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Archive 2009What happened to the affordable FF dream?
p.2 #1What happened to the affordable FF dream?
chez wrote:
i highly doubt that there will be a sub $2000 full frame any time soon, but only canon knows.Watch out for Sony. They will lead the way to the low cost FF system.
Yes, Sony, and apparently somewhat less than $2000
big country wrote
in 2005 i bought my 5D I for 2200 after rebates.i highly doubt that there will be a sub $2000 full frame any time soon, but only canon knows.
Yes, Sony, and apparently somewhat less than $2000
Aug 05, 2009 at 08:19 PM
p.2 #2What happened to the affordable FF dream?
The value of a dollar is fixin' to drop faster than the production cost of camera gear, so the $1000 full frame digital SLR isn't going to happen for the next few years.
Aug 05, 2009 at 09:34 PM
p.2 #3What happened to the affordable FF dream?
sensor is about 55% of the cost of the entire body. Until the semiconductor cost comes down for such a large IC, you are just not going to get to a consumer FF body.
J.
J.
Aug 05, 2009 at 09:53 PM
p.2 #4What happened to the affordable FF dream?
chez wrote:
i highly doubt that there will be a sub $2000 full frame any time soon, but only canon knows.Watch out for Sony. They will lead the way to the low cost FF system.
+1
Sony products will increase the supply to the market and lower the equilibrium price point.
big country wrote
in 2005 i bought my 5D I for 2200 after rebates.i highly doubt that there will be a sub $2000 full frame any time soon, but only canon knows.
+1
Sony products will increase the supply to the market and lower the equilibrium price point.
Aug 05, 2009 at 10:00 PM
p.2 #5What happened to the affordable FF dream?
No they won't. The same economics principles apply to them.
J.
J.
Aug 05, 2009 at 10:22 PM
p.2 #6What happened to the affordable FF dream?
JohnJ80 wrote:
sensor is about 55% of the cost of the entire body. Until the semiconductor cost comes down for such a large IC, you are just not going to get to a consumer FF body.
J.
so the 1dsmk3s sensor costs 4400.00
but the FF sensor in the 5dmk2 is 1500.00..
Edited on Aug 05, 2009 at 10:42 PM · View previous versions
sensor is about 55% of the cost of the entire body. Until the semiconductor cost comes down for such a large IC, you are just not going to get to a consumer FF body.
J.
so the 1dsmk3s sensor costs 4400.00
but the FF sensor in the 5dmk2 is 1500.00..
Edited on Aug 05, 2009 at 10:42 PM · View previous versions
Aug 05, 2009 at 10:39 PM
p.2 #7What happened to the affordable FF dream?
JohnJ80 wrote:
No they won't. The same economics principles apply to them.
J.
Really? Let's see how the new Sony e-Readers competing with Amazon Kindle
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08/sony_hunting_amazon_and_apple_with_e-reader.php
No they won't. The same economics principles apply to them.
J.
Really? Let's see how the new Sony e-Readers competing with Amazon Kindle
http://business.theatlantic.com/2009/08/sony_hunting_amazon_and_apple_with_e-reader.php
Aug 05, 2009 at 10:39 PM
p.2 #8What happened to the affordable FF dream?
Right. Now look at market share in readers. Oops. Even worse if you count the iPhone as an eBook reader (great app, btw).
but we digress.
The point is this: the economical size for a given semiconductor die size has not dropped very fast over the history of the industry (do not confuse that with what can be put on a die - not the same thing). A FF sensor (die) is obviously fixed by the size of a 35mm negative so it isn't getting cheaper very fast regardless of what you put on it or leave off of it. That sensor cost is not going to drop very fast which is what you would need to make a cheaper FF dslr.
Those are the economic realities that Sony, or any camera mfg for that matter, face. If Sony, bless their little hearts, wants to go out and sacrifice themselves on the altar of market share (and let's hope they do) then run right out and get one before they run out of money. Unfortunately, with the way things look for them right now, don't expect it to last much longer than the Cash for Clunkers fiasco (and a fiasco is what it would be for Sony). Fair amount of red ink over at Sony these days. The heyday for Sony is long over.
J.
but we digress.
The point is this: the economical size for a given semiconductor die size has not dropped very fast over the history of the industry (do not confuse that with what can be put on a die - not the same thing). A FF sensor (die) is obviously fixed by the size of a 35mm negative so it isn't getting cheaper very fast regardless of what you put on it or leave off of it. That sensor cost is not going to drop very fast which is what you would need to make a cheaper FF dslr.
Those are the economic realities that Sony, or any camera mfg for that matter, face. If Sony, bless their little hearts, wants to go out and sacrifice themselves on the altar of market share (and let's hope they do) then run right out and get one before they run out of money. Unfortunately, with the way things look for them right now, don't expect it to last much longer than the Cash for Clunkers fiasco (and a fiasco is what it would be for Sony). Fair amount of red ink over at Sony these days. The heyday for Sony is long over.
J.
Aug 05, 2009 at 11:20 PM
p.2 #9What happened to the affordable FF dream?
FF never been so cheap as today. Frankly - with second hand 5D everywhere - how can you complain?
Aug 06, 2009 at 12:14 AM
p.2 #10What happened to the affordable FF dream?
It has now been a solid 4 years since Canon introduced the first 'affordable' full frame body. At the time discussion revolved around the idea that it would be only a matter of time before Canon released the first sub-$1,000 full frame DSLR just as they managed to release the digital Rebel as the first sub-$1,000 DSLR of any kind.
That discussion was wishful thinking. I never believed there would be a entry level full frame model anytime soon, specifically for this reason:
The point is this: the economical size for a given semiconductor die size has not dropped very fast over the history of the industry (do not confuse that with what can be put on a die - not the same thing).
A 24mm APSC imager is always going to be cheaper than a 35mm FF imager. The yields at a given density of pixels are always going to be better given a smaller die size, especially both in how many you can fit on a wafer and how many you can get working out of a batch of wafers. That's why EF-S is here for the long term, as long as the chip is a major portion of the bill of materials and overall product cost, then it makes sense to put the cheapest, highest resolution chip appropriate for the segment. And that inevitably is going to be a crop frame sensor.
Those are the economic realities that Sony, or any camera mfg for that matter, face. If Sony, bless their little hearts, wants to go out and sacrifice themselves on the altar of market share (and let's hope they do) then run right out and get one before they run out of money.
And that's the second reason why you won't find a Canon FF body for $1k. Canon has a high end and professional product line to protect. Sony doesn't, which is why it can put out the A900 at a lower price, because it there's no professional Alpha market to cannibalize. Canon on the other hand would be damaging 5D2 and 1Ds3 sales if a 7D came out.
One has to ask who would buy a $1k FF camera? The benefits of a FF sensor are largely technical (depth of field, sensor noise) and appreciated by the enthusiast or professional purchaser. If you really wanted one, you would have either already bought a 5D four years ago, or a 5D2 now. All you're doing is lowering your revenue margins to those who want FF quality but couldn't afford it, which is a fairly small market.
Bringing FF to sub $1k will not gain any market share growth for the existing 50D prosumer user. What will garner growth or at least keep competitive in that category will be adding new features, improving in camera processing/presets/face detection etc and making a user experience similar to a point and shoot for those coming up from $500 bridge cameras like the PowerShot S and G series.
If you look at all the major changes in those products (eg, 50D) they've all been adding features (video) or user experience oriented (LiveView). Looking at Canon's supporting product portfolio--things like the 10-22mm and 17-55mm f2.8 IS, it's pretty clear they've supported the APSC format for that prosumer/advanced entry segment really well with good quality lenses.
FF never been so cheap as today. Frankly - with second hand 5D everywhere - how can you complain?
Agreed on that one--grab a used 5D and enjoy. I did and I love it.
That discussion was wishful thinking. I never believed there would be a entry level full frame model anytime soon, specifically for this reason:
The point is this: the economical size for a given semiconductor die size has not dropped very fast over the history of the industry (do not confuse that with what can be put on a die - not the same thing).
A 24mm APSC imager is always going to be cheaper than a 35mm FF imager. The yields at a given density of pixels are always going to be better given a smaller die size, especially both in how many you can fit on a wafer and how many you can get working out of a batch of wafers. That's why EF-S is here for the long term, as long as the chip is a major portion of the bill of materials and overall product cost, then it makes sense to put the cheapest, highest resolution chip appropriate for the segment. And that inevitably is going to be a crop frame sensor.
Those are the economic realities that Sony, or any camera mfg for that matter, face. If Sony, bless their little hearts, wants to go out and sacrifice themselves on the altar of market share (and let's hope they do) then run right out and get one before they run out of money.
And that's the second reason why you won't find a Canon FF body for $1k. Canon has a high end and professional product line to protect. Sony doesn't, which is why it can put out the A900 at a lower price, because it there's no professional Alpha market to cannibalize. Canon on the other hand would be damaging 5D2 and 1Ds3 sales if a 7D came out.
One has to ask who would buy a $1k FF camera? The benefits of a FF sensor are largely technical (depth of field, sensor noise) and appreciated by the enthusiast or professional purchaser. If you really wanted one, you would have either already bought a 5D four years ago, or a 5D2 now. All you're doing is lowering your revenue margins to those who want FF quality but couldn't afford it, which is a fairly small market.
Bringing FF to sub $1k will not gain any market share growth for the existing 50D prosumer user. What will garner growth or at least keep competitive in that category will be adding new features, improving in camera processing/presets/face detection etc and making a user experience similar to a point and shoot for those coming up from $500 bridge cameras like the PowerShot S and G series.
If you look at all the major changes in those products (eg, 50D) they've all been adding features (video) or user experience oriented (LiveView). Looking at Canon's supporting product portfolio--things like the 10-22mm and 17-55mm f2.8 IS, it's pretty clear they've supported the APSC format for that prosumer/advanced entry segment really well with good quality lenses.
FF never been so cheap as today. Frankly - with second hand 5D everywhere - how can you complain?
Agreed on that one--grab a used 5D and enjoy. I did and I love it.
Aug 06, 2009 at 12:55 AM
p.2 #11What happened to the affordable FF dream?
Very simple, go back to basics get rid of all the crap like video, liveview etc and just produce a simple solidly constructed camera with a decent AF.
Imagine an original 5d with a solid build and an improved AF.
Heaven!
Imagine an original 5d with a solid build and an improved AF.
Heaven!
Aug 06, 2009 at 05:51 AM
p.2 #12What happened to the affordable FF dream?
The sticking point may be manufacturing costs. In a Canon White Paper on sensors a few years ago it was mentioned that the 1.6 and 1.3 formats can be burned in one pass per layer, but the FF sensors require three separate registered exposures which in addition to added production time also likely increases the spoilage rate considerably.
Aug 06, 2009 at 06:20 AM
p.2 #13What happened to the affordable FF dream?
"Very simple, go back to basics get rid of all the crap like video, liveview etc and just produce a simple solidly constructed camera with a decent AF."
Personally I can't do without Live View, with this all my manual focussing is totally accurate. AF and focussing screens don't come anywhere close. Do agree about the video though.
Personally I can't do without Live View, with this all my manual focussing is totally accurate. AF and focussing screens don't come anywhere close. Do agree about the video though.
Aug 06, 2009 at 06:35 AM
p.2 #14What happened to the affordable FF dream?
jo4black:
Very simple, go back to basics get rid of all the crap like video, liveview etc and just produce a simple solidly constructed camera with a decent AF.
I agree with this 100%. I am getting upset every time someone tells me that these "features" are the future and I simply do not need to use them. I want a simple "film like" camera. I am not a Luddite (only if someone who works in HighTech industries could be also against "progress"). If it continues like that I may actually get myself a Sony camera.
Edited on Aug 06, 2009 at 09:48 AM · View previous versions
Very simple, go back to basics get rid of all the crap like video, liveview etc and just produce a simple solidly constructed camera with a decent AF.
I agree with this 100%. I am getting upset every time someone tells me that these "features" are the future and I simply do not need to use them. I want a simple "film like" camera. I am not a Luddite (only if someone who works in HighTech industries could be also against "progress"). If it continues like that I may actually get myself a Sony camera.
Edited on Aug 06, 2009 at 09:48 AM · View previous versions
Aug 06, 2009 at 06:52 AM
p.2 #15What happened to the affordable FF dream?
It has now been a solid 4 years since Canon introduced the first 'affordable' full frame body. At the time discussion revolved around the idea that it would be only a matter of time before Canon released the first sub-$1,000 full frame DSLR.....
"Discussions" about the future of camera pricing are speculative, not fact. You have an affordable option with a mint 5D. If that doesn't meet your needs a less affordable 5DII is available.
"Discussions" about the future of camera pricing are speculative, not fact. You have an affordable option with a mint 5D. If that doesn't meet your needs a less affordable 5DII is available.
Aug 06, 2009 at 07:11 AM
p.2 #16What happened to the affordable FF dream?
Most of these features have a minimal - if any - impact on the cost of goods sold. Most of it is software which is an R&D expense that you amortize into the cost of the product over time (much lower). Taking out these features will not have an appreciable impact on producing a consumer full frame camera. The fact still remains that the semiconductor size impact on the sensor cost is what stops FF in it's tracks from getting into the consumer price points.
J.
J.
Aug 06, 2009 at 07:15 AM
p.2 #17What happened to the affordable FF dream?
JohnJ80 wrote:
Most of these features have a minimal - if any - impact on the cost of goods sold. Most of it is software which is an R&D expense that you amortize into the cost of the product over time (much lower). Taking out these features will not have an appreciable impact on producing a consumer full frame camera. The fact still remains that the semiconductor size impact on the sensor cost is what stops FF in it's tracks from getting into the consumer price points.
J.
And yet the price reset that resulted in the entry price of Canon FF increasing by 45% is entirely attributable to the company's price support strategy that has been in place since they disabled ai servo and a few other features of the 10d and sold it for less than 1k.
Clearly a few posters like paying a high price enough to help justify it. I hope you all won't be be too disappointed when the race to the bottom really gets underway. It isn't going to be long before we start seeing a increase in the frequency of product releases and revisions as well as an increase in price competition. Look to the p&s market if you want to see the future.
Most of these features have a minimal - if any - impact on the cost of goods sold. Most of it is software which is an R&D expense that you amortize into the cost of the product over time (much lower). Taking out these features will not have an appreciable impact on producing a consumer full frame camera. The fact still remains that the semiconductor size impact on the sensor cost is what stops FF in it's tracks from getting into the consumer price points.
J.
And yet the price reset that resulted in the entry price of Canon FF increasing by 45% is entirely attributable to the company's price support strategy that has been in place since they disabled ai servo and a few other features of the 10d and sold it for less than 1k.
Clearly a few posters like paying a high price enough to help justify it. I hope you all won't be be too disappointed when the race to the bottom really gets underway. It isn't going to be long before we start seeing a increase in the frequency of product releases and revisions as well as an increase in price competition. Look to the p&s market if you want to see the future.
Aug 06, 2009 at 09:49 AM
p.2 #18What happened to the affordable FF dream?
The sensor size is a great opportunity for the camera makers to segment the market - with the FF cameras going straight to the premium segment.
What you are basically asking why are these premium products not getting cheaper over time.
If nice expensive cars are any indication, you know what the anwer is.
What you are basically asking why are these premium products not getting cheaper over time.
If nice expensive cars are any indication, you know what the anwer is.
Aug 06, 2009 at 10:00 AM
p.2 #19What happened to the affordable FF dream?
obroni wrote:
FF never been so cheap as today. Frankly - with second hand 5D everywhere - how can you complain?
Agreed.
FF never been so cheap as today. Frankly - with second hand 5D everywhere - how can you complain?
Agreed.
Aug 06, 2009 at 10:07 AM
p.2 #20What happened to the affordable FF dream?
You can buy a 1ds mkI for around $1100...
I agree though seems like companies have been milking the cow for a few years there.
I agree though seems like companies have been milking the cow for a few years there.
Aug 06, 2009 at 10:24 AM