RyanFlynn wrote:
Hands down one of my favorite threads of the year. I get to scope some cool frames from Sergio, and then spend (waste?) the next 30 minutes laughing at the awful "critiques" and "$.02" of all these keyboard toting anachronisms. Good times, good times.
Judging from my schooling, what I've read and what I've learned from this board, my critiques are on the mark. Judging from the other professionals, there are other spot on critiques. This is what I said earlier, some will fervently defend anything some people post on these boards.
However, I read in Dog Box's guide to posing that if a client likes the photo and you like it, it's a success. They don't do it for me, but they do it for you and him and them. That's fine. By Dog Box's definition, they are a success, and I wouldn't disagree with that. However when you post them on a public forum for public critique, not everybody is going to like them.
I also don't like lens flare and cross processing. I also tend to not like portrait photos where my subject isn't event discernable, let alone in a portrait that's meant to display who the person is. Unless this kid is hyper drove what Mike Jackson did, and went from white kid to black man and back in just a few frames.
At the end of the day, you should be able to KNOW what the subject is. There's some shots, I don't have a clue if I"m an "outsider".
ESC in KC wrote:
OK - that does it. I'm so offended I am never posting on FM again. Goodbye to all my internet soul mates. Really - never EVER again. Really....
Wait, isn't anyone going to tell me to come back (*holds cupped hand to ear***), isn't anyone going to send me nice PMs telling me how great I really am?? Hello, anyone out there Oh heck, I guess I'll just come back. But next time, I really REALLY am quitting forever!
Geee ^^^ that sounds familiar. It was actually Jeremy taking offense to something I had said on his insensitive comments on Gray Photography's leaving thread a little while back. Now I regret sending him those emails that he never responded back too. But I think you recaputred the moment perfectly.
I can see why he gives such good advice on how to build a reputable business!!!
The battle royal between Pro-fate and Sergio and his minions has gone too far. Lets just agree that pro-fate is not a big fan of Sergio, has his market cornered and has an affinity for posting photos on FM and Sergio digs his own style, is not a big fan of criticism, constructive or otherwise, and, oh yeah, is also an expert salesperson.
Now, everyone please put your egos away and go back to taking photos and selling art to people.
cecesdada wrote:
Now, everyone please put your egos away and go back to taking photos and selling art to people.
Jason
First, it's hard to be a photographer and not have an ego. And the more people tell you how wonderful your images are the bigger your ego can grow. That's not something we're going to 'put away' anytime soon.
I think Sergio did a great job with everything going on in this thread.
As for selling art to people, well, few people buy art and when it comes to their kids they'll buy crap if that's all their offered.
prof_fate wrote:
First, it's hard to be a photographer and not have an ego. And the more people tell you how wonderful your images are the bigger your ego can grow. That's not something we're going to 'put away' anytime soon.
I think Sergio did a great job with everything going on in this thread.
As for selling art to people, well, few people buy art and when it comes to their kids they'll buy crap if that's all their offered.
Sounds like you're calling Sergio's work crap Post up your link and show everyone your work. I've seen it and do not like it at all.
Petecc wrote:
Sounds like you're calling Sergio's work crap Post up your link and show everyone your work. I've seen it and do not like it at all.
Sorry
Pete
If his work is the stuff he posted here, I'm going to motion to say I like it better than what Serg posted here. I've nothing to gain by either person liking me or disliking me, so I don't make my comments based on that. Just personal preference in what I like versus what I don't like. I wouldn't say Serg's work is crap, but I'll say this. If it was ME, and I had all of the photos that Serg has in his portfolio, these wouldn't make it in. Serg's other work is on a completely different level than this.
Petecc wrote:
Sounds like you're calling Sergio's work crap Post up your link and show everyone your work. I've seen it and do not like it at all.
Sorry
Pete
No, not at all. Go to walmart, jcpenney, most any gradeshcool's yearbook photos, most 'sports' photos - it's not art but people buy it.
I own no art. I bet you don't either. Ok, the $9.99 canvas wrap from walmart doesn't count as art for this discussion. 'Art Prints' are not art any more than a calendar from the Louvre with photos of art in it, is art.
What is a good picture? Did someone buy it? Then it was a good picture. If no one bought it -then really, how good was it? If you have to give it away it has no value.
Serg was paid for those pics so there' good in the eyes of the buyer.
Are they art? That's a whole seperate discussion and a whole lot more personal. http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/aria/aria_encyclopedia/00047791?lang=en
You may not agree and that's fine. The images (see the top of the page) have been admired for hundreds of years and sell for millions and hang in musuems. That is art, my friend.
Will my senior pictures qualify? Hell no. Will Sergios? Hell no. I don't see his pics hanging in a museum in 500 years anymore than mine.
patrickphoto wrote:
Just don't stop developing what you already have, and TAKE THE ADVICE of those offering it. You don't have to use it, but always accept graciously what you ask for.
If all I hear is praise, I am either not taking the right images to critique, or not listening. You don't have much to learn photographically, but just as all of us do, you do need more learning re: criticism.
I couldn't agree more on this -- problem with this thread is that you have two hard-headed folks trying to argue with each other. It's just a waste of time to read beyond the first one or two pages.
Sergio just needs to learn to take criticism a little better. From a technical standpoint, most of what prof_fate said was right. Sergio's style is very odd. The posing, if you can even call it that, is unconventional at best and unflattering at worst -- especially the photo with the homeless man!! I cannot imagine how such a thing would be considered relevant in 20 or more years when his client takes a look at his high school photos. Same with the photo with the gravel or with the parking lot. But at the same time, prof_fate shouldn't be making blanket generalizations about what sells and what doesn't. I checked some of Sergio's other work on his site and blog and they blow the photos on this thread out of the water. I think just judging by the volume of Sergio's clients, that at least some of his work sells.
In the end it really comes down to: what purpose do these photos serve? What do they say to the subject? What do they say to the person viewing them? Are they cool because they tell a story, or because they just take advantage of wild color adjustments, strange focusing, etc etc?
I think it will be very interesting to see how Sergio feels about these photos when he looks back on them in 5 or 10 years, assuming he even has a passing interest in photography by then. Unfortunately none of us will ever know, since this thread will have passed on into obscurity as well....
i have posted like 6 times in this thread. you guys are funny. just because i dont verbally fellate you with thanks for your input on my work, positive or not, doesn't mean that i dont accept the critique. how would you know if i accepted it? what did i eat for breakfast this morning? you don't know.
i read the critique. i accepted it. sorry that i didnt say i'm going to go pick up a book on posing and study up. cause i'm not. i don't learn like that. instead, i might pay more attention to posing in photographs that i do like (no, not photographs that you like)
everybody who says i need to work on taking criticism better automagically gets skipped when i see their 'critique'. were you guys the socially awkward ones who talked too much in highschool? didn't know when to end the conversation?
it should go something like this:
work is posted.
critique is given.
critique is read.
rinse, wash, repeat.
NOT:
work is posted
critique is given
artist, then, regardless of who gives input, blindly follows the advice of whoever offers it, and posts their required thank you's
why would i take the advice of someone who's work i dont respect or admire? i dont want to be ANYTHING like prof_fate or take a photo that resembles one of his. i really don't. thats my PERSONAL PREFERENCE, dummies. he might push product in mass amounts, but i sure as hell won't take his artistic input and do anything productive with it.
but lets say someone who posts work on here that i do admire, respect, or find pleasing decides to give me constructive criticism. you best believe i am taking notes, people.
Sergio, there's quite a difference between acknowledging that a critique exists and actually using it for a constructive and developmental purpose. Prof_fate was one of the only people who gave you a lengthy constructive criticism on your photos -- although laced with a bit of pretense -- and your response was to defend your style and the interest in your photos. You also went so far as to say that prof_fate is "behind the times" and is out of touch with his photographic subjects, which is offensive and insulting. Not to mention the insults you've hurled at myself and at the other posters on this board. Is this really your definition of "accepting critique"? It probably would have been better if you hadn't responded at all.
You make a good point about not "taking the advice" of someone whose work you do not respect or admire. That's fine. If you don't want to risk your photos being exposed to people whose work you may not admire, then you shouldn't be posting them on an internet forum.
Interesting thing about posting photos to FM, which I used to do a lot, is that I used receive a ton of shallow praise, but I stopped doing that since I realized that kind of "constructive criticism" never got me anywhere. And it sometimes came from people whose work was not even up to my own standards, so it didn't really offer me a chance to improve my work.
mdude85 wrote:
Interesting thing about posting photos to FM, which I used to do a lot, is that I used receive a ton of shallow praise, but I stopped doing that since I realized that kind of "constructive criticism" never got me anywhere. And it sometimes came from people whose work was not even up to my own standards, so it didn't really offer me a chance to improve my work.
Good luck in the future !
cmon! who doesnt like praise. but seriously, praise is just like critique in that it probably means more and is more helpful coming from someone whos work you like or admire. i certainly dont mind some praise. an affirmation that others like your work is important, imo. it can also help in identifying what youre doing well vs what you may need to improve on. also, i dont think the primary reason everyone on this board posts their work is simply for tips to improve. if that were the case i probably wouldnt look or read the board. im not just hear to offer critique and help people, i also want to see photography that inspires me
People post for any number of reasons. To show off (feed their ego -they like the atta boys and dont' take criticism well), to ask questions, to learn, for feeback, for shock value and probably 10 more reasons. Sometimes you know why it's posted and other times you have to guess at the poster's motives. Regardless, you post something on a forum you are inviting a response. Unless the forum is controlled by you or only populated by fans, friends and relatives that like you, you may get responses you don't like.
You post what you think is the best image you've ever made only to find out there's flaws, and perhaps many flaws. It sucks to hear that, I know (been there, still there only now the flaws are more subtle). All it means is you've not mastered photography. That's a good thing as it means you won't be bored with it anytime soon.
You learn from critiques from folks more advanced/accomplished/experienced/knowledgable than you. You learn little from the guy that says "great picture!". If you want that all the time then go ask your mom what she thinks of your work. You won't learn much but you're ego will be massaged and you'll think great thoughts of yourself.
If you want to learn something who do you ask? Say you need to fix a leaky pipe. You can ask your mom, your little brother, the guy in the aisle at Home Depot or perhaps the employee in plumbing, the cashier or a plumber that's been doing it for 15 years, 40 hours week and then some.
Now the plumber wants money, so perhaps you'll opt for one of the avenues of free advice. But then you know what free advice is worth, right? Who's advice are you gonna take? The home depot guy might tell you to get $400 in pipe and tools. You'll think he's nuts. Your little brother says $5 worth of tape will fix it fine. Mom says get a bucket and let it just let leak.
The cheap, easy solutions are not gonna work long term.
Perhaps you really do need $400 in tools and pipe. Eventually you will come to that conclusion - but perhaps long after you've flooded your house.
Ignore what I and other have said. We are the plumbers and home depot guy. We know what we're talking about but you think Mom and lil' bro got you all hooked up. There is no easy path to being a good photographer. It's easier for some than others for sure, but it's not easy even for those that make it look that way now.
Anyone done any kind of poll here to gauge the relative knowledge and experience of the posters? I pretty much gave up on the wedding forum when such a poll revealed that some 70% knew nothing about wedding photography - around half had never shot a wedding. So if they know nothing about it how can they possibly give good advice on the subject? Most couldn't. They praised those that gave 'em atta boys. It was a matter of the One Eye Guy being the king of Blind Man Valley. Doesn't mean the king can see well, but to the blind he's awesome.
prof_fate, you are trying so hard to accomplish so little. i told you, your photos suck in my eyes. like, red light district suck. to others, they may not!
understand how this goes both ways? you dont like my photos, but many others do.
i simply will not use critique from photographers who do not create work that speaks to me. you can continue to waste your time if you'd like.
Sergio Mottola wrote:
prof_fate, you are trying so hard to accomplish so little. i told you, your photos suck in my eyes. like, red light district suck. to others, they may not!
understand how this goes both ways? you dont like my photos, but many others do.
i simply will not use critique from photographers who do not create work that speaks to me. you can continue to waste your time if you'd like.
Thanks for being so kind as to say my photos suck, like a dirty whore.
I don't think I ever said that about your photos, but your attitude, well, that is another issue.
I wish I knew all there was to know at my age, let alone at 18. Must be nice to not have to learn anything more about photography.
See, what you have yet to learn is unless you do keep learning you'll never get better. And you're a long way from realizing you can learn something from everyone.
So how does if feel to know that you've reached your pinnacle and there's no where to go but down?
I'm not asking if you like it or not, just CAN YOU DO IT? I think not. You lack the skills and knowledge to be able to do it. I can make pictures like yours. I did -before I knew better.
Oh heck, I guess I'll just come back. But next time, I really REALLY am quitting forever! 
Post up your link and show everyone your work. I've seen it and do not like it at all.