Brad Barr wrote:
Week after week during my formals, you see the subjects looking away from my camera....and guess where into some guest with an iphone or p&s or rebel behind me taking the same shots
]
Be sure to include samples and explain to couples you interview why that happens, and why you would like to discourage such a thing from occurring with their photographs.
bjrhodes01 wrote:
That is exactly the type of opinion and attitude that I am talking about. If you can't adapt to what the B&G want, then what good are you? You are not acting like a professional. Rather, you are acting like a snob.
Just to defend myself (not that I have to), this was a very informal outdoor wedding and reception with people standing around everywhere. The pro did not have a second shooter at the request of the B&G b/c that was my (our) job. The "long lens" was clearly a signal by the B&G to stay well out of the way of the pro.
Besides, I'd like to see you "toss" a wedding guest that is doing exactly what was asked of them. That'll get you all kinds of future gigs, I'm sure.
In response to the second post...I was clearly playing 'devil's advocate' and trying to tell you what "stupid amateurs" may often think when confronted by a pro with a horrible attitude. It's, obviously, not my true opinion and you would have a right to be pissed off by any aspect of that initial paragraph. ...Show more →
YOu dont seem to grasp that what you are "giving" is exactly what we are "selling".
If in whatever job you have, someone came in and offered your boss the chance to have "your job" for free...do you think he's still gonna pay you NOT.
It makes no difference if it was a formal wedding or a backyard pig roast. It doesn't matter if the pro did or didnt have second. Our "job" is to document the day in photographs. How we do it is none of your concern. Just by doing what you describe you are by definition doing the same thing.....even if you are going about it differently. If they want you to document their day, fine. But there is a reason...that they hired me for 4K knowing full well that you are a photographer....maybe you should think about why. Maybe they'd rather you just sit back, relax and enjoy the day. You are guest, act like one. Eat, drink, party, dance, mingle....none of which goes terribly well with documenting the day.
Personally, I have no issues with a hobbyist there, provided they dont try to shoot along side me. But sadly....thats not usually the case. I go do the romantics and they want to tag along. No F'ing way. You can go do your own with them, but stay away from that section. Thats mine. Shoot grab n grins during the reception...no problem at all. Shoot from your seat during the ceremony...no problem. Get up and wander around...big problem. Start "calling" for the b&g to look at you...big problem. Jump out in the aisle during the processional...big problem.....
As far as giving the bride your stuff. Its gonna happen, and isnt something I can control. What I can control is being sure my stuff kicks butt. If yours does too then so be it, but I KNOW what mine are gonna look like. As such, I have built my packages such that if I never got another reprint order, thats just fine, cause my packages included more printes than you can shake a stick at anyway.
jeremy_clay wrote:
Be sure to include samples and explain to couples you interview why that happens, and why you would like to discourage such a thing from occurring with their photographs.
No, that simply adds stress to an already stressful occasion. Thats not my style. I dont want to plant any negative seeds or cast any fears or doubts about whats gonna happen....especially regarding their pix. Thats my job. I get the "big bux" (I wish), to adapt, overcome, persevere, just like Clint Eastwood said. I'm pretty good with people, and can usually ensure I get what I need in a nice way. If not then I'll just kick the bastard out to the street.. (jsut kidding). But in no way do i want to involve the bride and groom into this. They already have a lot to worry about....you know...the flowers are too small, theres a thread out of place, the best man is late, where are the f'ng riings, did you bring the license??
Brad Barr wrote:
That sounds really great. However, in fact most uncle bobs and debbie digitals snapshots are "good enough". Sure ours are better. Far better. They should be. But thats not the point. I had one Saturday....running around with a rebel and a cause...kit lens...pop up flash...flitting around taking hundreds of shots. Now what do you suppose she's gonna do with all of those? Give em away of course. Are mine better with a combination lighting set up during the reception Sure they are, but mine arent free. Its amazing how the demand for a quality shot drops when a free p.o.s image is a free alternative. ...Show more →
"As such, I have built my packages such that if I never got another reprint order, thats just fine, cause my packages included more prints than you can shake a stick at anyway."
This quote seems especially appropriate; the policy protects the photographer and, at the same time, lets the client know what the total photo costs would be. Other vendors present options and total costs; the photographer could do the same.
Your comments are invaluable and make a lot of practical sense.
Thanks so much for your well thought post in response to mine. It really helps...seriously. I don't want to piss y'all off or cause any harm to the photographs of a future B&G that ask me to also shoot at their wedding. I had a blast taking the photos and getting to also be a guest (drinking, mingling, dancing, eating, etc). I don't want your job and I certainly don't want to interfere with your job. So by pointing out all of the specific situations that amateur photographers can interfere and by making recommendations for amateur photographers...you have done me a huge favor!
Here's a few of those amateur shots. I'm sure the pro's were better, but I think mine (almost all taken at 200mm) are at least a little different from what they would have gotten from the pro alone...
Those shots are good basic snapshots. Most seem a touch underexposed and a few are blurry and/or out of focus. So, while it is true ANYONE can take snapshots, the real artwork often comes out via the pro.
There is usually a good reason that a top photographer can charge what s/he can.
I agree completely. Snapshots they are. The exposure is slightly off on most and some show motion/OOF/softness. Every one that I took was candid, none were posed. That was clearly one of the roles of the pro. I was just trying to find unique angles and compositions that were best captured with a 200mm (my little niche for that wedding). There's no way my work could ever replace the pro.
Brad Barr wrote:
No, that simply adds stress to an already stressful occasion. Thats not my style. I dont want to plant any negative seeds or cast any fears or doubts about whats gonna happen....especially regarding their pix. Thats my job. I get the "big bux" (I wish), to adapt, overcome, persevere, just like Clint Eastwood said. I'm pretty good with people, and can usually ensure I get what I need in a nice way. If not then I'll just kick the bastard out to the street.. (jsut kidding). But in no way do i want to involve the bride and groom into this. They already have a lot to worry about....you know...the flowers are too small, theres a thread out of place, the best man is late, where are the f'ng riings, did you bring the license??
to each their own. I show them when we're reviewing the contract, point by point, and they ask what it means, exactly...to see how it can be an issue, I've found, has been nothing but welcomed as something they didn't initially consider.
Honestly, I have no desire to go over my contract point by point, with the bride. Its there, and she is certainly welcome to read it over before signing it, but mine is really short anyway, and I'm not gonna make a huge deal over every little point. Take buying a home or car, even though there are tons of documents to sign in both of those instances, they dont sit there and belabor every single point. Thats just not necessary in most instances. Bottom line is, if they want me, they are going to agree to the terms as listed anyway, cause I aint changin em. I'm just over 780 weddings now, so it hasnt seemed to be a problem thus far. Half the stuff photogs put in their contracts is totally unenforceable legal superfluous verbiage anyway, and is just there to make themselves feel better and possibly to give second thought to some pia bride wanting to sue over something.
The last thing I want to do is give the bride something else to worry about.....omg, my friends and family are gonna f*&K up my pix.....no thanks. I like my brides as calm and relaxed as possible. If something arises during the event, then its my job to sort it out...one way or another, not hers. Again, I want my brides to float blissfully thru their day and not even think about me or my task at hand, and certainly not whether uncle bob is being a pain in my ass or not. Thats not a burden she should bear. That comes with the territory when you put your shingle out there as a wedding professional.
bb
Number of pictures taken: zero. Pro had 70-200 f/2.8 on 5d on a tripod. Tripod knocked over by children. 70-200 front element makes perfect contact with concrete planter box thing. Crack. Pro digs out f/4 backup and pulls faces at it. Hand pro my 70-200 f/2.8, being the only lens I had with me and went back to being sociable. At the end, pro returns lens unharmed and offered to comp some prints. Everyone happy.
umber of pictures taken: zero. Pro had 70-200 f/2.8 on 5d on a tripod. Tripod knocked over by children. 70-200 front element makes perfect contact with concrete planter box thing. Crack
Question to the pros - in this situation:
a) your insurance covers this - you suck up any cost increase (does premium on photo insurance increase like with car insurance?) and/or deductible and call it a day...? a2) if this has happened do you did you even mention it to the B&G?
b) you have something in the contract that if a (drunken) guest or in this case kids damage the equipment the party hiring you is responsible at least for the deductible on your insurance or the full cost...?
c) deal with guest or parents of the kids that damaged it and have the cover the full cost or deductible?
would b and c even be enforceable - bad for business I know but is it even enforceable?
OT:
manyquestions: Nikon shooter here, AF assist light and the beep set to off here It's annoying to me even if I'm the only person there and the AF light is just rude when it's not needed especially around fine art I went on a photo trip recently with some friends photogs and there were some 30+ other photogs at one of the locations ... nothing more annoying than the constant "beep" "beep" as their cameras focused... Many of them were participants in the photo workshops so they traveled in groups of 5 or 6 and I don't know how they were able to handle that noise ALL DAY LONG
Let me add a little perspective from a rank amateur. I am just a hobbyist. My sister asked me to shoot her wedding (YIKES!!). I begged her to get a pro. My parents and I even offered to pay for it. I studied for two months prior, gave her a questionnaire (which she ignored), and then she hired a "pro" at the last minute.
I spoke with the pro prior to the event and asked if she minded my shooting and how she wanted to handle it. All she wanted were the money shots, potraits, ceremony, etc. Fine, I would shoot everything else. Then she pulls out an AE-1 and a 50 prime, and shot 8 rolls of film. She ate at the reception and said she wasn't paid to shoot it.
I have never seen the pro results, but I hear they are terrible. The family portraits weren't preplanned, and as I result, there aren't many. Even my sister has thanked me over and over for being there and shooting because this woman was so bad.
Amateurs compete with the weak pros. Amateurs can learn from the real pros. My advice, talk to the pro. What is it you want? Do you want to shoot the wedding? If so, why not ask the pro to be their backup or a second backup and hand over your cards at the end. If you are just going to take candids, and avoid the money shots, but still, talk to the pro. My advice is to be there as a photog or leave the gear at home altogether.
My advice is to be there as a guest and enjoy yourself.....if they wanted you to photograph it they would have asked. Have fun and be a part of the party not part of the vendors.
As for the "pro" showing up with what she did....who cares what she shot with...Cartier Bresson worked wonders with only a 50 prime and film........dont pass judgement until you see the pix. If I was only hired for the ceremony and not the reception then I wouldnt have shot it either...this is a business. They had the opportunity to hire her for that time period and chose not to. Dont blame the hired pro for doing what they were hired to do....as for eating...some brides insist. I usually dont, but then I'm not gonna make it an issue if they insist.
Its pretty easy to sit on the outside and say gee look at what "this pro" did. Walk a mile then pass judgment. Or better yet, just walk a mile and then offer a solution.
You said they hired "a pro at the last minute" then complained that the formals "werent preplanned" Those two dont go together. You cant have it both ways. Hire someone at the last minute..of course things arent preplanned. (not that there is much preplanning needed to shoot formals)
If so, why not ask the pro to be their backup or a second backup and hand over your cards at the end.
I'm not a lawyer, but wouldn't this be absolutely begging for trouble for the pro? If they accepted those cards, there would be debated ownership/copyright, ethical issues and headaches for all.
manyquestions: Nikon shooter here, AF assist light and the beep set to off here :) It's annoying to me even if I'm the only person there and the AF light is just rude when it's not needed especially around fine art :) I went on a photo trip recently with some friends photogs and there were some 30+ other photogs at one of the locations ... nothing more annoying than the constant "beep" "beep" as their cameras focused... :) Many of them were participants in the photo workshops so they traveled in groups of 5 or 6 and I don't know how they were able to handle that noise ALL DAY LONG :)...Show more →
On the other hand, all that extra light provides fill when shooting in the dark ;-)
My contract says I'm the exclusive photographer hired to shoot the wedding, and if a guest gets in my way or hampers my ability to do my job, that guest will be asked to put the equipment away. Period.
I don't need your help, and I don't want you using my clients' photos in your portfolio so you can undercut me doing $500 weddings. If you're attending my clients' wedding, then enjoy the time with your friends. Sorry, but not everything is a photo op.
into some guest with an iphone or p&s or rebel behind me taking the same shots
It's annoying to me even if I'm the only person there and the AF light is just rude when it's not needed especially around fine art 