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Archive 2009 · TS with macro?

  
 
jcolwell
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p.2 #1 · TS with macro?


Very nice.


Mar 07, 2009 at 07:49 AM
Drew_Persson
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p.2 #2 · TS with macro?


jcolwell wrote:
I use my 5D with the Mirex and M645 macro lenses (C 80/4N, reverser, and A 120/4), and I also use the M645 Auto-Bellows N.


That's a great little rig. Looks like the rear standard doesn't have any movements?



Mar 07, 2009 at 05:37 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #3 · TS with macro?


Drew_Persson wrote:
That's a great little rig. Looks like the rear standard doesn't have any movements?


Yes, you're right. The rear standard is fixed, but you can add a little something if you attach a Mirex T-S adapter at the back.



Mar 07, 2009 at 06:24 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #4 · TS with macro?


Much obliged for the info. I'll need to think this over.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 08, 2009 at 05:23 AM
JohnJ
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p.2 #5 · TS with macro?


jcolwell wrote:
I use my 5D with the Mirex and M645 macro lenses (C 80/4N, reverser, and A 120/4), and I also use the M645 Auto-Bellows N, here shown with SMC Bellows-Takumar 100/4. I often carry an EF 100/2.8 Macro in my pack when I'm on a walkabout.


A couple of questions.

1/ Do you get infinity focus witht the Mamiya lenses and Mirex (tilt) adapter? I'm interested in using them for normal shooting, not macro.

2/ How do you attach the Mamiya bellows to the Canon, I can't seem to find and M645 to EOS adapters?

Thanks
JJ



Mar 08, 2009 at 08:03 AM
mawz
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p.2 #6 · TS with macro?


JohnJ wrote:
A couple of questions.

1/ Do you get infinity focus witht the Mamiya lenses and Mirex (tilt) adapter? I'm interested in using them for normal shooting, not macro.

2/ How do you attach the Mamiya bellows to the Canon, I can't seem to find and M645 to EOS adapters?

Thanks
JJ


1. Yes, you should get infinity with the Mirex adaptor. Infinity is not a huge issue with approximately 30mm in register diffference between the 645 mounts and most 35mm mounts.

2. Fotodiox among others sells adaptors for M645 to Nikon F and Canon EOS



Mar 08, 2009 at 08:07 AM
JohnJ
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p.2 #7 · TS with macro?


mawz wrote:
1. Yes, you should get infinity with the Mirex adaptor. Infinity is not a huge issue with approximately 30mm in register diffference between the 645 mounts and most 35mm mounts.

2. Fotodiox among others sells adaptors for M645 to Nikon F and Canon EOS


Thanks for that. Sounds like the M645 lenses are worth looking into. I hate it when I sell stuff and then need to buy them back again. I had an M645 kit many moons ago, last century in fact!

JJ



Mar 08, 2009 at 08:22 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #8 · TS with macro?


Just saw this. Any ideas about the differences between this and the Mirex + 120/4 ?

TIA.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 11, 2009 at 05:32 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #9 · TS with macro?


The Zoerk MFS tilt adapter is a specialized macro tool. The Zoerk adapter includes a focus helicoid that offers infinity to 1:2 focus distance range with a Rodenstock 80mm f/4 APO Rodagon enlarger lens (see Zoerk site link, below). Enlarger lenses with a longer focal length would probably require an extension tube to achieve infinity focus, and even more extension tube to reach macro magnification. Enlarger lenses with shorter focal lengths would probably focus "past infinity". The Mirex T-S adapter mounts a medium format lens at the proper distance from the sensor to allow full use of the lens original range of focus distances - you can get macro if you mount a macro lens, like the M645 A 120/4 APO Macro. With both adapters, you can add extension tubes to increase macro magnification.

The Zoerk MFS tilt adapter offers more tilt movement than the Mirex T-S adapter (30 deg vs. 10 deg tilt), but the usable amount of tilt depends on the lens. In the article that you linked, David Clapp states it offers 20 deg tilt with the APO Rodagon that he uses (actually, he says 20mm, which is incorrect units). The Zoerk tilt adapter has no shift. The Mirex offers 15mm in either direction. You can mount the Zoerk tilt adapter on a Zoerk Pro Shift adapter to get 20mm of shift; however, this increases the lens register, and so it will increase macro magnification, but will reduce the maximum focus distance.

I find it very convenient to have both tilt and shift in one the compact Mirex T-S adapter. Generally, I use shift for perspective control on wider lenses and tilt for plane of focus control on normal and longer lenses.

When I want more than 10 deg tilt, I use the Mamiya Auto-Bellows that is shown in a photo I posted earlier in this thread. It allows +/- 20 deg tilt and +/- 12 deg swing, as well as +/- 13mm rise and +/- 15mm shift, with all movements simultaneous if desired. You can add the Mirex T-S adapter at the end of the bellows (as you need a M645 to EOS adapter anyway), to get 10 deg more tilt. I've modified old Pentacon 6 to M645 adapters so that I can now use enlarger and large format lenses with my Auto-Bellows and Mirex T-S adapter, as well as Mamiya M645, Hasselblad C and Pentacon 6 lenses.

If you really want to investigate photography with large tilt and shift movements, then you should consider getting a large format 4x5 field camera, which offers more movements on both front and back standards, and on the film back as well for some models.

The price comparison that David Clapp shows at the end of the article that you linked shows that the Zoerk with a fine APO enlarger lens costs less than an EF 180L macro lens, and so does the Mirex with a M645 A 120/4 macro lens. The best solution depends on many factors. For me, it's the Mirex, for you it might be something else. Good luck.

Mirex http://mirex-adapter.de/tilt_shift_adapter.htm
Zoerk http://www.zoerk.com/



Mar 11, 2009 at 07:06 AM
JohnJ
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p.2 #10 · TS with macro?


jcolwell wrote:
If you really want to investigate photography with large tilt and shift movements, then you should consider getting a large format 4x5 field camera, which offers more movements on both front and back standards, and on the film back as well for some models.



Just a quick note. This path, using 4x5, can be quite problematic as I've found. I've been using a Sinar F/P with a 1dsMk2 attached to the back specifically for large amounts of tilt and at infinity focus. Basically I'm emulating the 'model' look with very narrow selective focus.

The problem with most 4x5 cameras is that they don't really allow the lens and camera to be close enough for either large movements or for relatively wide lenses. I have an APO Rodagon N 80/4, I used to use it on my enlarger until a few years ago, and I find I can't get any where near infinity focus with it on 4x5. No doubt it would be great if I wanted to do macro, but I don't! It is very easy to attach to a Copal 1 lens board, you just need the 39mm retaining ring to hold it onto the board.

I get infinity with a Rodenstock Sironar-N 150/5.6 MC, and it's actually quite sharp, but a 150mm lens is just too long to be practical. I don't have a recessed lens board but this is really mandatory for getting the lens a little closer to the sensor. That's the next step.

Oh, 4x5's are great for pin hole photo's too! You can zoom in and out. The focal length is basically the distance between the hole and the sensor/Polaroid/film/whatever. Hours of fun!

JJ



Mar 11, 2009 at 07:59 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #11 · TS with macro?


Jim, what would you recommend me to get if I…

1. Almost always shoot handheld (i.e. bellows are out of the question).
2. Generally want as much magnification as possible and as much working distance as possible (I don't use flash for macro. Don't like the looks of this).
3. Have a Kenko set of tubes but rarely use them (i.e. the max magnification of the adapter + lens should be as high as possible).
4. Generally want to maximize DoF at open apertures.
5. Want to get the nicest bokeh possible.
6. Am fine with heavier setup but would rather go as light and as compact as possible. I have a 70-200/2.8 IS but I recently bought a 135/2 to serve as my lightweight tele to carry everywhere. I take the zoom only when I know I'll need the IS and/or zoom capability.
7. Am not considering price to be the most important parameter.

The easiest way for me is to simply get the TS 90/2.8 and add my Kenko set to them. However, before doing this I'd like to explore other options. It seems the ones offered here will allow me to get more magnification, more working distance and more DoF control, all for roughly the same weight, size and price.

I have a 40D but will probably get a D700 later this year. In light of this, should I get a TS adapter for the F mount and add an F->EF adapter? This seems like a good idea to me. Any thoughts?

TIA.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 11, 2009 at 08:02 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #12 · TS with macro?


Yakim, sorry I didn't reply sooner. I find it easy to characterise performance and discuss trade-offs, and I make decisions for myself fairly quickly, but it's not so easy to make a specific recommendation for somebody else who is equally or more knowledgable in photography. So, I wanted to think about it for a bit before replying. As you well know, your requirements for handheld macro shooting with high DOF and no flash are demanding and perhaps not mutually supportive, but they're valid nonetheless. I'll make two specific recommendations, based on what you said in your most recent posting.

First, if you want a really light macro solution for everyday walkabouts, then consider getting a Canon 500D close-up auxiliary lens, it's a two-element achromatic closeup filter that provides very good IQ within its working range. I have one with me most of the time. It doesn't provide great working distance and it doesn't provide a wide range of macro magnifications, but it does let you get shots that you couldn't otherwise. I have a 77mm 500D for use with my 70-200/2.8L IS. I haven't tried it with my 135/2L (with 72mm filter thread), but I'll give it a shot this weekend and post what I think about it.

Second, for true macro I suggest you make your choice between the TS-E 90/2.8 with tubes and a Mirex M645 to M42 adapter with Mamiya M645 macro lens. As I see it, the advantage for the TS-E 90 is that it allows you to have the tilt and shift axes parallel or orthogonal (changing the axes requires benchwork), while the Mirex tilt and shift axes are fixed and parallel. So you can configure the TS-E 90 for tilt down and shift up (axes orthogonal), but you can't do this for the Mirex - if it tilts down, then it shifts to the side (parallel axes). As I said earlier, this isn't a problem for me, as I usually use shift with wide angle lenses for perspective control, and tilt with normal and longer lenses for plane of focus control. The Mirex has many advantages: more shift (with less vignetting at large shifts); more tilt; and, the ability to use any of the Mamiya M645 series of lenses. For your current purposes, the main contenders are the C 80/4 N Macro and A 120/4 Macro M (APO) - I say "N" because that's what I use, but the "plain C" is probably exactly the same. The 80/4 goes to 1:2 on its own, and 1:1 with a dedicated "macro spacer" (i.e. tube). The 120/4 goes 1:1 on its own and it has a longer working distance. The 80/4 is smaller and lighter, and has some dedicated accessories like a reversing ring that let you take it to high magnification, especially on the Auto-Bellows N.

If you subscribe to the principle, as I do, that the best solution for taking macro photos is a macro lens, then the choice becomes a little more clear. If you want to emphasise longer working distance and handheld shooting (which isn't good for high magnification work), then the Mamiya A 120/4 Macro M is probably the solution. Also, you'll find it difficult to mount the TS-E 90/2.8 on a Nikon body, but anything you buy for a Mirex M645 to M42 adapter will work on both Canon and Nikon bodies (plus a few others).

I hope this is helpful. Good luck, Jim.



Mar 12, 2009 at 06:27 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #13 · TS with macro?


Jim, I really appreciate your answers. They are very useful but alas, I am not done….

Please look at this E-bay link. The price range of the 120/4 macro is enormous: From 325$ to 1550$. It looks suspicious. What should I be looking for when buying this lens? Are there versions of this lens? If so, how do they differ?

KEH has an EX one for 400$ and a LN one for 616$. BTW, I e-mailed them 6 days ado about the EX one but got no reply…

Adorama has several from E+ at 350$ to 2044$.

This B&H lens is the only one which states APO. None of the other ones do. Is it better?

What is going on here?

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 12, 2009 at 07:22 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #14 · TS with macro?


With respect to the prices, you're right that they're all over the map. The more expensive ones are (or should be) the ones designed for the Mamiya 645 AF bodies. The lens is still manual focus, but the aperture is controlled by the body, and there is no manual aperture ring - don't get one of them by mistake. The easiest way to distinguish between them is to see the aperture ring (or note its absence) on a photo of the item, or to ask about the manual aperture ring.

About the APO designation, the MF version does not actually contain this on the lens labeling, so many people don't mention it. Mamiya descriptions do state that it is APO, and so some sellers mention it explicitly, such as http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/126972-REG/Mamiya_210_227_Telephoto_Macro_120mm_f_4.html#features. Too bad that KEH didn't answer your email. I prefer to deal with them and B&H. OTOH, I've also dealt with Adorama with good results, so I'd seriously consider their offer for one in [E+] condition for $350.

It looks like the first one in your eBay link is the MF version (price is high). The second one says it's for the AF system, but the small photo looks like the MF version. I generally stay away from alternative lens auctions with high "Buy It Now" prices, unless it's something rare. I bought my M645 A 120/4 Macro M on eBay last December in [E+] condition for about $350 US, before shipping & taxes.

As for not being done... I don't think many of us on these forums are done, until it's really all over.




Mar 12, 2009 at 07:53 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #15 · TS with macro?


Apologies but I didn't understand the APO issue. Are there two versions or not? I looked at the pictures and can't see APO anywhere.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Mar 12, 2009 at 08:26 AM
jcolwell
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p.2 #16 · TS with macro?


There are two versions of the lens, one for M645 manual focus bodies, and the other for 645 auto focus bodies. Both are APO lenses. The manual focus version does not say "APO" on the lens. I don't know if the AF version says "APO" or not.


Mar 12, 2009 at 08:30 AM
Roland W
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p.2 #17 · TS with macro?


Even though you stated you did not want to use flash, you should consider that with the right lighting modifiers or the right specialized flash, it can make good handheld macro shots possible that are entirely impossible with out flash. And if you do want to use flash for some situations, then you are very likely going to also want auto diaphragm operation to make good use of the extra light from a flash, and still be able to view and judge focus of your whole field of view through the lens. Mention was made above that you are going to loose the auto diaphragm with any of the alternative solutions, but will still have it with the Canon 90 T/S with Canon EF extension tubes. The 500D is the only other aid mentioned that can maintain auto diaphragm. If you were doing fixed setup still shots, many of the great solutions discussed will work, but for field hand held, life is much more complicated. So carefully weigh all options including the Canon T/S route before proceeding. And then of course enjoy the creative exploration that tilt and shift capability brings to your photographic life.


Mar 12, 2009 at 08:47 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #18 · TS with macro?


jcolwell wrote:
There are two versions of the lens, one for M645 manual focus bodies, and the other for 645 auto focus bodies. Both are APO lenses. The manual focus version does not say "APO" on the lens. I don't know if the AF version says "APO" or not.


So the optics are the same? If so, I'll order the one from Adorama. Seems like a good combination of price, shape and place.

Best regards,
Yakim.



Mar 12, 2009 at 09:03 AM
Anden
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p.2 #19 · TS with macro?


Roland W wrote:
Even though you stated you did not want to use flash, you should consider that with the right lighting modifiers or the right specialized flash, it can make good handheld macro shots possible that are entirely impossible with out flash. And if you do want to use flash for some situations, then you are very likely going to also want auto diaphragm operation to make good use of the extra light from a flash, and still be able to view and judge focus of your whole field of view through the lens. Mention was made above that you are
...Show more

+1. Well said.

A




Mar 12, 2009 at 09:07 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.2 #20 · TS with macro?


Roland W wrote:
Even though you stated you did not want to use flash, you should consider that with the right lighting modifiers or the right specialized flash, it can make good handheld macro shots possible that are entirely impossible with out flash. And if you do want to use flash for some situations, then you are very likely going to also want auto diaphragm operation to make good use of the extra light from a flash, and still be able to view and judge focus of your whole field of view through the lens. Mention was made above that you are
...Show more

1. I am not anti-flash. I just rather do without it. I've been shooting macro for several years (100/2.8 USM, 60/2.8 USM, Kenko extension tubes, Nikon 6T) and never felt the need to add a macro flash. I have a 580EX and OCSC II that I could use as an alternative to a dedicated macro flash but again, it mostly stay at home.

2. I am leaning towards the alternative route and not the 90/2.8 because it simply offer more advantages: Ability to work with a Nikon body, more magnification, more working distance and more DoF control, all for roughly the same weight, size and price.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.





Mar 12, 2009 at 09:12 AM
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