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Archive 2008 · MaxPreps.com

bonnerkopf
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p.4 #1 · MaxPreps.com

I would think it would be the "prestiege" of their well known website, and the fact that they would host it and would have the possibility of a ton of more traffic than a private photographer's smugmug site.

70% cut of the profit, and keeping photo rights, is a pretty good deal for the small time hobbyist, without all of the hassle of setting up and maintaining and printing out pictures etc etc....

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:01 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.4 #2 · MaxPreps.com

What they add for me is possible access to markets that I don't currently have access to, mainly companies such as SI, Nike, McDonalds, etc. None of these companies are going to be browsing my website for photos. Yes, I could send them a letter or email and let them know that I've taken some shots they may be interested in however that would probably go nowhere. On the other hand, Maxpreps is becoming a known resource for anyone looking for HS athlete photos. But beyond that, once again, FOR ME, it works. In some cases, another photographer or company have a contract with a particular school. If I just wanted to show up, shoot, and sell photos as myself, it wouldn't happen. Even if I could do it and get away with it, I'm not about to "scab" another photographers contract just to sell a handful of prints. However, with Maxpreps I can shoot the game and not violate anyone's contract since Maxpreps is a media outlet and the selling of prints is incidental to their goal of providing editorial content.

Another nice benefit is that I can see how many kids for a particular school are registered with Maxpreps. This allows me to focus my efforts on those schools with a larger awareness of Maxpreps.

Personally, I don't care if I'm getting 69%, 70%, or 80% on the sale. Yes, I could grab a few more bucks doing it on my own but FOR ME their percentage of the sale is worth the added exposure and work they do on my behalf. They provide video, editorial, and statistical content that drives traffic to the web site. More traffic means possibly more exposure for my photos. I have full photo credit and well as a link to my profile which points to my web site. For me the potential added exposure, the additional marketing of my images are all worth the small percentage they keep from my sales.

And finally once again, I don't shoot for Maxpreps exclusively. I've yet to meet anyone who does. Part of being a small independent business is always looking for supplemental income, ways to increase your reach/exposure and how to do things as cost-effectively as possible. Maxpreps fits all those needs for me. If you don't like the idea, the concept, or strobing games at 800 ISO then Maxpreps is obviously not for you. If you've already admitted such, then why continue to argue the point? It works for some of us and doesn't for others. Okay, point made, move on.

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:08 PM

john_a_g
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p.4 #3 · MaxPreps.com

bonnerkopf wrote:
and the fact that they would host it and would have the possibility of a ton of more traffic than a private photographer's smugmug site.
...

UMM, that's the part I'm missing. People from another state aren't going to buy a photo of Podunk high football player. Only Podunk High parents are interested in those photos. SO, it's only THEIR traffic that matters. THAT is my point. How does Maxpreps get THEM to their site. They're the only ones that buy. So, how does maxpreps market themselves in a new area? How do they get the residents of that area to their site? The fact that thousands of Californians visit their site doesn't help me a bit since I'm not in California. Your argument makes a lot of sense IF I was in a market where maxpreps had a presence.

So, what I'm looking for is a statement that goes like this:

"In a new market for maxpreps, Maxpreps will increase your visibility and get more target market eyes (i.e. city of Podunk residents) looking at your photos than your own site because......"

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:10 PM

john_a_g
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p.4 #4 · MaxPreps.com

Steve Ickes wrote:
If I just wanted to show up, shoot, and sell photos as myself, it wouldn't happen. Even if I could do it and get away with it, I'm not about to "scab" another photographers contract just to sell a handful of prints. However, with Maxpreps I can shoot the game and not violate anyone's contract since Maxpreps is a media outlet and the selling of prints is incidental to their goal of providing editorial content.

Steve, call it what you will - but that's just plain wrong. I'm sorry. You're hiding behind technicalities. You're still selling prints and infringing upon another photographer's turf. YOU profit from the print sales. I'm OK with the idea of maxpreps getting people access. But if I had a contract to exclusively sell images for a school and you came in and hiding behind the maxpreps guise of being a media outlet sold images. To me that's just immoral business behavior. You aren't shooting that game for press work. You're shooting the game for print sales profit. I honestly hope you reconsider that approach.

Regardless of being a part of maxpreps or not you should respect a contract another shooter has and move on to a different venue.

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:16 PM

bonnerkopf
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p.4 #5 · MaxPreps.com

I guess the bottom line for me is that it seems that the site seems to work for hundreds or thousands of photographers. I would think that the pros who make their full living shooting sports find it not worth their while to use it, as they have other contracts and fulfillments that does not make sense for them.

We all know that the reason maxpreps exists isn't for the athletes or the photographers. It exists because the owners are providing a product and making a profit from it. It obviously does not fit everyone, but for some, it would seem to be a good solution.

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:21 PM

WmPat
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p.4 #6 · MaxPreps.com

bonnerkopf wrote:
...... After all, let's face it, a lot of the ambient light stuff that a lot of people shoot, and sometimes post on here, is utter crap. .....
True, and some of the strobed stuff falls into that same category.

bonnerkopf wrote:
..... Since that is not apparently their core business, they don't focus on it, I am assuming. They have bigger fish to fry .....

bonnerkopf, what do you consider their "core business" to be?

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:24 PM

bonnerkopf
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p.4 #7 · MaxPreps.com

WmPat wrote:
bonnerkopf, what do you consider their "core business" to be?

True, and some of the strobed stuff falls into that same category.

I agree. But if you look at the real pros on here that provide consistent quality results, it is usually strobed, unless they are in very bright venues. And the general consensus from those who have been at it a long time, not just here and there, but do it regularly, would be strobes. Of course, that would not be unanimous.

I guess I was also trying to say that lots of people that are inexperienced are just happy they made a picture and think it is wonderful, but compared to quality work, it usually isn't. And I think anyone would agree that the better the lighting, the better the picture that is made.

WmPat, I have no idea what their core business is. Others who know far more than I about them, and these are people I trust on here, have said that it isn't, so I go with that. That is why I used the words "apparently not" and "assuming", as I was not capable of making a definitive statement about them.

Edited on Feb 08, 2008 at 04:33 PM

Feb 08, 2008 at 04:31 PM

frozenrope
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p.4 #8 · MaxPreps.com

WmPat wrote:
If not the selling of photos of HS sports, what is the main business of MaxPreps.com?

Look at their website. It's pretty easy to figure out. They are a large database of statistics, boxscores, player profiles, articles and they provide pictures. They are by far and away the best website for HS sports information in the country. There is no fee to the school to participate. The coach or a booster (whomever is designated by the team) simply provides the data from their games via upload. The photographer (when there is a MP photog there) edits and uploads his gallery for the Photo Editor's approval. The photographer, as part of his upload process, tags the photos to the team and to the players whenever possible. The photos are used for editorial purposes on the MP site and are available for purchase.

Feb 08, 2008 at 05:45 PM

frozenrope
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p.4 #9 · MaxPreps.com

john_a_g wrote:
UMM, that's the part I'm missing. People from another state aren't going to buy a photo of Podunk high football player. Only Podunk High parents are interested in those photos. SO, it's only THEIR traffic that matters. THAT is my point. How does Maxpreps get THEM to their site. They're the only ones that buy. So, how does maxpreps market themselves in a new area? How do they get the residents of that area to their site? The fact that thousands of Californians visit their site doesn't help me a bit since I'm not in California. Your argument makes a...Show more →

They get people to their site by getting the word out to the schools, boosters, players and coaches. Once the players know there is a site out there that has all the information about their team, they go and they keep going. Maxpreps, just like any other company when expanding into a new territory has to find a way to get the word out to the masses. If they don't do that, their business model will fail and their all important traffic statistics, which drive the advertising revenue will dry up and take the advertising with it. They need to drive traffic to their site in order to accomplish their business plan. They had to start out the same way in CA. After a while the word spread, more and more schools started participating and now the great majority of schools in CA participate. Certainly if the market you are in does not have a MaxPreps presence, then there isn't going to be a whole lot of benefit for you or the schools. So wait. When they do move into your area, then decide whether you want to be part of what they are doing.

Feb 08, 2008 at 06:02 PM

john_a_g
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p.4 #10 · MaxPreps.com

frozenrope wrote:
Certainly if the market you are in does not have a MaxPreps presence, then there isn't going to be a whole lot of benefit for you or the schools. So wait. When they do move into your area, then decide whether you want to be part of what they are doing.

Now that makes sense.

Feb 08, 2008 at 06:17 PM

frozenrope
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p.4 #11 · MaxPreps.com

john_a_g wrote:
Now that makes sense.

I have my moments.

Feb 08, 2008 at 06:31 PM

Steve Ickes
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p.4 #12 · MaxPreps.com

john_a_g wrote:
Steve, call it what you will - but that's just plain wrong. I'm sorry. You're hiding behind technicalities. You're still selling prints and infringing upon another photographer's turf. YOU profit from the print sales. I'm OK with the idea of maxpreps getting people access. But if I had a contract to exclusively sell images for a school and you came in and hiding behind the maxpreps guise of being a media outlet sold images. To me that's just immoral business behavior. You aren't shooting that game for press work. You're shooting the game for print sales profit. I honestly hope...Show more →

I do see what you're saying but if that is truly the case, do you attempt to toss a local newspaper shooter out of a venue? If you have a contract are you threatened when a newspaper photographer shows up? Because the reality is that all papers now have galleries of images for sale. You might say that the newspaper shooter doesn't profit from the sale of individual prints. In some cases you might be correct however in others you would be wrong. I know of several local papers who do pay their photogs a small percentage of sales. I don't think this is the norm but it does occur. So where do you draw the line between newspapers selling individual images and someone like Maxpreps doing the same? What makes Maxpreps any less editorial than a local paper? I think this has been the crux of the issue in Illinois. If I decide that what you say is true and stop shooting for Maxpreps but then freelance for the local paper, what is the difference in your opinion?

And quite frankly, if parents find a better or higher quality shot through the local paper or on Maxpreps why shouldn't they be allowed to purchase? Or what if the "official" photographer didn't happen to get a good shot, or any shots of their son or daughter? What if the official photographer decided not to cover that specific event? I've covered many football games where the official photographer was no where to be found. Who is really losing out the official photographer or the parents? I've seen far too many photographers get an exclusive contract and simply use it to keep others out. They get the contract, show up to a game or two and then disappear knowing that no one else is allowed to shoot and sell. I contract with several schools and I do everything I can to make sure I provide adequate coverage even if that means hiring a freelancer from time to time.

Edited on Feb 09, 2008 at 01:23 AM

Feb 09, 2008 at 01:10 AM

john_a_g
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p.4 #13 · MaxPreps.com

Steve,
First I have no issue with you shooting for maxpreps - none at all. But let's remember - YOU choose what games to shoot. So the decision is in YOUR hands whether you are going to infringe on another photog's contract.

It's a matter of personal ethics. YOU could choose to cover a different game that is not under contract. If you do a better job then vie for the contract.
But what's relevant is as I understand it - YOU, not maxpreps decides who you will shoot. I'm all for fair competition. And I dont agree with maxpreps or any other agency advocating violating a photographer's contract to make money. I'm not OK with the papers doing it either. But at some point you have to decide what your ethics are. If you're violating someone's contract today, where does it stop? Is commercial use w/o model releases OK now too? I know I'm kinda on a soapbox here. But imagine someone infringing on YOUR contract with maxpreps and using the photos for commercial purposes? Ethically (if not legally) it's the same thing you're advocating by hiding behind the press pass to sell prints.

So my suggestion isn't - stop shooting for maxpreps. It's: just consider shooting a different school or game if the one you want is contracted. Or, contact the school and fight for the contract yourself if indeed you can do a better job.

Feb 09, 2008 at 08:36 AM

msauk
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p.4 #14 · MaxPreps.com

Here in Utah no one has a contract that I have come across. Though I will be contacting a few school's to see about getting a exclusive contract with them in the coming months.

I would not shoot a game where another photog has those rights. I love that I get to pick what games I want to shoot and how often (usually 3 times a week anyways). Like next week I am going to travel down to Provo (30 minutes away) to cover one of the top schools in the state.

Anyways I have enjoyed my time with maxpreps and will continue to shoot for them. I finally got my gear yesterday and wore it to the game. I can't believe how many people came up to me and asked about it or said oh hey that's a maxpreps guy. It was nice to see that lol I have been shooting with no gear from them so no one really had an idea who I was at times. But once I put that on many people came up to me and said shoot this and that kid, or hey what is maxpreps, or that site is really cool, etc...

Feb 09, 2008 at 11:24 AM

Marty Bingham
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p.4 #15 · MaxPreps.com

Steve Ickes wrote:
Even if I could do it and get away with it, I'm not about to "scab" another photographers contract just to sell a handful of prints. However, with Maxpreps I can shoot the game and not violate anyone's contract since Maxpreps is a media outlet and the selling of prints is incidental to their goal of providing editorial content.

Hmm............ Maybe I'm not so paranoid after all:worried:

Marty

Feb 10, 2008 at 01:48 PM

frozenrope
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p.4 #16 · MaxPreps.com

How do you get that from his post?

Feb 11, 2008 at 12:09 AM

WmPat
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p.4 #17 · MaxPreps.com

I guess my area is just behind what MP is doing for California, etc. The only thing they have for us are schedules and results; and most of them are incomplete and inaccurate. School names are misspelled, and sometimes placed in the wrong state. One time they ranked a team as #1 in our state and another (correct) state at the same time. I sent them an e-mail with the correction and they said that it had to come from the school's AD so that they could be sure that it wasn't just kids screwing around. The correction was made after the end of the season when nobody was paying attention to football anymore.

It could be a very good thing for sports fans and photographers too, but they have a ways to go out here on the East coast. Then again, they may become spoiled by success and try to pull a Getty on HS sports. That would be a shame.

Feb 11, 2008 at 12:27 AM

frozenrope
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p.4 #18 · MaxPreps.com

Like I said before, it takes a while to build in every are they move into. MP relies heavily on the participation of the AD's and the Coaches. If schedules etc have the wrong info, it's because someone fed them the wrong info. They try very hard to make sure what they post is accurate but there is a large dependence on others to provide it.

And by the way, trying to do what Getty did in pro sports at the High school level amounts not only to a complete shift in their business model but also a monumental undertaking considering the amount of organizations and schools within those organizations (public and private).

Feb 11, 2008 at 12:54 AM

Mark Peters
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p.4 #19 · MaxPreps.com

frozenrope wrote:
trying to do what Getty did in pro sports at the High school level

Is that supposed to be seen as a good thing?

Feb 11, 2008 at 12:57 AM

frozenrope
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p.4 #20 · MaxPreps.com

What is the point of taking that out of context tinfoil? I was responding to the previous poster's contention.

Edited on Feb 11, 2008 at 01:11 AM

Feb 11, 2008 at 01:09 AM

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