I said it was a Rebel WITH A FF SENSOR.
and it is body performance-wise in many respects.
3fps, longgg mirror blackout, long (compared to top DSLR) shutter delay
granted the AF was better and the bod specs are mostly a TAD above rebels, but below, to far below xxD or 1 series.
you can't seriously claim the 5D was a high spec body can you? other than in terms of the sensor
Aug 27, 2009 at 11:15 PM
p.34 #20Canon 7D
pgriedl wrote:
Since when do $2700 and $2200 equal $5900? Going by the math I was taught, $2700+$2200=$4900.
nonsense!
Edited on Aug 27, 2009 at 11:25 PM · View previous versions
Since when do $2700 and $2200 equal $5900? Going by the math I was taught, $2700+$2200=$4900.
nonsense!
Edited on Aug 27, 2009 at 11:25 PM · View previous versions
Aug 27, 2009 at 11:19 PM