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Archive 2008 · MaxPreps.com

WmPat
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p.5 #1 · MaxPreps.com

frozenrope wrote:
Like I said before, it takes a while to build in every are they move into. MP relies heavily on the participation of the AD's and the Coaches. If schedules etc have the wrong info, it's because someone fed them the wrong info. They try very hard to make sure what they post is accurate but there is a large dependence on others to provide it.

And by the way, trying to do what Getty did in pro sports at the High school level amounts not only to a complete shift in their business model but also a monumental undertaking considering...Show more →

The thing that I'm getting now is that MP operates in very different ways in different areas of the country. What frozenrope, and others, have stated just isn't the case here. The inaccuracies I see are not the kind that would come from a coach or an AD. They are the kind that would come from someone who doesn't know the local scene at all, and doesn't make the effort to get things right even when people try to help them. Maybe they are trying to take a big bite when they only have the resources to digest small portions.

Their supposed business model is interesting but it also raises the fear that by the time they grow to cover the entire nation, they will have enough influence to do as they like, and disregard the economic interests of the independent photographers that they seem to be encouraging, or depending upon, to help them grow the business.

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:21 AM

frozenrope
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p.5 #2 · MaxPreps.com

Not true. The only thing that changes the way they operate has to do with the time it takes to establish themselves in a particular area. MP gets all of their information from the localities. I'm sure there are still data entry errors but they are quick to change them when it's brought to their attention by someone in authority. If the data is not getting corrected or updated, that is a function of the team officials not bringing it to their attention. I do know that often times a booster club is designated to provide the information and postgame updates etc. and I have seen many errors due to improperly inputted data. But again, that gets changed once MP is notified.

I just don't follow the logic as to why if they were a successful media company nationwide following their business model, why they would suddenly change directions and formulate a completely different business plan.

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:33 AM

WmPat
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p.5 #3 · MaxPreps.com

frozenrope wrote:
Not true. The only thing that changes the way they operate has to do with the time it takes to establish themselves in a particular area. MP gets all of their information from the localities. I'm sure there are still data entry errors but they are quick to change them when it's brought to their attention by someone in authority. If the data is not getting corrected or updated, that is a function of the team officials not bringing it to their attention. I do know that often times a booster club is designated to provide the information and postgame...Show more →

Well, that's not the way it works here, but it does give me something to look forward to.

frozenrope wrote:
I just don't follow the logic as to why if they were a successful media company nationwide following their business model, why they would suddenly change directions and formulate a completely different business plan.

The most common reason for a business to "change directions and formulate a completely different business plan" is to increase profits. It happens more now than it used to in the past, and will happen even more frequently in the future. The business plan that is needed to become "nationwide" probably won't be the same as the one that yields the most profit after that "nationwide" status is achieved.

Edited on Feb 11, 2008 at 01:45 AM

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:43 AM

frozenrope
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p.5 #4 · MaxPreps.com

frozenrope wrote:I just don't follow the logic as to why if they were a successful media company nationwide following their business model, why they would suddenly change directions and formulate a completely different business plan.
The most common reason for a business to "change directions and formulate a completely different business plan" is to increase profits. It happens more now than it used to in the past, and will happen even more frequently in the future. The business plan that is needed to become "nationwide" probably won't be the same as the one that yields the most profit after that "nationwide" status...Show more →

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. If their current plan is proving successful, enough to grow them to enjoying nationwide success much like they have in CA, the business does not change directions and formulate a completely different business plan particularly one that would alienate many of the valuable business partners they have garnered along the way. Businesses formulate new change of direction business plans when their current one is not realizing its goals. If their model didn't first work in CA, MP would not be out there trying to expand nationwide, following the same plan.

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:51 AM

PShizzy
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p.5 #5 · MaxPreps.com

what you fail to consider is that a business may see a finite growth to their current business model. Changing up their gameplan may sound farfetched but if it offers long term benefits, then why not take a loss early on if only to corner the market

Why not lose the battle if it means winning the war?

But honestly, the question isn't whether or not something is happening, its the concept and possibility that something may happen that is often enough to change the landscape and perspectives in the future.

Take a publicly traded stock, and if enough shares move quickly, then people will assume that the stock is going to flop. Perception becomes reality, as people assuming take part in making the stock flop by selling based on a perception.

So where does this fit in with Maxpreps? Simple: They don't need to believe that trying to monopolize the market is a good idea. They need to believe that the trading public, that their investors, etc, believe it's a good idea, and if they don't take hold of that, that those same investors and trading public will look elsewhere. Maxpreps on its own may not say "we need to corner the market", but what if a competitor site decided to make a foray into that goal. what would Maxpreps response be?

On a smaller scale, if you have a longstanding, but not contracted, agreement with a league to shoot their sports, and then someone new comes in and decides to shoot the same events, what is your response? My guess is that people here, the same ones that would advocate for Maxpreps, will tell you to lock down your contract, in effect to monopolize that league, to make sure that the average joe couldn't cut into your profit.

So why again wouldn't Maxpreps do this? Please don't tell me it's because they're good people. I wouldn't doubt it, but business is business. Remember the saying: power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Max

Feb 11, 2008 at 03:49 AM

dmwierz
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p.5 #6 · MaxPreps.com

Further to Max's comment, successful businesses change directions in response to changing markets, consumer preferences and other driving forces. Those who don't change often go out of business.

...what, PRECISELY, does maxpreps do to get their name out there and get traffic onto their website frorm local people (who are, after all, the ones buying the photos). Let's say I live in the town of Podunk. How does maxpreps get the parents of Podunk High to visit their internet site? What is the marketing strategy and how is it implemented? By far, the vast majority of my clients are mothers not fathers - I'm not sure CBS.Sportsline.Com is a hot spot for many mothers of HS players. i could be wrong, but so far they seem to be the...Show more →

Next time you see an NCAA basketball or football (OK, next season for football) notice the name on the score ticker at the bottom of the page...I recorded a game this past Saturday, and the ticker had "MaxPreps" all over it. I've seen this before.

I shoot for another prep photo company in Illinois, and despite the fact that "my" company has been covering the school I work with for years (and providing a pretty good product - the guy who covered the school before me is now shooting for AP), at half-time of a recent basketball game, MaxPreps and the National Guard, both of whom were in attendance, arranged for an awards presentation for the school's varsity football team (in addition to winning the state championship this team was named MaxPrep's #23 in the country). The name "MaxPreps" must have been mentioned 25 times and they gave the microphone to the MaxPrep's guy to give the trophy and award to the football team and coach. They also handed out basketballs and other stuff with their name on 'em. And this is in Illinois, where MP is supposedly not very well known.

My point is this: MaxPreps' name recognition is better than mine - I don't have my name crawling across the bottom of any NCAA games - I'm not given the mic at a varsity basketball game - I don't give away footballs, t-shirts and basketballs with my name on them - etc...If you think there is value to this advertising and being affiliated with a company that spends a little more than you can on promotion, and you get value from the web site, order fulfillment, photo editing, data gathering (assuming the data are accurate), and other aspects of their business model, then the 30% MP takes off the top may be worth it. If not, don't shoot for them. Simple.

Feb 11, 2008 at 09:36 AM

john_a_g
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p.5 #7 · MaxPreps.com

dmwierz wrote:
The name "MaxPreps" must have been mentioned 25 times and they gave the microphone to the MaxPrep's guy to give the trophy and award to the football team and coach. They also handed out basketballs and other stuff with their name on 'em. And this is in Illinois, where MP is supposedly not very well known.

My point is this: MaxPreps' name recognition is better than mine - I don't have my name crawling across the bottom of any NCAA games - I'm not given the mic at a varsity basketball game - I don't give away footballs, t-shirts and...Show more →

That's the kind of answer I was looking for. That is the type of venue-specific marketing I would expect - i.e. either signs at the school or mentioning the name (things I am not allowed to do). That is targeted marketing. Thanks for that!

Feb 11, 2008 at 09:45 AM

Steve Ickes
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p.5 #8 · MaxPreps.com

I guess I'm a bit confused as to all the fear(?) expressed here towards MP. What's the difference between Maxpreps shooter attending the same games as you or another smaller local company? I regularly compete with smaller local companies as well as companies from 50 miles away. Is it that MP is national and owned by CBS? Is it that they are providing much more than game photos?

The regionalization and consolidation of youth sports information is growing. We actually have a small company here who operates similar to MP but with some inherent differences. They do sell prints but also offer $1 downloads. I've spoken to one of their photographers and he told me that they are using the $1 in order to drive traffic to their site. They are not basing future sustainability on selling prints but on generating ad revenue. Additionally, a local news station has started advertising a similar web site for high school varsity sports. Stats, schedules, video, and still images. They actively recruit HS kids to act as their "staff", reporting on games and providing content. I've been told that their parent company has been implementing this across the country, using their existing television presence to launch their web sites. They give each kid all kinds of logo wear and get them to market the web site as well. So for the price of some schwag, they get free articles, video footage, still images, and peer to peer marketing. For me, these types of ventures are infinitely more damaging to our industry than someone like Maxpreps.

In the end we can choose to crawl into a hole, defiantly protecting our little bit of turf or we can choose to adapt and continue to try and make money at something we love. Honestly if someone like Maxpreps does come in and start trying to secure exclusivity and "official" photographer status the best you can do is to try and compete based on the merits of your products, services and any relationships you've managed to build. Ultimately it's really not Maxpreps who makes the decisions as to whether or not they are allowed on the sidelines.

Feb 11, 2008 at 10:26 AM

KABeach
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p.5 #9 · MaxPreps.com

Well, I'm in Illinois also - and to be honest, in the last 2 years I've only seen 2 MaxPrep shooters - one was a Semi-Final Football Playoff Game - the other was the last game of the regular season for an undefeated team. At this point there really aren't well known in towns near me.

However, having said that, my problem with them hasn't been addressed. They may position themselves as a Prep Sports reporting agency/news sites, but they only cover a small number of the sports out there...

For example, here in Illinois, the only sports they currently cover are:
Baseball, Girls Basketball, Boys Basketball, Football, Girls Volleyball, Boys LAX, Girls LAX.

California for an example has an expanded list - which I assume will expand to the rest of the country as they expand:
Boys Soccer, Girls Soccer, Softball, Wrestling

As an example, I have one school that has the following sports which are ignored by MaxPreps:
Badminton, Bowling, Cheerleading, Boys X-Country, Girls X-Country, Boys Diving, Girls Diving, Boys Swimming, Girls Swimming, Boys Golf, Girls Golf, Boys Gymnastics, Girls Gymnastics, Poms/Dance, Boys Tennis, Girls Tennis, Boys Track, Girls Track, Boys Volleyball, Boys Water Polo, Girls Water Polo, Hockey.

The local event shooters who work with the schools always shoot at least some games of every sport... Unfortunately, my paper simply doesn't have the space to photograph all of them, but they are given space in the copy, certainly in the "round up" sections.

From my point of view, outside of Marquee sports, MaxPreps simply isn't the place to go as a one stop solution for prep sports.

One final note: I enjoy shooting the Non-Marquee sports - I enjoy giving space in the paper to those kids who work their butts off and often compete in front of a "crowd" of 100 parents. MaxPreps is just another organization which profits off of the Marquee sports and ignores those who choose to compete in sports with a smaller following.

Just my .02

Cheers,
Ken

Edited on Feb 11, 2008 at 12:16 PM

Feb 11, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.5 #10 · MaxPreps.com

If Maxpreps was simply an action/game photography company as other seem to insinuate, then they would be shooting all those "other" sports. However, the web site is driven by its editorial and statistical content with the photos being associated with and linked to that content. Since they have decided to only cover what they consider their core sports right now, the other sports (badminton, bowling, and golf for instance) would have no points of reference or purpose within the web site.

Edited by Steve Ickes on Feb 11, 2008 at 07:18 PM GMT

Edited on Feb 11, 2008 at 02:18 PM

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:19 PM

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p.5 #11 · MaxPreps.com

Steve Ickes wrote:
Not sure why a Maxpreps photographer would be shooting semi-pro anything. They only cover high school Varsity sports. Hopefully he/she wasn't using a Maxpreps pass in order to gain sideline access.

Uh ... Steve ... take a look at that quote again, man ...

He said, "Semi-FINAL Football Playoff Game" not "semi-pro ..."

You'd have caught it sooner or later ...

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:31 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.5 #12 · MaxPreps.com

cecilc . . . thanks for pointing out my error. Have corrected.

Feb 11, 2008 at 02:18 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.5 #13 · MaxPreps.com

snaptie2002 wrote:
Hmm............ Maybe I'm not so paranoid after all:worried:

Marty

Feb 11, 2008 at 02:19 PM

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p.5 #14 · MaxPreps.com

PShizzy wrote:
what you fail to consider is that a business may see a finite growth to their current business model. Changing up their gameplan may sound farfetched but if it offers long term benefits, then why not take a loss early on if only to corner the market

Why not lose the battle if it means winning the war?

But honestly, the question isn't whether or not something is happening, its the concept and possibility that something may happen that is often enough to change the landscape and perspectives in the future.

Take a publicly traded stock, and if enough shares move quickly, then...Show more →

OK Max, I'll play Devils Advocate for you. Let's say your fear is sound. If MP decided that is what they were going to do and put their energy and horsepower behind it, what difference would worrying about it now make? What is it the you or I or a group of us collectively could do now to prevent such a thing from happening? If you knew in advance that eventually Getty was going to go out and corner the pro sports market with exclusive contracts, do you think there is anything the contracted pro photogs that ended up getting the short end of the stick could have done to stop it either on their own or collectively? And what Getty did makes much more sense than the scenarios that are being suggested for MP here. I just don't see the purpose of all this paranoia. There is zero indication that MP has even the slightest notion of making this kind of large scale shift and here we are going round and round with completely unfounded suspicions and in doing so calling their integrity into question. They don't deserve that.

Feb 11, 2008 at 05:55 PM

Marty Bingham
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p.5 #15 · MaxPreps.com

Geez.....how did I get caught up in this quagmire

Steve.......in my first post I opened with the statement (I am paraphrasing) that I may be paranoid for thinking what I was thinking. I went on to say Max Prep's does not have a presence in my area and I could not think of a good reason to intitiate contact to bring their attention to my market.

I went on in a couple more post to offer an analogy of how it might backfire to bring in anyone that might turn into competition or otherwise muddy the water.

Someone, I think it might have even been you, said "This paranoia is getting out of hand."

Then the post containing the quote attached to my last post pops up with a perfect backdoor scenario where you are willing to use Maxprep credentials to sidestep a contract and shoot anyway. I hadn't even thought of that one........So I now see where things can definately backfire which makes me think that maybe I am not so paranoid afterall.

I am going to TRY to sit this discussion out from here. It has, IMO, taken on a sour, argumentative tone that this forum is not known for.

Marty

Feb 11, 2008 at 06:09 PM

frozenrope
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p.5 #16 · MaxPreps.com

Ken, It takes a considerable amount of time to rein in the various sports. Like any business, they pick the low hanging fruit first. The big sports have a bigger following and therefore more interest in their product. Even the local papers cover those sports differently than the smaller sports. Out here in CA, football gets great coverage by the local media, then basketball, after that, small back page stuff if anything at all. Pro sports coverage is tailored by the media the same way. The big three get the biggest coverage dollars. The MaxPreps concept is somewhat unique so getting new areas to buy in takes a lot of time and effort. It is a bit like a snowball though, as they continue to expand, expansion will become easier and quicker.

Feb 11, 2008 at 06:11 PM

Carl Auer
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p.5 #17 · MaxPreps.com

john_a_g wrote:
Carl - you are making the assumption that a 2 vivitar solution produces better shots. I happen to disagree with that assumption. Especially if you can't bounce. I've seen very few people who I see getting 75 quality strobe shots where they're better than available light with the right equipment. I see a TON of flash burn, unnatural shots.

I am going to post two shots here. Both of these were shot with my Vivitar 283's mounted about 25 feet up. Powered by battery packs, these last me 2 games or more depending on the shots.

Feb 11, 2008 at 06:22 PM

Carl Auer
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p.5 #18 · MaxPreps.com

Also, take a look at the galleries of MaxPreps Photo Editor and SS member, http://tinyurl.com/2w3q7l]Juli Tallino[/url] who also uses Vivitars or Canon Speedlights to strobe.

Edited on Feb 11, 2008 at 06:24 PM

Feb 11, 2008 at 06:23 PM

Carl Auer
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p.5 #19 · MaxPreps.com

Now then, tell me that using 2 cheap vivitar strobes with some cheep wireless slaves do not give you good, quality light.

As for promotion, for most of California and states where MaxPreps have been for a while, there is no need to promote much, as people expect that there will be shots from the games on their site. But for areas where it is new, yes, you have to promote it some. For me, the first game I covered for MaxPreps was for the National High School Football season, and when I got to the game I had a couple hundred preprinted cards that MaxPreps sent me that I asked if the ticket counter would hand out, and they were happy to. They also announced it over the loud speaker during the game a couple times. You now get a hat, shirt, jacket, and cards that you can wear if you want to to help promote it, and THEY contact schools and coaches trying to get rosters, stats, scores, and stuff.

I would place a pretty good guess that sales to parents are not what MaxPreps focuses on. It is additional revenue to them, but not a lot. What it does do is guarantee that they will have top quality photos on their website, which will bring in more advertisers, which will bring in more money.

Feb 11, 2008 at 06:32 PM

john_a_g
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p.5 #20 · MaxPreps.com

Carl,
Those are nice images. My contention however is that at gallery levels (say 70 shots) I see more issues than get solved by many people using flashes - a lot of flash burn, harsh shadows etc. So yes, 10-15 shots you can get some great stuff. And again I admit I form my opinion based upon viewing the results of the few people that actually post links to entire galleries of shots.

Do you by chance have an entire 60-70 shot gallery from that game with the 2 vivitar setup?

Feb 11, 2008 at 07:50 PM

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