I feel compelled to offer an alternative view regarding the non flying F22 at RIAT yesterday. All IMHO.
Facts.
1) I was at the event and keen to see the F22 for the first time.
2) Prior to the F22 slot there where two other fast jet no fly decisions – including the RAF Typhoon.
3) The RIAT and USAF commentators are not part of the fly / no fly decision making process - by design and regulation.
4) Aircraft taking part in the display are flying under display rules and not operational rules.
5) MAA (Military Aviation Authority) display rules mandate that all displays are planned and approved prior to the event. This includes visibility minima – both horizontal and vertical. This is done for many reasons, one of which is to stop pilots making it up as they go along or giving it a go – to entertain the crowd.
6) Planning the display programme takes into account MAA rules, Aircraft operator rules, Aircraft type rules, and the way that all those map onto the geography of the display site and it’s surrounding area, and weather conditions at the time of the display.
7) Once all the items in (6) are satisfied then the display may commence subject to ATC clearance.
8) Both the Display Director and the PIC (Pilot In Command) can call a stop at any time.
Background.
1) The visibility – both H and V – was highly variable all day.
2) There was no established cloud base prior to the F22 display slot. Announced reports varied between 800 and 1200 feet.
3) The first fast jet display in the programme (Czech Gripen) flew several horizontal circles, and went into and out of cloud rapidly and repeatedly.
Opinion.
1) I was very disappointed that the poor weather prevented some types from flying and compelled many others to fly flat displays.
2) I am very thankful that there where no misshapes, or accidents.
3) This stuff is difficult. Despite all the planning and rules – IMHO – we had at least one bust of the display line.
4) I’m delighted that there was clear evidence of the balance, between putting on a show and strict observance of the rules, being actively managed.
5) I’m sad and disappointed that the standing, or commitment of service men / women should be called into question on the basis of no evidence what so ever.
nickjohnson wrote:
I feel compelled to offer an alternative view regarding the non flying F22 at RIAT yesterday. All IMHO.
Facts.
1) I was at the event and keen to see the F22 for the first time.
2) Prior to the F22 slot there where two other fast jet no fly decisions – including the RAF Typhoon.
3) The RIAT and USAF commentators are not part of the fly / no fly decision making process - by design and regulation.
4) Aircraft taking part in the display are flying under display rules and not operational rules.
5) MAA (Military Aviation Authority) display rules mandate that all displays are planned and approved prior to the event. This includes visibility minima – both horizontal and vertical. This is done for many reasons, one of which is to stop pilots making it up as they go along or giving it a go – to entertain the crowd.
6) Planning the display programme takes into account MAA rules, Aircraft operator rules, Aircraft type rules, and the way that all those map onto the geography of the display site and it’s surrounding area, and weather conditions at the time of the display.
7) Once all the items in (6) are satisfied then the display may commence subject to ATC clearance.
8) Both the Display Director and the PIC (Pilot In Command) can call a stop at any time.
Background.
1) The visibility – both H and V – was highly variable all day.
2) There was no established cloud base prior to the F22 display slot. Announced reports varied between 800 and 1200 feet.
3) The first fast jet display in the programme (Czech Gripen) flew several horizontal circles, and went into and out of cloud rapidly and repeatedly.
Opinion.
1) I was very disappointed that the poor weather prevented some types from flying and compelled many others to fly flat displays.
2) I am very thankful that there where no misshapes, or accidents.
3) This stuff is difficult. Despite all the planning and rules – IMHO – we had at least one bust of the display line.
4) I’m delighted that there was clear evidence of the balance, between putting on a show and strict observance of the rules, being actively managed.
5) I’m sad and disappointed that the standing, or commitment of service men / women should be called into question on the basis of no evidence what so ever. ...Show more →
Nick...
If I remember correctly, they said clearly yesterday that F22 cannot perform most of the action due to the low cloud base, so no use of doing a flat fly-pass, thus cancelled the take off, which I totally agree with.
Back in 2014, in Bahrain Airshow (I was there and witnessed it), the Typhoon performed (for more than 15 minutes) under heavy rain and strong wind (with high cloud base) while UAE F-16 and Saudi Hawks cancelled theirs!
My opinion (and others the same whom I was talking to), the last several accidents both in the UK and the US did harm the airshow industry (I fully understand why from safety point-of-view), introducing new strict rules and regulations that got me and others bored. Those turned the airshow into a flat boring celebration of colors and music, with no real action, no real performance, no real stunts... Why should I bother myself into attending an airshow with normal slow boring fly-pass (even they are not allowing high speed fly-pass now!!!), no breaking sound barrier, no real aerobatics, nothing...
I am expecting a total destruction of the airshow industry, provided that things continue the same way as they are now.
alawadhi wrote:
(deleted)
I expected something that causes anyone to travel for to see. What I saw was "bunch of children in some old Ford Mustang cars with some heavymetal noise in the neighborhood smoking weed".
Is that the "reputation" of a US Air Force display team?!
Sorry to say that, I mean no offense, it was like that!!
Anwar,
I am very sorry to hear that. That is not the image the Air Force wants the Thunderbirds to place in front of the public. As a U.S. citizen, it is not the image I want my countries military personnel to project either.
If I had observed the actions you describe, I would be sending the base commander at Nellis an e-mail, along with copies of any photos I had that showed such activity by Air Force personnel.
I am very sorry to hear that. That is not the image the Air Force wants the Thunderbirds to place in front of the public. As a U.S. citizen, it is not the image I want my countries military personnel to project either.
If I had observed the actions you describe, I would be sending the base commander at Nellis an e-mail, along with copies of any photos I had that showed such activity by Air Force personnel.
I think you got it wrong my friend, based on: If I had observed the actions you describe, I would be sending the base commander at Nellis an e-mail, along with copies of any photos I had that showed such activity by Air Force personnel.
What I meant was: the airshow performance done by the Thunderbirds is not up to the level of street boys even (IMO). Any beginner can perform what they showed, formation fly-pass, formation loop, formation take-off!!! Really!!!
I will refuse a US $1 million cash to watch them again!!!! even in youtube!!
I've gotta say, I disagree with your take on the USAF acts...was it their best show? No. But the UK regs are significantly different from the US regs, and they adjusted their show to meet them as best as they could. The result was a little disjointed at times due to a delay between some of the passes caused by not being allowed to overfly the crowd. You have to keep in mind that their performance is rehearsed, fine tuned, and rehearsed some more. They flew a rehearsal on Wednesday and ended up in the penalty box because a few of their passes didn't meet the UK regs (their sneak pass was too low, too fast, and too close to the crowd for example).
I respectfully object to your characterization of their act. They did what they could, which included having to fly in spare parts overnight on Saturday due to numerous mechanical issues (you'll notice in your pictures that the two seater flew Friday and Saturday).
As for your assertion that the airshow industry is going to die...you just attended and airshow that was attended by 150'000+ people. I respect that you may not like the American style of performance act which is all choreographed to music (pretty much every North American act is set to music), but try to remember that everyone's taste is different, and going to an airshow like RIAT is all about seeing how other people do things. The thunderbirds draw huge crowds wherever they go in the states, as do the blues (also set to music) and seldom get complaints. Their show is only marginally different (being slightly faster and with a few lines overhead passes) here, but that can't be blamed on them. They're just trying to adhere to a different set of regs.
It's unfortunate that it wasn't well received, but comparing them to the other acts at the show they did a darn good job given the conditions in my opinion.
As for the F-22 being unable to fly on Saturday, the P-51 checked the cloud layer (heard on the scanner), it was too low for him to perform his demo. He was too loaded up with fuel to do low altitude maneuvers, so it was what it was. Does it suck? Sure. But it's better to err on the side of safety than attempt to make it work and fail.
If your objection is just that the thunderbirds are full of themselves...they're the Air Force :-P
Go4Long wrote:
I've been in FRIAT all weekend alawadhi.
Did not happen to meet physically, which is bad , while I was wearing the thread's logo all days.
I've gotta say, I disagree with your take on the USAF acts...was it their best show? No. But the UK regs are significantly different from the US regs, and they adjusted their show to meet them as best as they could. The result was a little disjointed at times due to a delay between some of the passes caused by not being allowed to overfly the crowd. You have to keep in mind that their performance is rehearsed, fine tuned, and rehearsed some more. They flew a rehearsal on Wednesday and ended up in the penalty box because a few of their passes didn't meet the UK regs (their sneak pass was too low, too fast, and too close to the crowd for example).
I respectfully object to your characterization of their act. They did what they could, which included having to fly in spare parts overnight on Saturday due to numerous mechanical issues (you'll notice in your pictures that the two seater flew Friday and Saturday)....Show more →
For rules and regulations, I fully agree and understand that, which I indicated in my response. The thing is, the line between safety and great show is damaging, by the way I will select safety so do not take me wrong!
As for your assertion that the airshow industry is going to die...you just attended and airshow that was attended by 150'000+ people. I respect that you may not like the American style of performance act which is all choreographed to music (pretty much every North American act is set to music), but try to remember that everyone's taste is different, and going to an airshow like RIAT is all about seeing how other people do things. The thunderbirds draw huge crowds wherever they go in the states, as do the blues (also set to music) and seldom get complaints. Their show is only marginally different (being slightly faster and with a few lines overhead passes) here, but that can't be blamed on them. They're just trying to adhere to a different set of regs....Show more →
I like music by the way, I just got disappointed by their performance, again I understand that rules and regulations forced them.
As for the F-22 being unable to fly on Saturday, the P-51 checked the cloud layer (heard on the scanner), it was too low for him to perform his demo. He was too loaded up with fuel to do low altitude maneuvers, so it was what it was. Does it suck? Sure. But it's better to err on the side of safety than attempt to make it work and fail.
Over the PA they told everyone that the cloud base was not suitable for what the Raptor would do, so cancelling was the best choice IMO.
If your objection is just that the thunderbirds are full of themselves...they're the Air Force :-P
alawadhi wrote:
I just got disappointed by their performance, again I understand that rules and regulations forced them.
Just out of curiosity, was this the first time you saw the Thunderbirds? Have you ever seen the Blue Angels?
I am asking because I feel their performances and their approach is significantly different from what's used by the Frecce Tricolore, the Red Arrows or the Patrouille de France.
I also think the type of planes they use play a role here and I consider the Patrouille Suisse sitting somewhere in the middle.
Massimo Foti wrote:
Just out of curiosity, was this the first time you saw the Thunderbirds? Have you ever seen the Blue Angels?
I am asking because I feel their performances and their approach is significantly different from what's used by the Frecce Tricolore, the Red Arrows or the Patrouille de France.
I also think the type of planes they use play a role here and I consider the Patrouille Suisse sitting somewhere in the middle.
Massimo
First time physically yes. Personally I do not like Frecce Tricolore (no action in theirs).
I love Red Arrows (physically several times) and Blue Angels (youtube)
alawadhi wrote:
First time physically yes. Personally I do not like Frecce Tricolore (no action in theirs).
I love Red Arrows (physically several times) and Blue Angels (youtube)
I am afraid the Blue Angels would disappoint you if seen live, just like Thunderbirds did.
What's your take on Patrouille Suisse? They were at RIAT I think.
I am asking not because I think they are superior, it's just that I feel their style sits somewhat in the middle between the Thunderbirds and Red Arrows (again, also due to different kind of planes)
If I remember correctly, they said clearly yesterday that F22 cannot perform most of the action due to the low cloud base, so no use of doing a flat fly-pass, thus cancelled the take off, which I totally agree with.
Back in 2014, in Bahrain Airshow (I was there and witnessed it), the Typhoon performed (for more than 15 minutes) under heavy rain and strong wind (with high cloud base) while UAE F-16 and Saudi Hawks cancelled theirs!
My opinion (and others the same whom I was talking to), the last several accidents both in the UK and the US did harm the airshow industry (I fully understand why from safety point-of-view), introducing new strict rules and regulations that got me and others bored. Those turned the airshow into a flat boring celebration of colors and music, with no real action, no real performance, no real stunts... Why should I bother myself into attending an airshow with normal slow boring fly-pass (even they are not allowing high speed fly-pass now!!!), no breaking sound barrier, no real aerobatics, nothing...
I am expecting a total destruction of the airshow industry, provided that things continue the same way as they are now....Show more →
Anwar,
I'm sorry to learn of your disappointment with current air shows. Clearly you've travelled a long way only to find reality falling way short of expectation. Not good.
Your recollection of the Bahrain show illustrates some of the difficulties perfectly. Yes, the Typhoon could display in spite of wind and rain. Yes, it's no surprise that the Saudi Hawks could not display. Different aircraft and a formation rather than a singleton. BTW, I have fond memories of the Saudi Hawks from several years ago at Yeovilton.
Speaking strictly about the UK Air Show Industry - you may be right - a permanent decline may happen. The new rules have made many venues non viable. Even the biannual commercial show at Farnborough is having major problems due to proximity of housing. Having read the AAIB reports concerning the recent accidents, I have to say the Industry has bought the new restrictive climate upon itself. In those reports there are large numbers of (IMHO) appalling bad practices and blatant circumvention of the intent if not the letter of the rules. Martin Bakers blanket refusal to have anything to do with their seats fitted to civil registered ex-military jets may be the writing on the wall. Eventually the supply of parts will dry up - or the skilled and experienced labour will simply retire / die.
, since he's in England...
