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Archive 2009Canon 7D
p.30 #1Canon 7D
Zara wrote:
well, I guess Chuck had to say something to defend their AF decision. It still sounds a lot like marketing BS to me. I can't imagine that it was no problem whatsoever to include a sensor shaker (which increases sensor dimensions by quite a bit) but the AF sensor all of a sudden is the deal breaker. I'm convinced that the decision to stay with an outdated AF system was a very conscious one, and not for the reasons given above.
We should organize a conspiracy theorist's group here. We could even have a simi annual conference preceding the release of new camera gear. Just remember, it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
well, I guess Chuck had to say something to defend their AF decision. It still sounds a lot like marketing BS to me. I can't imagine that it was no problem whatsoever to include a sensor shaker (which increases sensor dimensions by quite a bit) but the AF sensor all of a sudden is the deal breaker. I'm convinced that the decision to stay with an outdated AF system was a very conscious one, and not for the reasons given above.
We should organize a conspiracy theorist's group here. We could even have a simi annual conference preceding the release of new camera gear. Just remember, it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
Aug 26, 2009 at 08:43 AM
p.30 #2Canon 7D
32067dlm wrote:
We should organize a conspiracy theorist's group here. We could even have a simi annual conference preceding the release of new camera gear. Just remember, it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
Does it count if they are after my money?
I don't see a conspiracy, I just know form personal involvement on a professional level that marketing and communication departments tend to have an agenda when they release a statement.
In any case, you are right, the 5DmkII is a real product and many people take brilliant pictures with it every day. I guess 640KB of RAM is all our computers will ever need.
We should organize a conspiracy theorist's group here. We could even have a simi annual conference preceding the release of new camera gear. Just remember, it's not paranoia if they're really after you.
Does it count if they are after my money?
I don't see a conspiracy, I just know form personal involvement on a professional level that marketing and communication departments tend to have an agenda when they release a statement.
In any case, you are right, the 5DmkII is a real product and many people take brilliant pictures with it every day. I guess 640KB of RAM is all our computers will ever need.
Aug 26, 2009 at 08:57 AM
p.30 #3Canon 7D
AaronNegro wrote:
I like the idea of a 7D name for the actual XXD series but I wonder where the XXXD series would be gone to.
About specs, if it is APSC with the AF improved and 1/2 stop ISO improvement I would be already VERY happy whatever the MP count would be.
I would like the HDR feature taken from Pentax and the eye control focus plus the 2.8/3 inch G11 kind to be added to the list. I like the power switch change I saw in the picture posted from engadget too.
My prediction:
APS-C sensor 15 MP (improved)
Digic 5
HD video 1080p
AF 13 2.8...Show more →
Aaron,
I would buy one of your Canon cameras. Any chance we can get you into a decision making role there?
I like the idea of a 7D name for the actual XXD series but I wonder where the XXXD series would be gone to.
About specs, if it is APSC with the AF improved and 1/2 stop ISO improvement I would be already VERY happy whatever the MP count would be.
I would like the HDR feature taken from Pentax and the eye control focus plus the 2.8/3 inch G11 kind to be added to the list. I like the power switch change I saw in the picture posted from engadget too.
My prediction:
APS-C sensor 15 MP (improved)
Digic 5
HD video 1080p
AF 13 2.8...Show more →
Aaron,
I would buy one of your Canon cameras. Any chance we can get you into a decision making role there?
Aug 26, 2009 at 09:00 AM
p.30 #4Canon 7D
Zara wrote:
I'm convinced that the decision to stay with an outdated AF system was a very conscious one, and not for the reasons given above.
I suppose it is possible that Canon intentionally left the 5DmII with an underwhelming AF in order to allow a gap in the lineup for the 7D:
1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast standpoint. The advanced amateurs want FF, but they want do-it-all. That is part of the success of the D700. And this lineup would not have an answer.
Edited on Aug 26, 2009 at 09:17 AM · View previous versions
I'm convinced that the decision to stay with an outdated AF system was a very conscious one, and not for the reasons given above.
I suppose it is possible that Canon intentionally left the 5DmII with an underwhelming AF in order to allow a gap in the lineup for the 7D:
1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast standpoint. The advanced amateurs want FF, but they want do-it-all. That is part of the success of the D700. And this lineup would not have an answer.
Edited on Aug 26, 2009 at 09:17 AM · View previous versions
Aug 26, 2009 at 09:01 AM
p.30 #5Canon 7D
Zara wrote:
I guess 640KB of RAM is all our computers will ever need.
Hey, when did that become available? I'm still at 512k, but I'm dreaming of the day when I can upgrade to 1MB! Just imagine a computer that could display 256 colors at the same time!
I guess 640KB of RAM is all our computers will ever need.
Hey, when did that become available? I'm still at 512k, but I'm dreaming of the day when I can upgrade to 1MB! Just imagine a computer that could display 256 colors at the same time!
Aug 26, 2009 at 09:01 AM
p.30 #6Canon 7D
ScooberJake wrote:
I suppose it is possible that Canon intentionally left the 5DmII with an underwhelming AF in order to allow a gap in the lineup for the 7D:
1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast...Show more →
I generally agree. And coincidentally a D700 type of camera would best fit my personal (enthusiast) needs - more or less. Too bad Nikon doesn't have the glass I want but that's a different story.
OTOH, the reincarnation of the 5D was certainly groundbreaking in offering the resolution it does at the price it does. If you primarily shoot stationary subjects the 5DmkII seems like a truckload of a bang for the buck.
I'm sure a similar (non-FF) camera on the grounds of AF/FPS at a similar price point would be equally successful and - as you point out - go well with the overall product philosophy Canon has been showing.
It seems that the upper product tiers are relegated to specialize in either speed or resolution while the "jack of all trades" type of body is relegated to the xxD series and below, albeit with a small sensor.
I don't think we'll see this product philosophy change in the near future - which means that a 3D type of camera (FF and pro AF in a prosumer body), if Canon ever makes it, will be set at a price point significantly above the 5D.
My hopes are on the 5DmkII successor to provide reasonably spec'd peripheral AF points (a la 50D) which would be sufficient for my uses. A 7D type camera with a 1.3x sensor may tie me over until then...
I suppose it is possible that Canon intentionally left the 5DmII with an underwhelming AF in order to allow a gap in the lineup for the 7D:
1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast...Show more →
I generally agree. And coincidentally a D700 type of camera would best fit my personal (enthusiast) needs - more or less. Too bad Nikon doesn't have the glass I want but that's a different story.
OTOH, the reincarnation of the 5D was certainly groundbreaking in offering the resolution it does at the price it does. If you primarily shoot stationary subjects the 5DmkII seems like a truckload of a bang for the buck.
I'm sure a similar (non-FF) camera on the grounds of AF/FPS at a similar price point would be equally successful and - as you point out - go well with the overall product philosophy Canon has been showing.
It seems that the upper product tiers are relegated to specialize in either speed or resolution while the "jack of all trades" type of body is relegated to the xxD series and below, albeit with a small sensor.
I don't think we'll see this product philosophy change in the near future - which means that a 3D type of camera (FF and pro AF in a prosumer body), if Canon ever makes it, will be set at a price point significantly above the 5D.
My hopes are on the 5DmkII successor to provide reasonably spec'd peripheral AF points (a la 50D) which would be sufficient for my uses. A 7D type camera with a 1.3x sensor may tie me over until then...
Aug 26, 2009 at 09:39 AM
p.30 #7Canon 7D
M Vers wrote:
AKA--It would cost too much for us to implement an updated AF system in the 5DII, so we took the same system from the 5D, recycled it, and used it to save us a bunch of money. We tell everyone that they like it, and a lot of people actually believe us. For those who didn't like it, we made sure not to interview them
Or maybe, "it would have increased the cost of the 5D2 too much and we could not have shipped such a high resolution full frame camera with HD video at this breakthrough price point."
AKA--It would cost too much for us to implement an updated AF system in the 5DII, so we took the same system from the 5D, recycled it, and used it to save us a bunch of money. We tell everyone that they like it, and a lot of people actually believe us. For those who didn't like it, we made sure not to interview them
Or maybe, "it would have increased the cost of the 5D2 too much and we could not have shipped such a high resolution full frame camera with HD video at this breakthrough price point."
Aug 26, 2009 at 10:07 AM
p.30 #8Canon 7D
xxD Enthusiast can become a more affordable Full Frame in 2010. The longer the 60D is not announced - assuming 7D = second tier pro/enthusiast sports - the more sense that dim possibility remains.
with the lineup below the 60D makes no sense as a 1.5x crop $1199 body deeply discounted. Given the fact that the 40D remained on canon USA's website for a year after the 50D shipped you gotta wonder if the xxD line just should be put on hiatus for a while as Canon regroups. How many more redundant bodies does canon expect to sell an "enthusiast" xxD. Video or not there is little compelling in a 50D w/ video. Not to the pros and not to the soccer moms (too big a body vs a rebel or other digicam)
ScooberJake wrote:
I suppose it is possible that Canon intentionally left the 5DmII with an underwhelming AF in order to allow a gap in the lineup for the 7D:
1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast...Show more →
with the lineup below the 60D makes no sense as a 1.5x crop $1199 body deeply discounted. Given the fact that the 40D remained on canon USA's website for a year after the 50D shipped you gotta wonder if the xxD line just should be put on hiatus for a while as Canon regroups. How many more redundant bodies does canon expect to sell an "enthusiast" xxD. Video or not there is little compelling in a 50D w/ video. Not to the pros and not to the soccer moms (too big a body vs a rebel or other digicam)
ScooberJake wrote:
Zara wrote
I'm convinced that the decision to stay with an outdated AF system was a very conscious one, and not for the reasons given above.1Ds - Premium pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
1D - Premium pro sports camera
5D - 2nd tier pro hi-rez portrait and landscape camera
7D - 2nd tier pro sports camera
xxD - Enthusiast
xxxD - Consumer
That lineup makes a lot of sense from a pro standpoint. You pick the tool you need. Plus gives you a nice (cheaper) backup option if your main camera is a 1-series.
However, it doesn't make a lot of sense from an enthusiast...Show more →
Aug 26, 2009 at 10:30 AM
p.30 #9Canon 7D
Glen_C wrote:
xxD Enthusiast can become a more affordable Full Frame in 2010. The longer the 60D is not announced - assuming 7D = second tier pro/enthusiast sports - the more sense that dim possibility remains.
with the lineup below the 60D makes no sense as a 1.5x crop $1199 body deeply discounted. Given the fact that the 40D remained on canon USA's website for a year after the 50D shipped you gotta wonder if the xxD line just should be put on hiatus for a while as Canon regroups. How many more redundant bodies does canon expect to sell an "enthusiast" xxD....Show more →
Well, an affordable xxD full frame sounds great to me. But I guess it seems like a pipe dream.
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a rebel and a 5D. I can't imagine Canon leaving that empty. If the reported prices of the 7D are correct, then I expect that gap to be filled with a 60D, whether now or sometime next year.
xxD Enthusiast can become a more affordable Full Frame in 2010. The longer the 60D is not announced - assuming 7D = second tier pro/enthusiast sports - the more sense that dim possibility remains.
with the lineup below the 60D makes no sense as a 1.5x crop $1199 body deeply discounted. Given the fact that the 40D remained on canon USA's website for a year after the 50D shipped you gotta wonder if the xxD line just should be put on hiatus for a while as Canon regroups. How many more redundant bodies does canon expect to sell an "enthusiast" xxD....Show more →
Well, an affordable xxD full frame sounds great to me. But I guess it seems like a pipe dream.
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a rebel and a 5D. I can't imagine Canon leaving that empty. If the reported prices of the 7D are correct, then I expect that gap to be filled with a 60D, whether now or sometime next year.
Aug 26, 2009 at 11:53 AM
p.30 #10Canon 7D
ScooberJake wrote:
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a...Show more →
I agree. From a business perspective, I can't imagine what a 7D would be. There are tons of pros who use the xxD and the 5D series cameras, but Canon has never considered either of them a pro camera.
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a...Show more →
I agree. From a business perspective, I can't imagine what a 7D would be. There are tons of pros who use the xxD and the 5D series cameras, but Canon has never considered either of them a pro camera.
Aug 26, 2009 at 12:04 PM
p.30 #11Canon 7D
The price difference between the Nikon D300 and D700 is ~$1000. The only difference between the two is the sensor - 1.5x vs FF.
The 50D was $1400 at announcement time.
If Canon charges the same $1K premium for FF as Nikon, we'd have a $2400 camera with the exact same specs as the 50D but with a FF sensor.
So there you have it - that's what an xxD camera with a FF sensor would sell for.
But wait, isn't this price close to what the 5DII is selling for?
Having said that, I agree with everybody who thinks that Canon (and Nikon) should not charge $1000 premium for the FF sensor. Agree 100%
The 50D was $1400 at announcement time.
If Canon charges the same $1K premium for FF as Nikon, we'd have a $2400 camera with the exact same specs as the 50D but with a FF sensor.
So there you have it - that's what an xxD camera with a FF sensor would sell for.
But wait, isn't this price close to what the 5DII is selling for?
Having said that, I agree with everybody who thinks that Canon (and Nikon) should not charge $1000 premium for the FF sensor. Agree 100%
Aug 26, 2009 at 12:17 PM
p.30 #12Canon 7D
32067dlm wrote:
One of the coolest features about the 5DII is that it is a real camera. Right now, people are out in the world taking real pictures with it.
Which is why Im debating the 1D3 and 5D2 vs the new announced camera. I can get one of them before Halloween (well maybe not the 5D2, but thats a supply issue)
One of the coolest features about the 5DII is that it is a real camera. Right now, people are out in the world taking real pictures with it.
Which is why Im debating the 1D3 and 5D2 vs the new announced camera. I can get one of them before Halloween (well maybe not the 5D2, but thats a supply issue)
Aug 26, 2009 at 12:24 PM
p.30 #13Canon 7D
Isn't the 5 series already just a XXD series camera with a full framed sensor and no pop up flash?
Aug 26, 2009 at 12:32 PM
p.30 #14Canon 7D
EOS20 wrote:
Isn't the 5 series already just a XXD series camera with a full framed sensor and no pop up flash?
Isn't the XXD series just a Rebel with a larger body and higher ISO?
Isn't the 5 series already just a XXD series camera with a full framed sensor and no pop up flash?
Isn't the XXD series just a Rebel with a larger body and higher ISO?
Aug 26, 2009 at 12:33 PM
p.30 #15Canon 7D
ScooberJake wrote:
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a...Show more →
right now you can get 50D from authorized dealers for ~$1150. That creates a $1550 gap between 50D & 5DmkII ($2699) which is the next model up
quite absurd marketing strategy imho.
Agree that a 50D w/video is not of much interest to a pro (esp if our suspicions of the 7D are correct) or the typical soccer mom. But the xxD line isn't aimed at those people. It is aimed at the soccer mom who feels that her rebel is inadequate (fps, focusing, etc.) or just wants something better than what the other soccer moms are using. And it is aimed at the enthusiast who wants to move up from a rebel, but can't stomach the pricetag of a 1D or even a 5D.
There is a large price gap between a...Show more →
right now you can get 50D from authorized dealers for ~$1150. That creates a $1550 gap between 50D & 5DmkII ($2699) which is the next model up
quite absurd marketing strategy imho.
Aug 26, 2009 at 01:25 PM
p.30 #16Canon 7D
kahren wrote:
they need to kill 1.3x already
Depends - if it can get me speed and features for a reasonable price, I'm in favor of keeping the 1.3X. It's a compromise in some ways to the full frame bodies, but it's one that I'm willing to make.
they need to kill 1.3x already
Depends - if it can get me speed and features for a reasonable price, I'm in favor of keeping the 1.3X. It's a compromise in some ways to the full frame bodies, but it's one that I'm willing to make.
Aug 26, 2009 at 01:43 PM
p.30 #17Canon 7D
Tom_W wrote:
Depends - if it can get me speed and features for a reasonable price, I'm in favor of keeping the 1.3X. It's a compromise in some ways to the full frame bodies, but it's one that I'm willing to make.
Nikon's approach of a software crop may be a more viable solution. A full frame camera for when you need it and a 1.3 or 1.6 crop for added speed.
If we are to assume a 25mp sensor (just a number that is greater than both Nikon's and Canon's highest resolution sensors), a full frame sensor (864mm^2) would have 28935.2pixels per mm^2. Thus, a 1.3 software crop (548mm^2) would have an effective resolution of 15.9mp (+/- .1 mp) and a 1.6 software crop (329mm^2) would have an effective resolution of 9.5mp (+/- .1mp).
I doubt many people would argue that those numbers are bad at all. I think the biggest obstacle would be the viewfinder (and potential noise issues at high sensitivity).
Edited on Aug 26, 2009 at 01:53 PM · View previous versions
kahren wrote
they need to kill 1.3x alreadyNikon's approach of a software crop may be a more viable solution. A full frame camera for when you need it and a 1.3 or 1.6 crop for added speed.
If we are to assume a 25mp sensor (just a number that is greater than both Nikon's and Canon's highest resolution sensors), a full frame sensor (864mm^2) would have 28935.2pixels per mm^2. Thus, a 1.3 software crop (548mm^2) would have an effective resolution of 15.9mp (+/- .1 mp) and a 1.6 software crop (329mm^2) would have an effective resolution of 9.5mp (+/- .1mp).
I doubt many people would argue that those numbers are bad at all. I think the biggest obstacle would be the viewfinder (and potential noise issues at high sensitivity).
Edited on Aug 26, 2009 at 01:53 PM · View previous versions
Aug 26, 2009 at 01:46 PM
p.30 #18Canon 7D
"That creates a $1550 gap between 50D & 5DmkII ($2699) which is the next model up...quite absurd marketing strategy imho."
so how many cameras should plug the $3000 gap between the 1d3 and 1Ds3?
so how many cameras should plug the $3000 gap between the 1d3 and 1Ds3?
Aug 26, 2009 at 01:46 PM
p.30 #19Canon 7D
roanjohnnyc wrote:
Whatever Yakim
Hah!!
http://www.pbase.com/photosbytom/image/116548356/original.jpg
Whatever Yakim
Hah!!
http://www.pbase.com/photosbytom/image/116548356/original.jpg
Aug 26, 2009 at 01:54 PM
Aug 26, 2009 at 02:38 PM