fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

3 4 5 end

Archive 2008 · Amateur Etiquette

manyquestions
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #1 · Amateur Etiquette

phil hawkins wrote:
It can be explained by saying you would not go to Denny's with a sack lunch from McDonald's and order water and then sit and eat. You cannot bring food into a movie theater. You cannot bring food into an arena for a concert or sports event... This is a well-accepted concept, and in this day of digital it's time to extend it to weddings... The time has come!!

Bad example. People go to food vendors for food and attend movies for the experience of watching a film while eating junk food. Your argument is more akin to having people tell their friends about a film cuts into the market for professional film critics. Your example is similar to saying that people taking vacation photos are cutting the lunch of professional landscape photographers and that by shooting a picture of that annoying bird outside, I'm threatening wildlife pros.

You do realise that most people turning up at a wedding don't actually see it as nothing but a photo opportunity, right? For the population at large, weddings are about celebrating the marriage of a couple and having a party at the reception.

My original etiquette question was prompted by the number of pros who found that amateurs were screwing up their shots, hanging around, causing problems and generally making the job harder. Turning that around to complain about theft of income detracts for the real problem and makes it look like wedding photographers are just looking to squeeze every last cent from their customers. It must *really* burn you up that people can buy a scanner for $20 and scan all their prints. You could add a clause that nobody who owns a scanner is allowed in, either.

Looking at the last three weddings I went to, I didn't get copies of the pro's photographs. They went to the B&G and close family members, but they don't go out to every guest. People's happy snaps aren't necessarily cutting your lunch. Sure, if people make an arse of themselves shooting over your shoulder and getting in the way, they're a problem. But getting riled up about Auntie Jane with a P&S stealing your income? Are times that lean?

Maybe tell people to leave their fancy cameras at home and provide a big stack of disposables and let people help themselves. You could even turn a dime selling them the disposables and then making margin on having your lab print them or put them all on a big website. The quality difference will remind people why they hired a pro, too.

Besides, without cameras in the crowd, who is going to capture the funny uncle trying to bed the bridesmaid, the plump aunt falling asleep at the table or the priest sipping from a hip-flask?

Oct 22, 2008 at 10:14 PM

phil hawkins
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #2 · Amateur Etiquette

manyquestions wrote:
Are times that lean?

YES!!!

Welcome to the conversation! That's EXACTLY the point!! Fewer brides are booking typical full-cost photographers because uncle Fred has the 40D and he's a pretty good photographer, and also because of the economic climate we are in. Dad cannot get a LOC on his house any more to pay for Barbie's wedding. Brides that are booking pros are chiseling, chiseling, chiseling... Screw that! I'm at the end of my patience with brides; they can pay or do without.

I have yet to shoot a wedding in which someone didn't have at least one high-end amateur camera, and was shooting like mad. If you think that kind of activity doesn't eat into your post-affair print sales, you're crazy. And yes, we ARE respectfully but adamantly trying to squeeze every last cent out of the B&G!!! Not unfairly, not unexpectedly, and not in any kind of underhanded manner, but squeeze every last cent YOU BET!! And I don't apologize for it!! Why should I? I am a profit-making enterprise, and I do NOT apologize for trying to make as much money as I can with each booking!

Don't try to make me or any other photographer out as some Simon Legree-type thief just because I want to maximize my profit potential on weddings. People bringing cameras to weddings WILL NOT buy prints. And they are likely as not to give some to the bride, and the parents, and the bridal party, etc etc etc which also cuts in to my sales.

Squeeze every last cent? You damn right.

Oct 22, 2008 at 10:32 PM

bonnerkopf
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #3 · Amateur Etiquette

phil hawkins wrote:
Seriously, I am thinking about banning all other cameras at my weddings. They want pictures? I am the official wedding photographer and you can buy them from me. Otherwise, you do without.

.

With all due respect, the wedding isn't about the photographer. Sure it can get hectic and so on and all that has been said, but that is part of life nowadays. We have to adapt. The bride and groom and guests are what the wedding is about. Yes, people should not do all of the crap they do, etc. No argument there.

I would think that no matter how good a photog is, or thinks he is, the bookings would dry up fast with an attempt at banning cameras at weddings. Maybe that would have worked a few decades ago, but people, most anyway, would not put up with it these days.

Oct 22, 2008 at 10:42 PM

nsieve
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #4 · Amateur Etiquette

well said....

Oct 22, 2008 at 11:03 PM

phil hawkins
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #5 · Amateur Etiquette

bonnerkopf wrote:
With all due respect, the wedding isn't about the photographer. Sure it can get hectic and so on and all that has been said, but that is part of life nowadays. We have to adapt. The bride and groom and guests are what the wedding is about. Yes, people should not do all of the crap they do, etc. No argument there.

I would think that no matter how good a photog is, or thinks he is, the bookings would dry up fast with an attempt at banning cameras at weddings. Maybe that would have worked a few decades ago,...Show more →

That may be true... it remains to be seen, then doesn't it?

Look, I know full well in reality it probably would not sell. But photogs have GOT to take a firmer grip on those things that impede his or her ability to make money and do what you were retained to do. As a group I think we rollover way to easily to demands from the B&G and are way too timid about doing everything palatable and honorable to maximize income. People are many times way too concerned about being seen as a nice guy than putting money in their pocket, and these guys with the D60s are ONLY concerned about being a nice guy and NOTHING about money.

Simply adding what many photographers are already doing in their contracts that no one is allowed to shoot the pros setups will send a message that will be heard. The message will be sent. That's all I'm saying.

Oct 22, 2008 at 11:14 PM

bonnerkopf
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #6 · Amateur Etiquette

Who is going to police it? How will the guests be informed of it?

Oct 22, 2008 at 11:17 PM

phil hawkins
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #7 · Amateur Etiquette

bonnerkopf wrote:
Who is going to police it? How will the guests be informed of it?

By adding to the invitation

"Please, no cameras allowed; professionals will be supplying all photos of our wedding".

And if someone brings one, you tell him or her to put it away; theoretically... Now, I realize that this would raise many eyebrows...

The better line would be "If you plan to bring a camera please be respectful of the professionals we have hired to document our wedding".

Oct 22, 2008 at 11:23 PM

jeremy_clay
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #8 · Amateur Etiquette

Personally, I do in post what uncle bob can't - on top of that, selling digital discs at a very *healthy* price takes away from my worries of wannabes undercutting even more, and brides will pay it for those files - especially after the attempted squeeze for Prints or Nothing from the three other pros they've talked to while getting quotes. Evolve or die imo.

Oct 22, 2008 at 11:28 PM

yellowducky
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #9 · Amateur Etiquette

Interesting thread.

I think you are dreaming Phil when it comes to your first version of invitation modification. Most people would ignore it or use cell phones or figure 'its just a point n shoot' or 'well, I will bring my camera just in case' and the B+G would not be running around policing it. It would make you as the photog seeming like the big dick to everyone trying to police it rather than concentrating on the already challenging task at hand. I believe your view is entirely too self centered here - understandable yes, reasonable and practical, not so much. Heck, some would get upset at seeig a photognazi running around and try and get pictures just out of spite. The second version however is entirely reasonable.

I realize it must be a nightmare having the Uncle Bob's of the world shooting over your shoulder. I would definitely be quite adamant on getting those people put in their place. That said, I don't see those guys actually cutting into your income - even if they manage a brilliant shot over your shoulder. I could be mistaken here but 99% of people going to a wedding are not going to be buying pictures of it regardless of how good the work may be. Even if no cameras were allowed, personally I would still not buy wedding pictures of someone else's wedding I attended. So your target audience is still the B+G even if your dream world of 'no other cameras' came to fruition. That one 'stolen' shot over your shoulder is quite likely 1) not as good as yours (you are the pro right?) and 2) a one off from one person versus your whole package of work.

99% of the shots taken at a wedding by the non pro are going to mediocre crap anyway - so maybe 10 photos from 10 different people might make it to the B+G where they say 'thanks' but it was likely not even a shot you would ever have took (its either mediocre work of someone falling over drunk or phenom 1 in 1000 shots someone got that worked out well - which also you might not have been shooting either). The B+G, if they hired a pro, are not going to be thinking 'thank goodness Uncle Bob got that shot over the shoulder of the pro and now that saved me buying one picture from the pro'. They will be looking at the whole package and surely your work as a package has much more value than Uncle Bob's one good shot (maybe over your shoulder or maybe of something else) and his picture of Aunt Sally falling over on her backside drunk?

I realize its a tough job for the pro. I realize it would definitely be annoying having these other 'hacks' shooting over your shoulder. I realize people can get in the way on occassion but as the pro its your job to push past (and people ought to understand why or its your job to say 'hey, this is my job, excuse me I need to be in front of you').

Oct 23, 2008 at 12:19 AM

phil hawkins
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #10 · Amateur Etiquette

jeremy_clay wrote:
Personally, I do in post what uncle bob can't - on top of that, selling digital discs at a very *healthy* price takes away from my worries of wannabes undercutting even more, and brides will pay it for those files - especially after the attempted squeeze for Prints or Nothing from the three other pros they've talked to while getting quotes. Evolve or die imo.

Jeremy,

Your work is the bomb, my friend, totally out of my league, try as I may. I would like to hear your input on this subject; I admit to being very frustrated with the situation I'm in, so maybe I stand to learn something or to have my perspective altered.

BTW, if I'm ever in Toronto, can I hold your lens cap? I'd love to follow you around on a wedding... You have the benefit of a tremendous shooting environment, but your post and compositional elements is superb.

please, impart your thoughts on this matter.

BTW, the images you posted on the other thread showing the setup was way cool. Thanks for that.

Oct 23, 2008 at 12:47 AM

DB
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #11 · Amateur Etiquette

Some advice I have heard from a few different professionals is to talk to the Uncle Bob's with the cameras. Give them some advice on a shot or two. Then when you are taking formals, tell everyone with a camera that they can take a photo AFTER you have taken one. This can actually be more important for the people with the P&S cameras -- the red focus lights and flashes can really ruin a formal photo (trust me, I know).

Then after you are done taking a picture, step back and let everyone else crowd in. This may mean that some of them have a few shots of your formal set ups -- but they don't have the eye, ability to judge exposure correctly, or lighting that you have. And most brides will want the more professional looking shot from you. Your PP, print quality, and everything else will sell itself. And if you are kind to the other amateurs, they will respect your boundaries when you need them to.

And if you are still worried about losing sales, change your business plan. Charge a whole lot more up front and assume you won't get any print sales. Or charge a lot and include X prints with that. Assume that there will be amateurs taking photos.

BUT -- I really like the phrasing, "If you plan to bring a camera please be respectful of the professionals we have hired to document our wedding". This is important regardless of whether you let the amateurs take photos over your shoulder.

Oct 23, 2008 at 07:49 AM

jeremy_clay
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #12 · Amateur Etiquette

phil hawkins wrote:
Jeremy,
I would like to hear your input on this subject; I admit to being very frustrated with the situation I'm in, so maybe I stand to learn something or to have my perspective altered.

Phil,

Thanks for the kudos.

As mentioned, it's very difficult to clause a contract or get mentioned on the invitation about 'no other photographers allowed' - besides the B&G, often people are seeing relatives they haven't in perhaps a long time, and to ask the party not to bring their camera(s) will just be a reason for them to book someone else who allows it instead of you.

I make it pretty straight forward. I recommend that guests with semi/pro gear do their best to refrain from shooting (or bringing their cameras), and show them some uncle bob-ruined shots as to what can happen. It's approached from the angle that they are paying me 2+, 3+, 5+ thousand whatever to be there to provide this service for them, and that it puts me in a very awkward spot if it does occur, because as they are family and I'm just a dude with cameras, I can't just tell them off, so prevention is key. I make it very well known I am great with people taking pictures, but that it is very important they are seated when everyone else is seated, that they are out of the aisle when all the other guests are, etc and this is pitched so that the BG get the best possible images (true), not that 'they get in my way when I work'.

Regarding formals, it's rarely a non-strobed affair, and I ask anyone in attendance to refrain from shooting until they've seen the strobe go off three times before getting their shots (3 shots per pose usually). Hell, I'll move out of the way and they can shoot from where I did. I as well use the '...light sensitive studio lights that can be triggered while others are using flashes on their camera, so if guests could wait until I've shot, by all means, have at it once I'm done' approach for this. Lighting can be a bit complex at times, and rarely have I had people take any sort of issue with waiting until I've got my shots..in addition, technique and lighting setup helps to separate my shots from the Bobs, even when it's the same posing and location.

So, to make a lot of typing pr�cis'ed, I tell BG others with cams is fine usually, a bad idea when the persons don't respect me or the couples wishes for great photos, show them why this is and the negative effects it can have on their results, and that, though I will do what I can to avoid it, I cannot be held responsible for others trying to get photographs and ruining mine, the ones they are paying the bucks for. My way, I guess, but certainly not the only way.

phil hawkins wrote:
BTW, if I'm ever in Toronto, can I hold your lens cap? I'd love to follow you around on a wedding... You have the benefit of a tremendous shooting environment, but your post and compositional elements is superb.

BTW, the images you posted on the other thread showing the setup was way cool. Thanks for that.

I'm the most goofball dude to be around at a wedding, it would probably be embarrassing for you to be "...the guy helping that other guy in the David Hasselhoff tee". The setup shots I take for myself to make sure I look as sexy as I think I do, but you're welcome!

Oct 23, 2008 at 07:54 AM

Polar Star
Offline
•
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #13 · Amateur Etiquette

phil hawkins wrote:
I have reached a point that I am no longer willing to tolerate B&G laziness or disrespect... and that I need to beef up my contract to protect my profits and profit potential.

Interesting, though a whole different ball game from P&S shooters/amateurs getting in your way. What constitutes B&G disrespect?

To answer another question posted earlier: no, I doubt that the people using their P&S from the pews will print the results out. But not because they realize that the pics are bad; rather because that is increasingly not how such shooters consume their photos. What they *will* do is post them to facebook or myspace or twitter or snapfish and e-mail their friends with the gallery address. What they *won't* do is take two minutes to crop or sharpen or adjust the colors a little - easy stuff that they could do in Picasa for nothing - and the pics will be crap as a result.

Oct 23, 2008 at 08:07 AM

Scott Mosher
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #14 · Amateur Etiquette

I try to bring as much gear as I can when I'm a guest at weddings. I've found that if I bring my PW and the pro has some lights setup, I can borrow his setup when he's not taking pictures. I'll also try to hand out my biz cards so people know where they can download my pics for free.

jk

Actually when I do goto a wedding as a guest, depending on how well I know the B&G, I'll bring my D200 & 35-105 AIS lens or my 70-200. At a friends beach wedding, I just took a few pics of the ceremony from my chair (mostly of my wife, one of the bridesmaids). If I do bring my 70-200 and I plan on shooting more than just the B&G, I make sure I shoot whats going on behind the photographers back so I don't get the same pictures as him.

Oct 23, 2008 at 09:30 AM

Craig Gillette
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #15 · Amateur Etiquette

It's not necessarily impossible to kick everyone of the area for "formals," but it probably depends a lot on how everything else is arranged as well. Something else has to be more interesting and social than the shooting or at least have sufficient distance separating the guests and reception activities so that you can get the necessary people for the pictures in there and the others have something better to do or some place to go. If the setting works and the "family" buys in, you don't need awkward contractual problems. If the venue doesn't support the separation and they didn't plan for it and the boss's guests don't buy in, contract clauses probably won't get the pro what he or she wants.

The guests (even those with cameras) should be willing to leave the workers and the family alone to get the work done.

Oct 23, 2008 at 10:37 AM

McGrattan
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #16 · Amateur Etiquette

If I'm going to a family/friend wedding I leave all the gear at home.

1. If I have a camera with me I'll be framing shots and picking on things the hired photographer is missing the whole day, instead of enjoying myself.
2. I love the look of disappointment on the faces of family members that were planning on getting me to e-mail them any pictures I took over the course of the day

Oct 23, 2008 at 10:44 AM

rdutto01
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #17 · Amateur Etiquette

Hey Phil,
Another excellent contribution to an interesting thread!

Thank you,

Oct 23, 2008 at 11:54 AM

Rob Chisholm
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #18 · Amateur Etiquette

Hello everyone! I love this Forum -- as a non-wedding photographer, I think this forum is an amazing place, full of great general advice, plus I love hearing about all that goes into wedding photography.

That said, I am, as most are here, a half way decent photographer. I just make my money in another profession. So, of course, people who get married always ask me to bring the camera. And, having read these forums for a long time now, my answer is always a very polite NO WAY!

I really feel that providing photographic services for free (to anyone these days) makes people appreciate your work for what they paid for it-- nothing at all. Most of us pride ourselves in producing photographs that, we feel at least, are artistic and special. I know that when I am out shooting my family and also shoot a friend or friend's child and then produce a photo for them, they never seem to value that photo as something that took a bit of work (taking a good picture and then processing it appropraitely takes knowledge and skill -- that is not something that anybody with a digital rebel can do). Then, when these people get a great photo for "free", they often don't want to pay a real professional, as they don't value the work and think the price is too high (I mean, since a friend can do it for free, Joe Professional should to do it for nearly nothing, right?).

So, I think that we should leave the Uncle Bob stuff to the family members with the pocket cameras from Best Buy and put away our photographic skills out of respect for the professionals who are doing the real work. In my book, that allows me to enjoy the wedding, and the Bride and Groom to really enjoy all the excellent photos the pros take -- they paid for it, and they will appriate it all the more after seeing all the crapola the Uncle Bobs take with the digital elphs.

--Rob

Oct 23, 2008 at 11:05 PM

Walter Koch
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.2 #19 · Amateur Etiquette

Tag.

Great stuff, well said.

Oct 24, 2008 at 01:31 AM

phil hawkins
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.2 #20 · Amateur Etiquette

Scott Mosher wrote:
I try to bring as much gear as I can when I'm a guest at weddings. I've found that if I bring my PW and the pro has some lights setup, I can borrow his setup when he's not taking pictures. I'll also try to hand out my biz cards so people know where they can download my pics for free.

jk

Actually when I do goto a wedding as a guest, depending on how well I know the B&G, I'll bring my D200 & 35-105 AIS lens or my 70-200. At a friends beach wedding, I just took a...Show more →

You're a real laugh riot!! :-) Thanks for the levity.

Oct 24, 2008 at 02:49 AM

1 2 3 4 5 end
FM Forums \| Wedding Photographer \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 4 5 end