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Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel

  
 
gerov
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p.1160 #1 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


You know, when you look at the service life they're giving the B52s, you have to stop, sit, and ask yourself - how can you not get the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it or get rid of it" mantra...



Jul 07, 2025 at 06:21 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1160 #2 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


gerov wrote:
You know, when you look at the service life they're giving the B52s, you have to stop, sit, and ask yourself - how can you not get the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it or get rid of it" mantra...


Gero, the USAF leadership does not necessarily think with common sense like you and most people. They do not like low and slow. (The B-52 doesn't fly low and nothing in their current inventory can match the B-52 capabilities. It is like the DC-3 of bombers.)

A-10 Thunderbolt II: 15-20 man-hours of maintenance per flight hour
F-35A: 3.8–4.79 man-hours per flight hour
F-35B: 7.7 man-hours per flight hour
F-35C: 6.5–7.55 man-hours per flight hour

To your point, the USAF has said the A-10 cost to much to maintain thus they are going to replace it with the F-35. Well let us compare A-10 maintenance costs to theF-35: (MMH/FH- maintenance man hours per flight hour.)

The A-10’s higher MMH/FH (15–20) reflects its older design and the wear from operating in harsh environments, but its maintenance is less costly per hour due to simpler systems and cheaper parts. For example, the A-10’s operating cost is around $6,000–$22,531 per flight hour, compared to the F-35A’s $28,455–$42,000.
The F-35’s lower MMH/FH is a result of modern design efficiencies, such as onboard diagnostics and modular parts, but its high-tech components (e.g., $180,000 landing gear, $500,000 sensor modules) drive up overall costs. Supply chain issues and proprietary parts further complicate F-35 maintenance, sometimes leading to longer downtime (e.g., 141 days for some repairs).
The A-10’s ability to operate with “light support” from forward bases contrasts with the F-35’s reliance on specialized facilities, which can increase logistical overhead despite lower MMH/FH.



Jul 07, 2025 at 07:19 PM
Bill Gass
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p.1160 #3 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Don't forget about that $400,000.00+ custom fitted helmet for them F-35...


Jul 07, 2025 at 10:45 PM
gerov
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p.1160 #4 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
Gero, the USAF leadership does not necessarily think with common sense like you and most people. They do not like low and slow. (The B-52 doesn't fly low and nothing in their current inventory can match the B-52 capabilities. It is like the DC-3 of bombers.)

A-10 Thunderbolt II: 15-20 man-hours of maintenance per flight hour
F-35A: 3.8–4.79 man-hours per flight hour
F-35B: 7.7 man-hours per flight hour
F-35C: 6.5–7.55 man-hours per flight hour

To your point, the USAF has said the A-10 cost to much to maintain thus they are going to replace it with the F-35. Well let us compare A-10
...Show more

Thanks Ray, for that excellent and informative response. I also think about survivability - I'm not sure an F-35 could take the kind of abuse we've seen A-10s return from the battlefield with and be able to fly again...



Jul 08, 2025 at 07:03 AM
JWilsonphoto
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p.1160 #5 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Good Morning Guys!

Finally made it back to DFW early this morning, six hours late due to mechanical/weather, and "the dog ate my homework". Looking at the bright side, the flight was quiet, plenty of room and there was no traffic on the road at 1am. Now to dig into all the needs that popped up while I was gone. I have to head out to a double business lunch but managed to get my Mavic 4 Pro unboxed and on the charger. My computer is grinding away backing up the 6 tbs of imagery that I shot on the trip.

BTW, those monkeys were captured in the wild at Silver Springs Park in the Ocala National Forest. I didn't have time to get out on the Silver River so I hiked about 10 miles that day and found a few of them.There are several hundred in the park and surrounding forest. Their ancestors were brought there a long time ago to create more tourism interest in Silver Springs and they have adapted well.

Edited on Jul 08, 2025 at 07:15 PM · View previous versions



Jul 08, 2025 at 09:34 AM
Danpbphoto
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p.1160 #6 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


gerov wrote:
Thanks Ray, for that excellent and informative response. I also think about survivability - I'm not sure an F-35 could take the kind of abuse we've seen A-10s return from the battlefield with and be able to fly again...

Gero and Ray..Ray you mechanics are the heart of any aircraft!
My limited understanding of the A10 was that it was the USAF replacement for the Vietnam era "Skyraider-Sandy". There was a huge need for an aircraft that could supply CAS, Close Air Support. An upgrade if you will.
In Vietnam we needed an aircraft that was "slow enough" that when troopers were "in contact" we could relay hand signals to the "driver" from the ground. A must when trying to manuever around attacking troops and planting ordinance to stop that.

The "skin" of the A10 was Titanium Armor..."Could take a licking and keep on ticking!"
Thanks to ALL you "mechs"..you saved many a troopers "six".
Dan









Jul 08, 2025 at 09:53 AM
Ray Swindle
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p.1160 #7 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Looks long but it is a quick read from Grok:

"Was the Air Force 100% Behind the Development?
No, the Air Force was not fully unified in its support for the A-10’s development. There were significant debates and resistance within the Air Force and the broader Department of Defense (DoD) for several reasons:

Strategic Priorities: During the 1960s and 1970s, the Air Force leadership prioritized air superiority and strategic bombing roles, focusing on high-tech, multi-role fighters like the F-15 and F-16. The A-10, with its slow speed and specialized CAS role, was seen by some as less glamorous and a diversion of resources from these priorities.
Inter-Service Rivalry: The Army pushed for a dedicated CAS aircraft, as it relied heavily on air support in Vietnam and feared the Air Force was neglecting this mission. This led to tensions, with the Air Force initially resisting a dedicated CAS platform, preferring multi-role aircraft. The A-10’s development was partly a response to Army pressure and congressional oversight, which mandated the Air Force to address CAS needs.
Doctrinal Disputes: Some Air Force leaders argued that CAS could be adequately performed by existing aircraft or helicopters (like the Army’s AH-1 Cobra). They questioned the need for a specialized platform like the A-10, especially given its vulnerability to advanced air defenses.
Program Challenges: The A-10 program faced skepticism during its development due to cost overruns, technical challenges, and debates over its survivability against Soviet air defenses. Critics within the Air Force argued that faster, more versatile aircraft could perform CAS while also fulfilling other roles.
Support and Compromise:
Despite resistance, the A-10 had strong advocates, particularly among those who recognized the unique demands of CAS. The Air Force ultimately committed to the program after competitive prototyping between the Fairchild Republic A-10 and the Northrop YA-9, with the A-10 winning due to its superior design for the CAS role. Congressional and Army pressure, combined with the clear need for a tank-killing platform, ensured the program’s continuation. The Air Force’s acceptance was partly pragmatic, as the A-10 filled a gap that other aircraft couldn’t effectively address.

Outcome:
The A-10 entered service in 1976 and proved its worth in conflicts like the Gulf War, Afghanistan, and Iraq, where its effectiveness in CAS and tank destruction earned it a loyal following among ground troops. However, the Air Force’s ambivalence persisted, with repeated attempts to retire the A-10 in favor of multi-role fighters like the F-35, often citing budget constraints and evolving threats. These efforts have been met with resistance from Congress and ground forces, highlighting the ongoing tension over the A-10’s role.

In summary, the A-10 was developed to address a critical CAS and anti-armor need, but the Air Force was not fully behind it due to competing priorities, doctrinal debates, and inter-service dynamics. The program succeeded due to external pressures and the aircraft’s proven effectiveness, despite not having universal support within a Air Force."



Jul 08, 2025 at 10:32 AM
Ray Swindle
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p.1160 #8 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


I am wondering if the US Army and Marines push for their own CAS. Multi role fighters are really nice overall aircraft, good at a lot of missions, master of none. The A-10 is the master of CAS. It will be missed.


Jul 08, 2025 at 10:34 AM
Douglas L
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p.1160 #9 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Thanks for digging up all the A-10 info, Ray! I have been hearing A-10's retirement for the last 20 years, I think. I haven't had the chance of seeing one firing the gun. I think there is a training ground about an hour from where I live and the Maryland Air Guard flies (or flew) A-10s.

A few shots from 4 weeks ago at the rehearsal in Ocean City, MD, horrible weather. This could be the last time I got to see A-10 flying.




  ILCE-1M2    FE 400-800mm F6.3-8 G OSS lens    630mm    f/8.0    1/3200s    500 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1M2    FE 400-800mm F6.3-8 G OSS lens    800mm    f/8.0    1/3200s    400 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1M2    FE 400-800mm F6.3-8 G OSS lens    500mm    f/7.1    1/4000s    500 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jul 08, 2025 at 01:21 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1160 #10 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
I am wondering if the US Army and Marines push for their own CAS. Multi role fighters are really nice overall aircraft, good at a lot of missions, master of none. The A-10 is the master of CAS. It will be missed.

Ray I can only address this from my 2 years in Vietnam. CAS was a critical part of a Long Range Recon Pltns-MACV-SOG, survival! When a six man team is caught in an uncomfortable situation, CAS was essential to our survival. "Tracked vehicle support" could NOT manuever through the dense jungle floor effectively so it remained "out of the equation".
"Sandy" was our CAS! God bless them all!

We did, for many years AFTER I served there! Fell on deaf ears! We had a political, and in 1 high Cabinet level, roadblock to our requests for modified CAS to help "Sandy". Way above my pay grade!.
Dan




Jul 08, 2025 at 01:45 PM
 


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Danpbphoto
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p.1160 #11 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Douglas L wrote:
Thanks for digging up all the A-10 info, Ray! I have been hearing A-10's retirement for the last 20 years, I think. I haven't had the chance of seeing one firing the gun. I think there is a training ground about an hour from where I live and the Maryland Air Guard flies (or flew) A-10s.

A few shots from 4 weeks ago at the rehearsal in Ocean City, MD, horrible weather. This could be the last time I got to see A-10 flying.


#1 is absolutely stunning Douglass!!!!!!!!
You print photos? I WANT one!
Dan



Jul 08, 2025 at 01:48 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1160 #12 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Ray Swindle wrote:
I am wondering if the US Army and Marines push for their own CAS. Multi role fighters are really nice overall aircraft, good at a lot of missions, master of none. The A-10 is the master of CAS. It will be missed.

What scares me Ray is with all the non manned Infantry/CAS available, will someone ever supply such an aircraft? Me thinks NOT! Sad state of affairs! Hope they prove me WRONG! I can almost hear the radio traffic from a unit, "a One Two-1/ 2", Team radio man, in contact needing help from an AI delivered drone! không hiểu GI!

I can tell you with some certainity that this "idea" is on the "back burner."
Dan
" I quote: Yes, close air support (CAS) aircraft are a reality in 2025 and will continue to be a crucial part of military operations. While the A-10 Thunderbolt II remains a mainstay, the USAF is exploring alternatives and developing new technologies to enhance CAS capabilities for the future, including the integration of unmanned systems and multi-domain operations. The US Special Operations Command is also actively pursuing a new CAS platform for its Armed Overwatch program.
Special Operations Forces:
The US Special Operations Command is actively pursuing a new CAS aircraft under the Armed Overwatch program, aiming to replace the current Pilatus PC-12 U-28A Draco with an aircraft that can handle reconnaissance, surveillance, and close air support missions. " This quote was from May 2022!

Key here is "unmanned" and multi tactical functionality.





Jul 08, 2025 at 01:50 PM
Douglas L
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p.1160 #13 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Danpbphoto wrote:
#1 is absolutely stunning Douglass!!!!!!!!
You print photos? I WANT one!
Dan


Thank you Dan! Here are some from the last couple years. I don't print pictures myself but if there are particular ones you like to have, I will be happy to have them professionally printed and sent to you. It will be my honor if someone hangs the pictures I took on their walls.




  ILCE-1    FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS lens    576mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    320 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS lens    600mm    f/6.3    1/2500s    200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 200-600mm F5.6-6.3 G OSS lens    600mm    f/6.3    1/2500s    250 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS lens    600mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    400 ISO    +0.7 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    320 ISO    +0.3 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    320 ISO    +0.3 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    320 ISO    +0.3 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/3200s    400 ISO    +0.3 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/2500s    400 ISO    0.0 EV  






  ILCE-1    FE 600mm F4 GM OSS + 1.4X Teleconverter lens    840mm    f/6.3    1/2500s    400 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jul 08, 2025 at 02:59 PM
KevinJacksonUK
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p.1160 #14 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Love that last couple of the heritage jet with the ferry tank, very envious of that one!


Jul 08, 2025 at 04:12 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1160 #15 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Douglas L wrote:
Thank you Dan! Here are some from the last couple years. I don't print pictures myself but if there are particular ones you like to have, I will be happy to have them professionally printed and sent to you. It will be my honor if someone hangs the pictures I took on their walls.

Douglas these are just fantastic photography brother!
I spent some time many years ago at Martin State airport in Middle River(Baltimore) and these "killers" lined the tarmac!
There were 2 A10's that had the Maryland flag as a paint scheme and they were beautiful! I believe Maryland has the finest looking State flag of any state!

I appreciate your offer Douglas but I do not want you to spend any money.
Dan

The design is from English heraldry rather than featuring a state seal on a plain background
. It's a striking and historically rich banner composed of two distinct coats of arms:
Calvert Family Arms (Black and Gold)
Crossland Family Arms (Red and White)








Edited on Jul 11, 2025 at 10:13 AM · View previous versions



Jul 09, 2025 at 09:31 AM
JSTORBECK
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p.1160 #16 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


We used to have A10's in the area growing up and i miss hearing them roar over the house to and from base. Sad day when they stopped the demo team from coming to the air shows.


Jul 10, 2025 at 05:45 AM
KevinJacksonUK
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p.1160 #17 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


French Naval carrier aviation, yesterday and today.

SEM-46-001-July2015 by Kevin Jackson, on Flickr

RafaleM-40-001-July2015 by Kevin Jackson, on Flickr



Jul 10, 2025 at 02:08 PM
Bill Gass
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p.1160 #18 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


WOW Kevin I recognize the second picture and when you posted it...Long time ago.
I liked it so much that I screen shot it on ‎December ‎22, ‎2015, ‏‎2:40:41 PM.
That way I would have a picture that I would dream of getting and the quality was so good on this.
I just looked and I still have it...
Killer pix !!!



Jul 10, 2025 at 03:50 PM
gerov
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p.1160 #19 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


Very cool angles, Kevin. What a difference in the airframe design!


Jul 10, 2025 at 07:42 PM
Ray Swindle
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p.1160 #20 · Mustang Air to Air: The Sequel


KevinJacksonUK wrote:
French Naval carrier aviation, yesterday and today.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54645371352_49fe0a0622_b.jpgSEM-46-001-July2015 by Kevin Jackson, on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54646462923_35c9cfd70b_b.jpgRafaleM-40-001-July2015 by Kevin Jackson, on Flickr


If you have time, just repost everything you have posted before. I have plenty of time to look at wonderful aircraft photography! Stunning air to air over the water!



Jul 10, 2025 at 09:09 PM
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