I'm still amazed that people are attacking a poster who offered advice.
Is this forum really getting to the point that we attack anyone who critiques our pictures? Seriously folks. I think I offered the harshest constructive criticism and no one is attacking me.
Attacking another poster for posting critiques hurts EVERYONE. I would be sorely disappointed if I posted a photo for critique and people would be too afraid to post their HONEST opinions because of retaliation by forum members. No one posts on here to make friends, they post to receive constructive criticism and become a better photog.
jeremy_clay wrote:
To show contrasting styles versus opinions. You ripped serg's style, so it adds context to see what your style and background is.
I'm not hosting your images, they are links from your online profile. You were given due credit.
I promise you the OP will be okay with this as it adds to the discussion.
That can happen anywhere you have an online profile. I'm not even linking to your personal or business website, but a public, Googleable community site.
I understand where you're coming from - no probs.
I critique based on the image, not the artist.
I totally understand wanting to know the credentials of the critic.
Just because it's not the style i shoot/sell doesn't mean my opinion lacks merit though. Different strokes for different folks, absolutely.
I believe I said he relies too much on PP actions over basic photography skills. And what's shown here lacks variety in even PP effects IMO.
But posing is done to flatter the human form. Serg's images here don't do that.Look at the subject's head position in just about every image and then look at ANY book or website on how to pose a human head. You turn the head to hide one ear but not so far to have nose stick out beyond the cheek. You tilt the head (to achieve an S or C curve overall form depending on female/male subject). this has been standard for hundreds of years. Of course people have broken the rules at some point during those centuries, but it keeps coming back to the same posing options because it makes the person look better.
Now, do I do that in every image I make? Hell no. I'm not that good - yet. There are 1000 things going on in my head when shooting 1 on 1 with a senior. I admit I spend way too much time experimenting and shooting instead of doing a very practiced, precise posing and lighting ritual. Some of that is my lack of skills/experience for sure, but some of it is by design.
Give the customer an experience and not just a photo session. When a senior comes in for their senior pictures and you want $1000 from them you can't do the same thing that they've experienced at school picture day, easter pics at jcpenney, soccer photo day, etc. So it's more one-on-one and interactive. Some images are shot to be a series or part of a collage, etc and they end up liking a particular one for whatever reason.
You never know what mom will buy. I know this firsthand, many times over. I've seen people buy OOF images. Iv'e seen one mom buy a shot with wind blown hair cause the love it and another freak cause one hair is out of place. Is an ear sticking thru the hair a bad thing or not? Depends on the girl and mom. Smiles? I have one girl that spend $1200 and hated every image without a smile (it's not me she says) and yet others end up buying a 20x24 of a non-smiling shot.
Art is in the eye of the beholder! You can't sell what you don't shoot or show.
Some of what i post in my portfolio is what I like, want to sell. Some of it is what sold, even if it's not my favorite image. Again, I'm caving in to monetary gain over artistic purity.
Thats been my experience, my opinion.
As a mentor once pointed out - What's the definition of a good picture? Did the client pay you for it? Then it was a good picture.
Prof_fate I truly understand, we can only grow by addressing what we do not know, NOT what we already know....Good posts some very valid points and opinions.
prof_fate wrote:
There's a reason the drinking age is 21, voting age used to be 21 - maturity arrives about then. I've worked with young people most of my life and I've seen it over and over again.
Drinking age is actually 18 yo here.
And it's weird to hear the word "Senior" be applied to somebody so young. Senior usually means somebody over 65.
Btw, nice pics, but I think some of prof_fate's crits do make sense. For example, the picture of the bum on the bench with the "senior" nowhere to be seen seems a little odd. It's a nice picture, but doesn't seem to have much to do with the subject at hand (since he isn't in it, or at least not at all visible).I think prof_fate makes some sense and has some good points, but perhaps isn't very tactful in his delivery.
I find a lot of the other pictures to be very nice indeed. A few I don't like. I'm a bit surprised at both the accolades and the attacks of the pictures here. I'm somewhere in between.
sivrajbm wrote:
Prof_fate I truly understand, we can only grow by addressing what we do not know, NOT what we already know....Good posts some very valid points and opinions.
I got into a heated discussion once over a simple thing. The poster was all excited that google would tell him what people typed in that found his website. While that can be useful of course, what I would find more valuable is what folks type in that find my competitors website! One slight difference in a meta tag or words on your page can make a significant difference in the rankings/results.
But he never seemed to quite grasp the concept.
There's a lot I don't know. I ask the folks that have done it for years, that run million dollar studios- "How do you make those images, that money, market, etc??" They obviously have figured it out and know something I don't know. I then listen to what they say and evaluate it as it relates to me, my abilities, resources, etc.
Simple example. Every top shooter (that shoots canon) uses L lenses. Why? I mean, tamron lenses and rebel cameras cost a lot less and make nice images, so why spend thousands on the better gear? Does it make a difference? (answer is yes, it does -but try and convince people of it)
prof_fate wrote:
Many photogs do indeed do the 'mall look' - why? It sells. If people quit buying it then you'd not be seeing it everyplace, huh?
Many photogs do the 'mall look' because it is all they have been taught to shoot. It sells because it is all that is offered to the vast majority of people; it's lowest common denominator. It's also lazy, heartless and cynical photography. It's the drive thru burger of photography.
I do understand your point about earning a living and shooting what is commercially viable. I can't imagine what it's like shooting 200 spotty teens, yikes!
liamh wrote:
Many photogs do the 'mall look' because it is all they have been taught to shoot. It sells because it is all that is offered to the vast majority of people; it's lowest common denominator. It's also lazy, heartless and cynical photography. It's the drive thru burger of photography.
Though we often disagree, every now and then, liamh, I get a wee man-crush on you. Well put.
Those darn kids and their hip hop music, horseless carriages and color tee vees!
Just like Sergios work isn't for everyone, neither is Prof_Fates or mine. What benefit would there be for Serg to try to shoot like a 40 or 50 year old photographer with 'classical posing' and rembrandt lighting and hairlights? He's not shooting to satisfy other photographers, he's shooting to satisfy his clients.
Looking like a star seems to be what the 'kids' want these days and their style cues come from magazines, movies/tv etc. and Serg seems to be tuned into that. I could see his style or technique used in magazines much more than most of the other work posted here. Replace one of his unknown seniors with a young movie star and everybody would be tripping over each other to pat him on the back.
I also think it is better to address the argument / opinion rather than making ad hominem attacks on the person. Is prof_fate wrong because his work isn't up to your standards Jeremey? Its simply a way to try shut down other others opinions
i think people feel that i had some issues with prof_fates critiques. i am capable of reading and understanding his gripes with my posing/processing.
i had a problem with him dictating what sells in my market, because it shows that he knows not even a smidgen about it. you might be the millionaire master of the midwest, but you would get SPIT ON in a hipster town like seattle. the senior market does not lend much success for traditional, studio photography.
i tell my clients they will be incorporated into a work of art. some of which they may not be the main subject.
see, the client and i were having quite a good time listening to the crazed bum talking to herself. we even struck up a conversation. only fitting that i take a photo, only fitting that it is sitting with 7-8 positive comments on his facebook.
i dont know how you do things, but i only know how i do them. a lot of my shoots end up with us going out for lunch/dinner/coffee and chatting it up, looking through images, and enjoying each others company.
i get hired because i am not 50. girls in highschool dread the 50 year old photographer that mom sends them to, all so that they can pose up against a white background.
seattle is very much about image and branding when it comes to photography....
Micky Bill wrote:
I also think it is better to address the argument / opinion rather than making ad hominem attacks on the person. Is prof_fate wrong because his work isn't up to your standards Jeremey? Its simply a way to try shut down other others opinions
If someone says 'your posing/lighting/style' whatever needs work, it certainly is important to see from what style/background they shoot, and gauge your response accordingly. Who's attacking him? I simply linked his works so people can contrast what he's saying with examples of what he shoots. I'm sure he's not ashamed of his work and is more in the 'classic' style.
For example: he states 'As senior portraits go, these are not very good." To prof_fate, and his idea of a senior portrait, that may be true - but who knows what that is without seeing his work or examples? The images posted are of his specific Senior work, and show his style and idea of Seniors photography.
I didn't really touch on Senior Pictures should make them feel grown up, important, independent, persons of substance, showcase their accomplishments, record them (favorably) at this point in their lives. stating how Senior photography have to be done in a certain way, which later was followed with You have the typical teenager's attitude that "I know it all!".. With such a blanket statement to an entire age group, someone certainly has that attitude...the whole 'critique' reeks of sour grapes and bah humbug.
And Prof_Fate strikes again! This is the ridiculous nature of someone embittered that their 'expertise' isn't taken. He's even taken the opportunity to contact me and lecture me on how I suck via PM before unsolicited.
Sergio doesn't do it just for the money, he does it because that's who he is. Granted this particular series is not as strong as some of his work but it IS different. Different is what some people want, there is no reason to mainstream your work if you don't want to. Being like everyone else is not always the best option, nor not always the most profitable.
Jerm posted his work since he was too scared to post his own. Consider the source.
Sorry but it's not art if it's shot on a digital camera. Rules are rules. If you want it to be art it has to be shot on film. Preferably with a Holga or Polaroid.
Tony Hoffer wrote:
Not that anyone cares about my opinion, but I usually like Sergio's work and I think he oozes style. WIth that said, I'm not crazy about this current set of pictures... just don't have any shots that make me say wow like I normally do when I look at your work.
Regarding the style thing, just be careful not to make the assumption that Sergio wants to make as much money as possible regardless of the means of getting there. Some photographers are in it to make money (and occasionally make art in the process) while some are in it to make art (and make some money while doing it). Let's not assume that either is right or wrong. There's a need for both....Show more →
Ok after trying to read through all of these posts, I will offer my thoughts. My work did over 10000 seniors last year. Yes you read that right, 10000. Yes I work for a major player in the senior portrait business. None of them, I repeat none of them wanted anything remotely close to this set. I'm not saying these are bad or anything they just aren't what many Southern California seniors would want. Neither would the parents. So in my opinion these wouldn't sell in my area.
I'm not that good - yet. There are 1000 things going on in my head when shooting 1 on 1 with a senior. I admit I spend way too much time experimenting and shooting instead of doing a very practiced, precise posing and lighting ritual. Some of that is my lack of skills/experience for sure, but some of it is by design.