This topic is in the 2009 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2009Canon 7D
p.21 #1Canon 7D
I like the idea of a 7D name for the actual XXD series but I wonder where the XXXD series would be gone to.
About specs, if it is APSC with the AF improved and 1/2 stop ISO improvement I would be already VERY happy whatever the MP count would be.
I would like the HDR feature taken from Pentax and the eye control focus plus the 2.8/3 inch G11 kind to be added to the list. I like the power switch change I saw in the picture posted from engadget too.
My prediction:
APS-C sensor 15 MP (improved)
Digic 5
HD video 1080p
AF 13 2.8 crossed with no assist points
3" VGA oled swivel screen
Increased DR to 12.5
1/2 stop better ISO and up to 25600 with lower noise also at lower ISO
AF micro adjust
HDR "incamera"
improved sensor cleaning system
Real Weather sealing
Price tag $1500 to 1700
About specs, if it is APSC with the AF improved and 1/2 stop ISO improvement I would be already VERY happy whatever the MP count would be.
I would like the HDR feature taken from Pentax and the eye control focus plus the 2.8/3 inch G11 kind to be added to the list. I like the power switch change I saw in the picture posted from engadget too.
My prediction:
APS-C sensor 15 MP (improved)
Digic 5
HD video 1080p
AF 13 2.8 crossed with no assist points
3" VGA oled swivel screen
Increased DR to 12.5
1/2 stop better ISO and up to 25600 with lower noise also at lower ISO
AF micro adjust
HDR "incamera"
improved sensor cleaning system
Real Weather sealing
Price tag $1500 to 1700
Aug 22, 2009 at 04:11 AM
p.21 #2Canon 7D
32067dlm wrote:
I am 100% certain that some of these specs will be found in Canon's next camera!
So [compiling all of the specs being thrown about mean that the 7D] could look like this:
AWESOME!
+1, and you can't convince me otherwise.
I am 100% certain that some of these specs will be found in Canon's next camera!
So [compiling all of the specs being thrown about mean that the 7D] could look like this:
- 12 - 21 MP
- At least one Digic III, IV, or V processor
- 13-19 AF points
- 3.9 - 8 FPS
- High resolution OLED display (or not)
- ISO 50 - 25600
- Pop up flash (or not)
- Full, 1.3, or 1.6 crop
AWESOME!
+1, and you can't convince me otherwise.
Aug 22, 2009 at 04:26 AM
p.21 #3Canon 7D
Maybe canon will add the new 1.44 crop sensor or 16:9 format.
Aug 22, 2009 at 07:49 AM
p.21 #4Canon 7D
32067dlm wrote:
All of these specs for one camera. Wow, this should satisfiy everyone. I am 100% certain that some of these specs will be found in Canon's next camera! So compiled it could look like this;
AWESOME!
You forgot: it will have at least one direct print button
All of these specs for one camera. Wow, this should satisfiy everyone. I am 100% certain that some of these specs will be found in Canon's next camera! So compiled it could look like this;
- 12 - 21 MP
- At least one Digic III, IV, or V processor
- 13-19 AF points
- 3.9 - 8 FPS
- High resolution OLED display (or not)
- ISO 50 - 25600
- Pop up flash (or not)
- Full, 1.3, or 1.6 crop
AWESOME!
You forgot: it will have at least one direct print button
Aug 22, 2009 at 08:36 AM
p.21 #5Canon 7D
Don Clary wrote:
Concerning the 5DII:
Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.www.nowinstock.net reports present availability for cameras. I don't need Canon 5DII sales numbers to realize that 5DII monthly sales in August 2009 are vastly lower than they were in December 2008, when it was first introduced. In December 2008, on average, two to three of the major retailers out of ten had 5DII in stock. Today as I write this, zero of 10 major retailers have 5DII in stock.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not read the entire thread, however if you're going to attack someone's point of view as a "fantasy," I'd think you'd at least have the courtesy to have read all of that person's posts.
The problem with www.nowinstock.net is that they are only surveying major Internet dealers. While it's valuable information for people who intend to purchase from one of those dealers, it is a fatal error of information analysis to believe it provides a meaningful statistic.
One of the things I noted in one of these threads six months ago was that Canon's distribution of the 5D2 and the LP-E6 battery has been "shallow but wide." In years before, Canon shipped large supplies of product to the largest retailers first and small retailers had to wait half a year or more after a product was introduced to see their first box.
But since at least the release of the 5D2, small retailers started getting a consistent trickle of product from the very beginning--and large retailers have been getting not much more. For instance, I had no trouble getting two 5D2 cameras and several extra LP-E6 batteries in January just by placing orders in a couple of small stores and waiting two weeks.
This is also borne out in this blog by a rental center representative, who believes that Canon is taking a deliberate effort to keep the "Wal-Mart" effect from putting its destiny in the hands of a few major retailers: http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2009.04.24/state-of-the-slr-industry-2009
I have written in this thread that Canon is doing the same thing as most manufacturers-- reducing manufacturing capacity in fear of the current economic downturn. They are certainly not increasing capacity. The primary expense of a company is usually labor, and a reduction of expenses looks on the books like an increase in profits ("A penny saved is a penny earned").
They can't guarantee more sales in this environment, but they can guarantee reduced expenses by laying off workers and eliminating assembly lines. That's what an auto plant in my town has done (despite the fact that the company's overall sales are still fairly good). That's what Canon has been doing.
I will amend my statement that you quoted: Until the global economy shows signs of permanent improvement, Canon is unlikely to increase production capacity regardless of momentary demand.
You attribute this to special devious maliciousness on the part of Canon. I see this happening everywhere. For instance, do you recall the national issue in the US a few years ago over the inability to get armor for Army HumVee vehicles in Iraq quickly enough? Because of the overall reduction in production capacity in the entire US (something I'd noted had begun adversely affecting national defense back in the mid-90s), there was only one supplier for that armor, and that supplier was not going to increase production capacity for a short-term demand (a budget appropriation lasting only one fiscal year).
Not many (if any) major manufacturers right now are going to open new floorspace, order new production equipment, or hire new workers, even if there is a demand. Not right now, probably not this year, maybe not next year. Canon is not, Nikon is not, Sony is not. It's just as hard to get some Nikon items as it is to get some Canon items.
What they will do is rotate production lines through the smaller capacity they currently have. For instance, they will make a short production run of one lens model, then shift that assembly line make another short production run of another model. So there will be periods of availability and periods that a lens is out of stock. That's exactly what the auto plant in my town is doing, too.
We know for a fact that Canon has shelved plans for a new plant and has dismissed at least 1000 Japanese workers, so they have reduced capacity even down from what they had when the 5D2 was initially released.
If Canon is planning to release a new xxD camera soon, I expect they've temporarily shifted their consumer capacity to support that camera and whichever other consumer camera provides the most profit (which is not necessarily the camera that has the shrillest Internet forum clamoring).
So there are multiple factors in effect--not the evil conspiracy that you imagine. There is the economic downturn that has caused all manufacturers to contract their production capacity, which is a dark cloud over everything.
There is the fact that Canon is following a new distribution strategy of "shallow but wide"--very likely to ensure that a handful of New York vendors can't put a stranglehold on them. If you're only paying attention to those major vendors, supply will look a lot worse than it really is.
Concerning the 5DII:
Earlier quote
RDKirk wrote: Sales are exceeding manufacturing capacity.Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not read the entire thread, however if you're going to attack someone's point of view as a "fantasy," I'd think you'd at least have the courtesy to have read all of that person's posts.
The problem with www.nowinstock.net is that they are only surveying major Internet dealers. While it's valuable information for people who intend to purchase from one of those dealers, it is a fatal error of information analysis to believe it provides a meaningful statistic.
One of the things I noted in one of these threads six months ago was that Canon's distribution of the 5D2 and the LP-E6 battery has been "shallow but wide." In years before, Canon shipped large supplies of product to the largest retailers first and small retailers had to wait half a year or more after a product was introduced to see their first box.
But since at least the release of the 5D2, small retailers started getting a consistent trickle of product from the very beginning--and large retailers have been getting not much more. For instance, I had no trouble getting two 5D2 cameras and several extra LP-E6 batteries in January just by placing orders in a couple of small stores and waiting two weeks.
This is also borne out in this blog by a rental center representative, who believes that Canon is taking a deliberate effort to keep the "Wal-Mart" effect from putting its destiny in the hands of a few major retailers: http://www.lensrentals.com/news/2009.04.24/state-of-the-slr-industry-2009
I have written in this thread that Canon is doing the same thing as most manufacturers-- reducing manufacturing capacity in fear of the current economic downturn. They are certainly not increasing capacity. The primary expense of a company is usually labor, and a reduction of expenses looks on the books like an increase in profits ("A penny saved is a penny earned").
They can't guarantee more sales in this environment, but they can guarantee reduced expenses by laying off workers and eliminating assembly lines. That's what an auto plant in my town has done (despite the fact that the company's overall sales are still fairly good). That's what Canon has been doing.
I will amend my statement that you quoted: Until the global economy shows signs of permanent improvement, Canon is unlikely to increase production capacity regardless of momentary demand.
You attribute this to special devious maliciousness on the part of Canon. I see this happening everywhere. For instance, do you recall the national issue in the US a few years ago over the inability to get armor for Army HumVee vehicles in Iraq quickly enough? Because of the overall reduction in production capacity in the entire US (something I'd noted had begun adversely affecting national defense back in the mid-90s), there was only one supplier for that armor, and that supplier was not going to increase production capacity for a short-term demand (a budget appropriation lasting only one fiscal year).
Not many (if any) major manufacturers right now are going to open new floorspace, order new production equipment, or hire new workers, even if there is a demand. Not right now, probably not this year, maybe not next year. Canon is not, Nikon is not, Sony is not. It's just as hard to get some Nikon items as it is to get some Canon items.
What they will do is rotate production lines through the smaller capacity they currently have. For instance, they will make a short production run of one lens model, then shift that assembly line make another short production run of another model. So there will be periods of availability and periods that a lens is out of stock. That's exactly what the auto plant in my town is doing, too.
We know for a fact that Canon has shelved plans for a new plant and has dismissed at least 1000 Japanese workers, so they have reduced capacity even down from what they had when the 5D2 was initially released.
If Canon is planning to release a new xxD camera soon, I expect they've temporarily shifted their consumer capacity to support that camera and whichever other consumer camera provides the most profit (which is not necessarily the camera that has the shrillest Internet forum clamoring).
So there are multiple factors in effect--not the evil conspiracy that you imagine. There is the economic downturn that has caused all manufacturers to contract their production capacity, which is a dark cloud over everything.
There is the fact that Canon is following a new distribution strategy of "shallow but wide"--very likely to ensure that a handful of New York vendors can't put a stranglehold on them. If you're only paying attention to those major vendors, supply will look a lot worse than it really is.
Aug 22, 2009 at 08:36 AM
p.21 #6Canon 7D
Not sure if it indicates any change in Canon's product distribution, but during the release of the new TS-E lenses it appeared that initial availability was better in Europe, Asia (China) and Canada than in the US. While it took about 5 weeks for my TS-E 17 to arrive at the end of July, I'm pretty sure I got one earlier than many in the US who placed orders with the larger online vendors. Meanwhile I purchased it through my local dealer (in Canada). I wonder if the priority the US market receives in product allocation during a new product launch has changed, though it's only a hunch.
In fact, going as far back as the original 1D, which was in very high initial demand, I got mine through the same local dealer much earlier than many others on the forums I followed at that time. Since then I have subscribed to the notion that there is an advantage to dealing with a smaller vendor rather than being deep in the waiting list at one of the big online stores.
Ron
In fact, going as far back as the original 1D, which was in very high initial demand, I got mine through the same local dealer much earlier than many others on the forums I followed at that time. Since then I have subscribed to the notion that there is an advantage to dealing with a smaller vendor rather than being deep in the waiting list at one of the big online stores.
Ron
Aug 22, 2009 at 11:05 AM
p.21 #7Canon 7D
RDKirk, your explanation is the most reasonable and sensible one I've read on these boards in quite a while. Well done.
Aug 22, 2009 at 11:17 AM
p.21 #8Canon 7D
This will be a 5D MKII at 12MP but with broadly the same feature set and possibly a toucher smaller.
What I´m hoping for is better features for video, especially a 24p mode and some of the innovations from the Magic Lantern Firmware. Even better if these features were also available to MKII users via a firmware update.
What I´m hoping for is better features for video, especially a 24p mode and some of the innovations from the Magic Lantern Firmware. Even better if these features were also available to MKII users via a firmware update.
Aug 22, 2009 at 11:27 AM
p.21 #9Canon 7D
thedigitalbean wrote:
RDKirk, your explanation is the most reasonable and sensible one I've read on these boards in quite a while. Well done.
+1 ... and no surprise.
RDKirk, your explanation is the most reasonable and sensible one I've read on these boards in quite a while. Well done.
+1 ... and no surprise.
Aug 22, 2009 at 12:27 PM
p.21 #10Canon 7D
RDKirk wrote:
Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.www.nowinstock.net reports present availability for cameras. I don't need Canon 5DII sales numbers to realize that 5DII monthly sales in August 2009 are vastly lower than they were in December 2008, when it was first introduced. In December 2008, on average, two to three of the major retailers out of ten had 5DII in stock. Today as I write this, zero of 10 major retailers have 5DII in stock.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you have not read the entire thread, however if you're going to attack someone's point of view as a "fantasy," I'd think you'd at least have the courtesy to have read all of that person's posts.
The problem with www.nowinstock.net is that they are only surveying major Internet dealers. While it's valuable information for people who intend to purchase from one of those dealers, it is a fatal error of information analysis to believe it provides a meaningful statistic.
One of the things I noted in one of these threads six...Show more →
Pure logic.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Don Clary wrote
Concerning the 5DII:Earlier quote
RDKirk wrote: Sales are exceeding manufacturing capacity.Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?
The problem with www.nowinstock.net is that they are only surveying major Internet dealers. While it's valuable information for people who intend to purchase from one of those dealers, it is a fatal error of information analysis to believe it provides a meaningful statistic.
One of the things I noted in one of these threads six...Show more →
Pure logic.
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Aug 22, 2009 at 03:07 PM
p.21 #12Canon 7D
RDKirk wrote:
Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.www.nowinstock.net reports present availability for cameras. I don't need Canon 5DII sales numbers to realize that 5DII monthly sales in August 2009 are vastly lower than they were in December 2008, when it was first introduced. In December 2008, on average, two to three of the major retailers out of ten had 5DII in stock. Today as I write this, zero of 10 major retailers have 5DII in stock.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?You attribute this to special devious maliciousness on the part of Canon. I see this happening everywhere. For instance, do you recall the national issue in the US a few years ago over the inability to get armor for Army HumVee vehicles in Iraq quickly enough? Because of the overall reduction in production capacity in the entire US (something I'd noted had begun adversely affecting national defense back in the mid-90s), there was only one supplier for that armor, and that supplier was not going to increase production capacity for a short-term demand (a budget appropriation lasting only one).
...Show more →
This brought the point home to me as purchasing HMMWV's is my job.
Thanks for the very good explanation.
Don Clary wrote
Concerning the 5DII:Earlier quote
RDKirk wrote: Sales are exceeding manufacturing capacity.Cineski wrote: Do you not agree that Canon tends to play this a bit more than other manufacturers? Canon releases gear, and then they don't manufacture to demand. They've actually brought the numbers down, to the point that even if demand is less, there's still a perceived demand because they simply aren't cranking the gear out fast enough.
RDKirk wrote:No, I don't agree, not at all. For every manufacturer, especially for Canon and Nikon, there is rather short supply in the first months when demand seems to be frantic … then demand levels off to meet the planned supply.
Manufacturers will not size production capacity to meet that initial demand Internet.
RDKirk, do you still have this fantasy that in August 2009, Canon cannot meet the astounding demand for 5DII?
...Show more →
This brought the point home to me as purchasing HMMWV's is my job.
Thanks for the very good explanation.
Aug 22, 2009 at 06:16 PM
p.21 #13Canon 7D
If the 7D turns out to be FF, less MP (12-18), higher FPS (5 or more), more AF points, and cheeper than the 5DmkII, I may be interested.
Aug 22, 2009 at 06:19 PM
p.21 #14Canon 7D
Though I dont believe in conspiracies, have you ever thought the 5DII "shortage" might have something to do with the fact Canon "may" have been going to use the 1D3 AF of the 5D2, but had to revert to the 5D AF when the issue popped up with the 1D3 AF (real or imagined)?
Now would they make a 5D2N with the 7D AF? I know, Im insane. But for someone who sold all his 1D stuff 18 months ago and greatly regrets it, I'm going in with a clean slate and the FF/1.3 12ish MP 4+ FPS and improved AF this new 7D rumor seems to be what I want, for now.
Now would they make a 5D2N with the 7D AF? I know, Im insane. But for someone who sold all his 1D stuff 18 months ago and greatly regrets it, I'm going in with a clean slate and the FF/1.3 12ish MP 4+ FPS and improved AF this new 7D rumor seems to be what I want, for now.
Aug 22, 2009 at 06:47 PM
p.21 #16Canon 7D
JunRay707 wrote:
Maybe canon will add the new 1.44 crop sensor or 16:9 format.
Can I have a square format? so that I can get rid of my flash bracket and the vertical grip all together.
Maybe canon will add the new 1.44 crop sensor or 16:9 format.
Can I have a square format? so that I can get rid of my flash bracket and the vertical grip all together.
Aug 22, 2009 at 08:22 PM
p.21 #17Canon 7D
henryng wrote:
Can I have a square format? so that I can get rid of my flash bracket and the vertical grip all together.
That already exists, at least on the Mark III. CFn IV-14: Add aspect ratio information: 6:6, 3:4, 4:5, 6:7, 10:12, 5:7
All they'd need to do is add a crop option for 16:9.
JunRay707 wrote
Maybe canon will add the new 1.44 crop sensor or 16:9 format.That already exists, at least on the Mark III. CFn IV-14: Add aspect ratio information: 6:6, 3:4, 4:5, 6:7, 10:12, 5:7
All they'd need to do is add a crop option for 16:9.
Aug 22, 2009 at 09:59 PM
p.21 #18Canon 7D
henryng wrote:
Can I have a square format? so that I can get rid of my flash bracket and the vertical grip all together.
It's actually a good point and one of the reasons I went for the 1Ds3 and 5D2 combo, I have a 14 meg camera in a square format which is quite useful to me
David
JunRay707 wrote
Maybe canon will add the new 1.44 crop sensor or 16:9 format.It's actually a good point and one of the reasons I went for the 1Ds3 and 5D2 combo, I have a 14 meg camera in a square format which is quite useful to me
David
Aug 23, 2009 at 01:00 AM
p.21 #19Canon 7D
"I have a 14 meg camera in a square format which is quite useful to me"
+ 1
Several years after giving up my Hasselblad I'm rediscovering the joys of the square format with my 5D2. Before I bought this camera I was frankly skeptical that I would ever need more than say 12 megapixels, but now I am more used to 20+ megapixels at high ISO I have changed my mind. As you suggest the 5D2 does square convincingly because its sensor is so detailed.
However, if the 7D were a budget FF body with say 12-15 megapixels I would love one as a second body.
+ 1
Several years after giving up my Hasselblad I'm rediscovering the joys of the square format with my 5D2. Before I bought this camera I was frankly skeptical that I would ever need more than say 12 megapixels, but now I am more used to 20+ megapixels at high ISO I have changed my mind. As you suggest the 5D2 does square convincingly because its sensor is so detailed.
However, if the 7D were a budget FF body with say 12-15 megapixels I would love one as a second body.
Aug 23, 2009 at 02:08 AM
p.21 #20Canon 7D
stargazer78 wrote:
I'm curious why people feel that Canon -- as a business entity -- needs to "answer" the D700 at all?
All indications point to the fact that the 5D Mark II has outsold the Nikon D700 by a good margin. It took the 5D Mark II nearly a year before supply caught up with demand. In fact, it's still out of stock at many major stores around the world today. On the other hand, the Nikon D700 hasn't really been hard to find since the first month of its release.
And the 5D2's dominance in the market is reflected in...Show more →
Ok, I agree with what you say, but if say the D700x is released with around 24MP, and true HD video, etc for $2999, the 5D would no longer have the show to itself and I'll bet the sales imbalance evens up considerably.
RDKirk wrote
Canon doesn't "answer" to camera models released by competitors. It just doesn't work that way. They give part of their product philosophy in the Canon Camera Museum website where they detail the development of the T-90, and in one interview an executive talked about their five-year planning method and model structure pyramid concept.All indications point to the fact that the 5D Mark II has outsold the Nikon D700 by a good margin. It took the 5D Mark II nearly a year before supply caught up with demand. In fact, it's still out of stock at many major stores around the world today. On the other hand, the Nikon D700 hasn't really been hard to find since the first month of its release.
And the 5D2's dominance in the market is reflected in...Show more →
Ok, I agree with what you say, but if say the D700x is released with around 24MP, and true HD video, etc for $2999, the 5D would no longer have the show to itself and I'll bet the sales imbalance evens up considerably.
Aug 23, 2009 at 02:28 AM