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Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

  
 
bcaslis
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p.38 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Hrow wrote:
I am told that the focus indicator only appears as red if you are holding the focus button in when the shutter is released. I am using the * button, getting a confirmation light and beep. and releasing it to make sure that I am not inducing any movement into the tripod.


That could be true. I haven't looked at any shots done this way in the Canon software so there could be difference compared to the shutter button. Sorry about that.




Jan 30, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Jeff
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p.38 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


AGeoJO wrote:
Yes, a few still are not too happy after the fix. Jeff did get a new one, not because of the AF but focus shift. Yes, his was lemon.


I don't agree. Just because the 'Senior Tech' thought the AI Servo errors were due to front-focusing of my lenses doesn't mean that it was replaced for the 'focal plane' issue, which they never actually addressed with me (in fact, they ignored it). The AF was tweaked on that camera, otherwise I don't know how my new camera would have been able to get 75-85% in focus, while the old one could only pull off 50-70% with the same lenses. Just because their testing equipment (apparently) cannot detect whatever was wrong with my camera doesn't mean that it wasn't broken, which essentially is the approach Canon took.

Hrow wrote:
Something else to throw in the mix. The sign was at least 100' away which gives me better than 6 feet of DOF at F4. You'd think after being assigned to a senior tech that he/she would be able to adjust it a little better than that, especially since this is the second trip in and they had a DVD with five different examples and sequences showing the same thing.


Based on that and a DVD of in focus shots from other bodies, you should be asking for a new camera. Or, suggest that they get your camera and a 70-200/2.8L to meet someone with a pair of tennis shoes in the parking lot. In 15 minutes I can discern whether one of these things works, I don't know why they can't do the same.

bcaslis wrote:
I've had problems like you show here, but one thing seems wrong. Your screen capture doesn't show an AF point light up. It almost looks like it didn't have focus confirmation. In ones I've had problems with the AF points shows light up but the show is still blurry.

Don't doubt your problems but it sure looks like this particular shot didn't have AF locked.


Mine don't often show this either because since I use back-button focus, I tend to release the button once it has confirmed focus, out of habit. Just because the software doesn't recognize that fact doesn't mean focus was never achieved, it simply means that the button was released before the shutter was tripped.
---------------------------------




BTW, for those of you conducting focusing tests, I found the perfect focus target:

_ttp://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/down_sample/down_sample_files/Rings1.gif

described in this thread:

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4708.html

"It works by exploiting the interference patterns or moiré between the R/G/B LCD elements and the camera's LCD elements when directly viewed with Life View. With good optics and perfect focus, the moiré is maximized. Depending on shooting distance, choose the Life View zoom setting (full, 5x 10x) that shows it best. When the situation permits, you will see larger R/G/B aliasing of the LCD elements. You'll also notice how narrow the field of focus is, especially with lenses that react strongly to small focus ring rotations."

It sure helped the calibration process go quicker...




Jan 30, 2008 at 12:50 AM
Wickedfn4u
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p.38 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I am totally lost on how you use that eye bugger.

Ah his second post breaks it down. So you shoot that via live view manual then use auto if it moves you tweak it until they are the same. Right?



Jan 30, 2008 at 12:59 AM
apdieb
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p.38 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


WILD.

I am going to get my camera right now to try.




Jan 30, 2008 at 01:07 AM
apdieb
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p.38 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I checked out my 70-200L F2.8 IS, 35L, 17-40L, and 24-105L using this method above... I couldn't adjust them any better than they were with nothing applied. This is probably why I have been so happy with "my" MkIII.

It's possible I could have gone 1 notch either way...but honestly that was splitting hairs so much that I couldn't even be sure... So I left them alone.

Very interesting concept and way of calibration.

I need to check my 50F1.4, 85F1.8 and 300 F2.8 IS at some point...

Thanks for posting this btw..




Jan 30, 2008 at 02:56 AM
Jeff
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p.38 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


You're welcome. At longer distances and wider angles, it's easier than trying to see a little black 'cross' on a contrast target. Once you mess with it a bit, you probably don't even need to shoot images, if only for 'confirmation'.

BTW, Andrew, I wouldn't bother with the 50/1.4; just use it for its strengths, and don't go looking for problems...



Jan 30, 2008 at 09:49 AM
Jeff
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p.38 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Wickedfn4u wrote:
I am totally lost on how you use that eye bugger.

Ah his second post breaks it down. So you shoot that via live view manual then use auto if it moves you tweak it until they are the same. Right?


Basically. I let the camera 'auto' it first, captured the image and inspected using Live View, then focused manually, captured/inspected it, then looked on the computer to see how much difference there was. Once I got the hang, I just used Live View.

It's a pretty ingenious method, and it works!



Jan 30, 2008 at 09:52 AM
k1n3t1k
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p.38 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Any idea how to test the 300 2.8 with the 1.4TC attached? My 300 by itself is insanely sharp, but with the 1.4tc, images are a little soft. Perhaps a bad converter? I had the same results with my 30D.

Is there a chance I got a bad TC, too? How can I test that by itself?

Thanks!
~Travis

P.S. Sorry for getting off-topic from the MK3 discussion, but I figured since we're all trying to calibrate our equipment...



Jan 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM
ward1066
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p.38 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


neat test, all my lenses spot on with +8 dialed in :/


Jan 30, 2008 at 01:13 PM
apdieb
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p.38 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


FYI (not that anyone cares.. )

I finally got my return labels from Canon. Shipping the MKIII out today.

Apparently, my biz line blocks unknown callers (I had no idea I had that turned on.. ugh)...I finally was contacted by a Senior Tech Rep (John E.) via email to get my cell #.

Anyway, I am glad to finally be taking care of this...I have 3 weeks until my next important shoot. Hopefully, I'll have it back before then. If not, I guess the 5D will have to do..

BTW: Jeff - I'll take your advice and leave what's best alone with the 50...




Jan 30, 2008 at 04:12 PM
AJ Nadershahi
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p.38 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


apdieb wrote:
Apparently, my biz line blocks unknown callers (I had no idea I had that turned on.. ugh)...


Ouch!! Wonder how many potential clients were lost because of it.



Jan 30, 2008 at 04:53 PM
Hrow
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p.38 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


A number of people have made some appreciated suggestions and here are the results of way too much testing. Setting the Micro-Adjust to +10 does improve the best of street signs slightly. Problem is that the same percentage of shots still lose focus. The real problem(s) is illustrated below. All shots w/ 300mm F4L, tripod mounted using a cable while exercising great care.

Shot #1 is manually focused.
Shot #2 is the BEST AF shot of a group of five. The worst is noticeably worse. The point here is that the AF system can't match my eyes and they're failing in my old age.
Shot #3 was also manually focused and taken within 15 secs of shot #1 in my kitchen (no lighting change). The only thing I did was defocus, refocus and shoot. Out of 35 shoots in this test sequence 6 are like this randomly dispersed. Major culprit is a 20% reduction in shutter speed though that doesn't help with the color too much.

http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/box_manual+10.jpg

http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/box_auto+10.jpg

http://www.preservationist.net/hrphotos/box_coloroff.jpg


Edited by Hrow on Jan 31, 2008 at 03:57 PM GMT



Jan 31, 2008 at 03:33 PM
apdieb
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p.38 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Does IS happen to be on with the 300? Try turning off while on tripod.. Just curious...It really looks like movement to me...almost like the camera is vibrating during AF or something...weird.

The recipe looks yummy though...





Jan 31, 2008 at 03:53 PM
apdieb
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p.38 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


AJ Nadershahi wrote:
Ouch!! Wonder how many potential clients were lost because of it.



No doubt. Sure hasn't stopped solicitors though..





Jan 31, 2008 at 03:55 PM
Hrow
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p.38 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


apdieb wrote:
Does IS happen to be on with the 300? Try turning off while on tripod.. Just curious...It really looks like movement to me...almost like the camera is vibrating during AF or something...weird.

The recipe looks yummy though...



IS is Off. I let everything stabilize before shooting.



Jan 31, 2008 at 04:43 PM
apdieb
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p.38 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Interesting. Thanks..I'll keep pondering the problem...







Jan 31, 2008 at 05:16 PM
Hrow
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p.38 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I have posted the samples above as a poll in a different thread. Hopefully, and depending on people's reaction, I may be able to illustrate to Canon that I am not just trying to be difficult but have a real problem.


Jan 31, 2008 at 05:24 PM
rceres
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p.38 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Have you tried the focus test linked to above by Jeff?


Jan 31, 2008 at 05:47 PM
Tom_W
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p.38 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Hrow wrote:
IS is Off. I let everything stabilize before shooting.


Good move - according to page 24 of the manual, the 300/4 should not have IS turned on when using a tripod. And, of course, letting everything stabilize is important as well. I just ran a 300/4 I bought through its paces today. Can't forget mirror lockup and letting it settle, even with a relatively light lens like this one.



Jan 31, 2008 at 06:55 PM
Monito
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p.38 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Hrow wrote:
A number of people have made some appreciated suggestions and here are the results of way too much testing. [...] Major culprit is a 20% reduction in shutter speed though that doesn't help with the color too much.


Testing is notoriously difficult. If you go looking for problems, you will find them. Something people don't realize is that though reducing the number of variables is good testing technique, it also puts greater stress on the remaining variables. I'm not saying that there might or might not be problems with this lens, but this test is not convincing and definitely would be shredded in a court of law, as one poster asks.

Did you take a photo of the test setup with another of your cameras to show us? If you only have one camera, did you take the camera off the lens, leaving the lens in place and photograph the test setup? (Assuming you mounted the lens on the tripod, not the camera)

Over what length of time did the shoot take place? Did you interleave the manual focus pictures with the autofocus pictures?

You may think that outdoor sunlight filtered indirectly in through windows is going to be constant, but it is not. Did you make a picture showing the light source? Were there any thin high cloud conditions? Since you said the day was windy outside, was the window partially obscured by moving tree shadows? Reflected light from the ground onto the ceiling and into the picture can also vary if the shadows on the ground move. Vegetation moving in a windy day can reflect varying amounts of light and green into a room depending on the direction and strength of gusts and of calms.

Were all room lights turned off? Were there any sources of specular reflections inside or outide? If you block reflections off one shiny surface inside, a slightly different position of the camera operator can change the amount blocked or not blocked. Was there any street traffic moving? Parked car windows or other buildings reflect varying amounts of light as the sun moves, even a single degree.

What shutter speed? What aperture? What ISO? What metering technique? The pictures look underexposed. Why vary the exposure if you are testing focus? Why weren't they taken all at the same exposure? Have you tested your shutter to see about variability of the shutter duration?

Mirror lockup? How many seconds did you leave it to stabilize? Was the tripod mounted on a wooden floor or a concrete slab? Were there children playing upstairs? Pets running around? Is the site a detached house in the country far from truck traffic, subways, jet aircraft overflights, construction activity? Were other devices like washing machines and refrigerators turned off? Did you stand absolutely frozen for the entire time between touching the lens/camera and clicking the shot?

What Image Stabilization settings? I think it was said that IS was left on. Why? If you are testing focus, best to leave it off. Or make a full set of tests with IS in each of the three settings (0, 1, 2) times manual versus auto for a total of six sets, all interleaved in a random order determined by a random number generator or table of random numbers.

Why did you use a printed picture to introduce all kinds of moire issues? If you wanted flat, you could have mounted a chopping board or other flat wood surface with grain pattern. Moire issues interacting with the sensor can affect color balance. The color balance of lenses can be slightly different at different apertures.

Did you apply trigonometry to ensure parallel surface to the sensor plane?

Did you not have a gray card and color swatch to include? Did you include some pure white paper in the scene? Without neutral gray in the scene to set a color pick point White Balance, AWB will vary extremely. Depending on AWB for comparison between shots is bogus. AWB is meant as guidance for simple programmed automatic picture taking, not as a crutch to lean on. Further, leaving AWB on is to vary over the map under these variable lighting and exposure conditions will lead to variable results.

Without a scene picture, preferably with the photographer in it, it is hard to judge other variables. What color shirt and clothing were you wearing? Where were you standing in relation to the test subject? Did you always stand in exactly the same position with exactly the same pose? Probably not. People are frequently surprised by how much colored surfaces can reflect into a scene. If you are on the opposite side from the light source you will be reflecting a tremendous amount of color into the scene. If you are on the same side as the main light source, your different positions will change the amount of light.

Individual variations of factors show up most strongly in tests such as these. They do not make any practical difference in almost all of the photography we are likely to do in real world conditions. If we are photographing a hawk flying overhead with a 300 mm lens, it does not really matter if we are wearing a red shirt or if we are angled to reflect more or less of the red into the hawk's underbelly. Likewise, if we are making a series of portrait exposures with one lighting setup, we don't leave the camera on AWB from shot to shot, or if we do since we are shooting Raw mode, we figure out the best color balance in post-processing and apply that to all the pictures in the set.

The claim is made that there are differences between the manual exposure series, but I expect that the tests were not interleaved, and so that conditions of lighting and other factors will have changed from one set to the other, since so many factors were uncontrolled.

This test, though well intentioned, and though conducted with some amount of thought and care, is basically worthless for many reasons. At most it is only suggestive, indicating much more rigorous testing is required to isolate or eliminate problems with testing methodology and see if actual equipment problems remain. We buy cameras that are extremely complex instruments designed to be very flexible to handle a huge range of variable situations, but we don't think like scientists when it comes to testing them. Each individual variable will not have much effect, but they are interactive and compounding, such that for example where automatic exposure is being used, when the exposure is near the middle between two shutter settings, it can edge it one way or the other.

Nice try. No prize. No meaningful result. Sorry.



Feb 01, 2008 at 12:14 PM
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