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Archive 2008 · Canon Updates

Cementjungle
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p.6 #1 · Canon Updates

Sean Mills wrote:
I just spent 8k on a 1ds3, its only logical that a cheaper model with the majority of the res and feature would come out shortly there after

.

New lenses, that's what I'm looking forward to.

It won't come close to the 1DsMIII, don't worry about that.

Jul 31, 2008 at 06:15 PM

Sean Mills
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p.6 #2 · Canon Updates

Cementjungle wrote:
It won't come close to the 1DsMIII, don't worry about that.

Even if it were to, which I concur, it wont.... I certainly wouldnt worry.

Jul 31, 2008 at 07:34 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.6 #3 · Canon Updates

Hello Fred :-) - thank you for the registration.

:-) Hello, all of you in here,

its funny to see, how people react upon the simple fact, that competitors try to get a peace of the cake, canon was able to offer and sell as a stand allone company succesfull over the past three years.

Camera development needs an amount of time. I guess some more then a couple of month. The 5D was and still is a milestone, that forces others to copy and make it their flaggship a full timerange of three years later. D3 is (in my opinion) nothing else, than an highly overpriced 5D/1D MKIII mix, with additional enhanced AF an highres display (and still lower resolution than the standard Canons 5D sets 3 years ago).

D 700 with the same image-quality is a try, to match the already established price range of the old competitor, what D3 does not. Thats not a marketing genius. Its just a sign of beeing chanceless if not.

That 5D is not purchased any longer does by shure not mean, Canon lost the race. It simply describes the fact, that the a new 5D generation is already in production.

And they had 3 years or more of dervelopement time to top one of the most innovating, interessting, outstanding and affordable digital SLRs of the last decade.
The follow up will have 14 bit, digic III (higher Iso), anti dust, lifeview and enhanced AF, of course. Because this is the standard, Canon established for their actual product range the last 1 1/2 years.

And I guess, it will have weather sealing, more frames per second, longer shutter life duration and of course a higher resolution by less noise, then its "father". And still an affordable price that beats all competitors offers. Canon is a succesfull business company. Still No. ONE in the marked. They will not give up their position. If they do not stupid. Like all others they learn by mistakes in the past. Only Forrest Gump became succesful this way. But he is a tale. Canon became succesfull, because they where clever and produced, what customers want.

This new 5D "follow up" will be able to set milestone standards for the next few years again, I guess. Like 5D did 3 years ago and does till the current days, when competitors became able to offer something comparable at least. That is what happened. Nothing else.

I think we all should wait some more days, till we get invited to the party. :-) I am looking foreward to purchase the camera that will match my needs for the next 5-6 years and I am shure, it will be the 5D follow up.

Ralph

PS:
Sorry for my horrible english. I am german and do not choose the right expressions often.

Aug 01, 2008 at 06:58 AM

Beni
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p.6 #4 · Canon Updates

Ralph, you're optimism is truly.......hilarious.

Who cares what came before? Here I am in the latter part of 2008 wanting to buy either a D700 or a 5D mkII. I will decide to buy based on what I'm getting for my money. As usual the choice will be between pure IQ (canon) or features (Nikon). Difference is that although the mkII may have more metgapixels the Nikon finally has sufficient and of a quality good enough that I may well choose features and the Nikon WILL beat the Canon on that front.

Truth is I can't afford to upgrade either of my 5D's nor can I afford to switch systems even if I wanted to. But for the buyer wanting more features than megapixels upgrading from a canon/Nikon crop camera or even a 5D and with the cash burning a hole in their pockets - as I said, you're optimism is rather misplaced. The mkII will be a 16 megapixel FF 40D and few doubt it. Whether that is what they want over a D700 is a very different question. The idea that the Canon will beat the Nikon on both IQ and features and price is truly hilarious.

Aug 01, 2008 at 07:17 AM

Ralph Conway
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p.6 #5 · Canon Updates

@ Beni:

Sorry, I had to find out what "hilarious" means first. :-(
:-) Now I know and again I learned something.

I posted my message in general after I read the 45 earlier comments to the threadstarters post. To make you comortable I answer to your last one now in special.

I shot a fashion-catalogue last week with my "aweful" 30D and an 40D. The quality was good enought to make my customer (more then) happy with his catalogue and 8 posters (A1 printed with 108 DPI). They looked great, too.
I would have prefered to see them in 150 DPI (both, 5D and D3/D700 would have supported that). But it was a (me) want, no "must" for the job.

You find my optimism is misplaced? I think optimism is never.

I am thinking about where you know from that the 5D MK II will be a 16 MP FF 40?
And if, what would be wrong with that? That would mean less noise with higher resolution, a great viewfinder and an exzellent AF and all standards. The sensor would shurly make an affordable Iso 6.400. And the price would be � 500-700 less, than the D700s. That is what I need (want) for the next years.

You asked the feature question. I want a tool, that gives me features as follows:
- great image quality
- 13 MP (more could be nice)
- safe AF (one center crosstype up to 5.6 matches all my needs)
- accurate viewfinder for manual focus
- Iso 6.400 in the quality of 5Ds 1600
- weather sealing (no must, but I shoot 90% outside)
- long living shutter (I can not repair my camera one time a year or buy a new one)
- portable weight
- handling
- payable

Before I would Think about buying a D700 or a 5D MK II like YOU do, I would wait to see what a 5D MK II brings. If it matches the features mentioned above its mine. If not, I will buy a 5D. Or maybe a 40 D. Its that easy.

In my case, D700 matches nearly all features I am looking for (except weight, handling (the battery grip looks nice but handling is aweful compared to my 30D (or the 40D, 5D) , resolution and price).

I own and use (95%) three lenses mainly. They are all great and they would have to be sold and rebought (at an higher price), too. My 70-200 4.0 IS does not have an competitor in Canons Lensrange. I use it 55-60%.

That is my opinion. At least you wrote:
"The idea that the Canon will beat the Nikon on both IQ and features and price is truly hilarious."
It was fact in the past. I saw, that you do not care what came before (you mentioned above). So it was luck, you purchased 5Ds?

nice regards
Ralph

Aug 01, 2008 at 08:50 AM

Beni
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p.6 #6 · Canon Updates

Hi Ralph,

That Canon made the 5D 3 years ago was very important 3 years ago. It is irrelevant today. Canon has always crippled the features on its non pro cameras and there is little to suggest that this time will be any different. On the other hand their chips have always been world leading. The difference is this time that Nikon have caught up with chip quality and are providing a camera that has both pro features and pro image quality in a small package in the form of the D700. Although I assume that the chip in the new 5D will be very good, I am willing to bet you 5 Euro that the camera will not have pro level AF, pro level weather proofing and other pro features. The D700 does! When the original 5D was released it was heavily overpriced and I have little doubt the same will be true for the new one. I'm not holding my breath waiting to see a significant price difference between it and the D700, I have little doubt it will be priced pretty much the same leaving the choice between a consumer level 16 megapixel (or whatever) Canon or a 12 megapixel pro Nikon.

If the 5D mkII is a pro level body then I'll eat my hat!

That said, the cost of me switching would be prohibitive, there is no 85mm 1.8 USM or a sharp 50mm 1.4 USM, there is no 17-40L, no 70-200f4L IS (all lenses I use every day to make my living), no CP-E3 flash battery pack, No CPS service and I really dislike the rear control wheel, far too stiff. Those are all big reasons why I wouldn't switch anyway. My 2 5D's are very battered, have a lot of paint missing, are probably completely rusted up inside from all the rain I've shot them in and needed multiple trips to canon to get the focus right, but ever since they were released they've shot well over 100,000 money making frames and they do just go on....

p.s. I haven't tried the battery grip on the Nikons but the Canon one is awful, the shutter release is in completely the wrong place for your index finger and the dial is so easy to knock that I've taped it over with gaffer tape. Ralph, I started with the 10D, I still have a 20D, I wasn't trying to start any megapixel wars, personally 13 megapixels is perfect for my wedding business, wouldn't want to have to deal with bigger files. When I need more for personal work I stitch.

Aug 01, 2008 at 09:39 AM

Ralph Conway
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p.6 #7 · Canon Updates

:-) (eat my hat). If it is, I will come to UK and shoot the docu for this forum, I promise. :-)

To make shure, I am not a Canon guy: I had one time to go to CPS to fix a horrible frontfocus of one inch! At my camera! And I tested 7 (!) 50s 1.4 before I found that one I was/am happy with. But photographers friends told me the same problems with Nikon. So one brought back his 70-200 2.8 because it had a FF of an half inch and Nikon was not able to correct it.

I W A S flashed by the D700 viewfinder. And the 1 Mio Display. Both where state of the art to me. And they made the D700 worth to purchase. But I have to calculate, too. I shot with a friends 5D only 5 times. The image-quality is superb (you know, you work with it). An 14 bit and digic III enhancement only will make it even better (in my opinion as good as Nicons).

Weather sealing is a great feature. But by the way. I started digital with the D60 at a price of � 3.000. There was no sealing and it worked for four years, and 130.000 exposures before the shutter broke. 2 years before I let it outside after a party and it rained all night. There was water inside evrywhere (even the lens). I let it dry for 10 hours. And it worked for another 2 years till the shutter broke. Instead of a new shutter I bought a 350 to overcome the half-year period, before I got my 30D. With digic II I saved 200 % of image rework time to fit (for example) skin colours.

Back to your post:
Shutter release in wrong place. Yes! But Nikon is the same for my hands. Maybe I should be a japanese guy, 165 hight? Your dial-problem I never had. Same with the grip.
My problem with the grip of D700 is, that there is only one aku inside. The second stays in the body. So you have no weight in your hand, you have to balance it and the whole cameras weight. Of course, its a matter of practice. But imo a stupid solution. Its nice, you can tell your camera, to empty the grip aku first. Because you have to demount the grip to charge the second aku. Thats not really a pro feature, I guess.

Anyway. It was a pleasure to talk to you Beni. There will be no chance than to wait some more days, to see what the tide brings. Maybe it brings us some wings, to fly over to japan and tell those guys, what we need. That our Hands are mans hands. At least they make 50 % of their sales with people like us.

Have a great day and weekend

Ralph

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 11:13 AM

Aug 01, 2008 at 11:08 AM

bobbytan
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p.6 #8 · Canon Updates

It's not hilarious, it's just wishful thinking. But you know what - I think it is not inconceivable for Canon to declare war on Nikon and put something out that is uncharacteristic of Canon i.e. giving their customers what they want and beating Nikon at their own game. Wouldn't that be great?

Beni wrote:
Ralph, you're optimism is truly.......hilarious.

Who cares what came before? Here I am in the latter part of 2008 wanting to buy either a D700 or a 5D mkII. I will decide to buy based on what I'm getting for my money. As usual the choice will be between pure IQ (canon) or features (Nikon). Difference is that although the mkII may have more metgapixels the Nikon finally has sufficient and of a quality good enough that I may well choose features and the Nikon WILL beat the Canon on that front.

Truth is I can't afford to upgrade either of my...Show more →

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 11:38 AM

Aug 01, 2008 at 11:37 AM

ulrikft
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p.6 #9 · Canon Updates

It is a bit wishful, but I really wish that this wish would come trough :P I want good af, i want weathersealing and i want a bulletproof build..

(metaforical ofc).

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:07 PM

Jeff
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p.6 #10 · Canon Updates

I agree with Beni, the 5D II will be a full-frame 40D, and not the 3D we've all been waiting for.

I have to admit that it's now been more than 2 years that I've been waiting for Canon to develop the cameras that I need/want. The fact that I continue to wait--combined with my 1D MkIII experience--leads me to question my choice of camera. I've been with Canon since the intro of the 1Ds, but perhaps they've had their day, and a return to the top of the heap is not to be.

The D700 and D3 are the cameras I've been waiting for Canon to release, but I now believe that it will never happen.

Sorry for the mini-rant, but after just having read the D700 specs for the first time, I've had it...

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:15 PM

John Power
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p.6 #11 · Canon Updates

We have a B/S forum Jeff

. I have used it before. It works.

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:22 PM

simonella_viru
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p.6 #12 · Canon Updates

Jeff wrote:
after just having read the D700 specs for the first time, I've had it...

caution, caution, danger, danger. reading specs is what got us into this 1d III mess

otherwise, i entirely agree with you, Jeff. but let's just wait what the 5d II will look like on paper, and in real-life performance.

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:32 PM

Mark Shaxted
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p.6 #13 · Canon Updates

There's no way in a million years that the 5DmkII will be the mythical 3D. It will be the FF version of the yet to be announced 50D (the same as the current 5D was a FF version of the 30D).

But now, more than ever, there will be a gaping hole where the 3D could (and probably will) fit. It's just a matter of when - next year we can expect a 50D, a 500D and a mkIIIn (rebadged as a mkIV), and in all probability a 2000D (

). This leaves little time to make a 3D, unfortuanately. Maybe 2010.

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:37 PM

Jeff
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p.6 #14 · Canon Updates

John Power wrote:
We have a B/S forum Jeff

. I have used it before. It works.

I may be doing that soon. I'm waiting to hear if I have an angle for making the switch less financially antagonizing.

simonella_viru wrote:
caution, caution, danger, danger. reading specs is what got us into this 1d III mess

otherwise, i entirely agree with you, Jeff. but let's just wait what the 5d II will look like on paper, and in real-life performance.

Simon, it's not the specs that necessarily get me anymore, as 10+ MP is pretty much enough for most of what I do. It's the feature set that's got my interest piqued. Nikon's approach to what a digital SLR should be is what I find compelling. I read through that D700 description and quite a few times found myself in awe of some of the thought that went into some of the features that Canon will apparently never have. Switching zoom and focus directions would suck, but I assume I can adapt.

I'm starting to think that Canon refuses to adopt 'new' ideas for fear of being labeled a 'follower', instead of a leader. But it's hard to be a leader when your last consumer-level DSLR was similar to the previous one, which was practically exactly the same as the one that came before it. I really don't expect the 5D II to deviate too far from the 5D or 40D, and I hope that I'm proven very, very wrong.

It simply leads me to ask myself why I don't switch, after several years of hoping that Canon will follow suit. Maybe next time around.... or next time... or next time...

-J

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:48 PM

simonella_viru
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p.6 #15 · Canon Updates

Jeff i agree with you. just to clarify, i was saying that we shouldn't get too excited about feature sets/ specs because that's precisely what got me excited about the 1d III. and ultimately, those features and specs were useless when my camera had AF problems, recalls, etc.

i too have contemplated switching to the d700. however, once again, it's cost-prohibitive. i'm down to three L lenses and a 5d. though, if the price of the d700 drops in a year or so, who knows...

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 12:56 PM

Aug 01, 2008 at 12:52 PM

bobbytan
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p.6 #16 · Canon Updates

Never say never .... and we should not give up on Canon .... not yet anyway. We need to give them time to strategize and plan their next move. I am sure Canon is not happy about losing the market leader position in the pro sector, so I am sure they will strike back with everything they have to reclaim the #1 position they have had for such a long time. We gotta have a bit more faith that Canon will do the right thing. I think Canon will floor us this Fall .... but I am not holding my breath!

Aug 01, 2008 at 01:20 PM

Jeff
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p.6 #17 · Canon Updates

bobbytan wrote:
Never say never .... and we should not give up on Canon .... not yet anyway. We need to give them time to strategize and plan their next move. I am sure Canon is not happy about losing the market leader position in the pro sector, so I am sure they will strike back with everything they have to reclaim the #1 position they have had for such a long time. We gotta have a bit more faith that Canon will do the right thing. I think Canon will floor us this Fall .... but I am not holding my!

...Show more →

Hmm... Let's see here.

I feel that Canon has given up on me. They have my investment, it's not the other way around.

I've given them more than 2 years to 'strategize' their next move.

As far as 'striking back with everything they have' goes, I'm not sure what they have, because they haven't been showing any of it for the last 24+ months.

As far as having 'a bit more faith' to do the right thing, how long am I supposed to continue blindly giving them credit that they now don't deserve?

Wise decision not to hold your breath, my friend. We've been having these same conversations now ever since the 1D MkIIn came out...

Aug 01, 2008 at 02:17 PM

Gerry Szarek
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p.6 #18 · Canon Updates

We will see a 1dmkIIIn or 1dmkIV before we see a 5DmkII.

Aug 01, 2008 at 03:02 PM

stuuke
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p.6 #19 · Canon Updates

Regarding updates to the Mark III:

Will Canon have an answer for Nikon, sure. I just don't think it's going to surpass what Nikon has done in a single product cycle. It took years for Nikon to release cameras that are far superior to the competition in many regards. Even with Canon we usually see minor upgrades (30d to 40d, Mark II to Mark IIn) and less often major upgrades. Canon got blown out of the water. It's going to take some time to catch up. Canon is a much larger company and moves much slower than Nikon. If the rumors are true about Nikon releasing some primes at photokina then more than just putting a quality product out there they have shown that they are listening to the desires of professional photographers. The same can be said when Canon released the 16-35 II to address corner sharpness. The difference is that Nikon just did with their entire line in one year.

With the exception of the D1 I have been a loyal Canon user for 16 years. I would love to stick with them but I'm really starting to think about switching. The Mark III disaster has left a sour taste in my mouth and it comes at a time when Nikon has a better product with more things coming in the near future. I'm sure the next generation of Canon will have better lcds and better high iso performance (although not necessarily at Nikon's level with their first attempt) but I'm not confident that the ETTL will ever be at the level of Nikon's flash system. Canon has had years to catch up and just hasn't done it. Now that Nikon is releasing comparable lenses to Canon things have at the very least evened out.

Edited by stuuke on Aug 01, 2008 at 02:25 PM GMT

Edited on Aug 01, 2008 at 03:25 PM

Aug 01, 2008 at 03:15 PM

orangefirefish
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p.6 #20 · Canon Updates

I just don't think that Canon would cannibalize their 1d series to put weather sealing and better AF on their 5d mk II. It would be nice, and this is maybe where a lot of Canonians are switching over to Nikon. It'd be a pity to see just a 5d with a 1ds II 16.7mp chip, and the functionality of the 40d.

Would Canon give up the 5d line? Not really- it's well designed for a niche market. It sits in at a price point in between their xxD series and their 1d series. However, it's been very IQ oriented as opposed to function/speed/af oriented. When it first came out, it was in a great position- no competition for any other maker, comparatively cheap FF DSLR, and great IQ/ISO perf. to boot. In its time, it was a unique camera. When the 5d mark II is released (if), it will likely still be geared towards portrait, landscape, and wedding photographers. This is a market doesn't necessarily need the extreme high IQ of the 1ds, or the high speed of the 1d.

The issue is that Nikon's D700 is at the juncture of their equivalent xxD series and the 5d series- and that is where most advanced amateur photogs want to be- the best of both worlds- fast, accurate af, high fps, great high ISO, advanced IQ. Nikon's move is a bold one here- for sure the introduction of the D700 is going to eat away at D3 and D300 sales. Nikon's lineup seems a bit too crowded, with their price points of these cameras getting ever closer.

Since the 5d will not have the 1ds chip, or the 1d chip, it won't have as immense an effect on the sales of those bodies (especially the 1d, since most people that make a living with the 5d would not need the speed of the 1d). At the same time, it will be a price point out of reach of the xxD buyers.

Aug 01, 2008 at 03:20 PM

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