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Archive 2007 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread

  
 
RJJR
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p.9 #1 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


brainiac wrote:
...and in so doing you lose a lot of image quality. But you are happy, and that's what counts. You should try the Minox format. You'll love it.

Seriously - if you want the best results, get the best lens you can afford and don't crop.



Since the IQ at the edges and corners is generally lower than that in the middle then I only "sacrifice" the portions of the image with lower IQ by cropping FF or using a 1.6x sensor.

I have several excellent L lenses that I use and still, they aren't perfect out to the edges/corners in FF but the center crops are much better.





Feb 25, 2007 at 11:47 AM
johnastovall
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p.9 #2 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


dhphoto wrote:
Some of the parts are no doubt interchangeable but others like the viewfinder, mirror assembly, VF prism, screens, focusing system will have to be made/adapted especially for the new 1Ds series, a costly undertaking

David


And must of those sub assemblies for FF already exist in the current 1Ds . It's not like they have to build any new plant. Just some production line changes. As for tooling cost, by now Canon has I'm sure already written off the old equipment tooling and most of that cost by be borne by sub-contractors anyway...



Feb 25, 2007 at 11:57 AM
johnastovall
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p.9 #3 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


jerryrock wrote:
What is it that you are looking for? Full frame, more pixels? Why does the Mark III disapoint you?


I wanted a new FF, 22mpixels and much greater DR than the 5D. I want the preformance of a MF back of about a generation back to use with my EF lenses in a EOS body.

To me the MkIII is useless...




Feb 25, 2007 at 12:00 PM
annayu
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p.9 #4 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


Dunno about everyone else, but I'm enormously pleased with the new speedlite 580EX II. Just in the nick of time when I was going to buy a couple.

-Anna



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:01 PM
mfurman
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p.9 #5 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


johnastovall: To me the MkIII is useless...

Isn't it a bit of an exaggeration.



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:11 PM
brainiac
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p.9 #6 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


How can the resolving power differ if the pixel pitch is the same for the 1DsII and the 1D III ??? A 1DIII sensor (crop 1.281x) upscaled to FF would net 16.58 mpixel. Close enough to make no difference. Am I missing something?

Yes. Imagine a 2 bit sensor, like a photocopier. Each pixel is black or white. It might have an unimaginably sharp pixel pitch, but that isn't going to help: a piece of chocolate on black velvet will look the same as a cat.

This is why the performance of digital has overtaken film faster than expected. Film grain turned out not to have many levels even though it was small.

A camera with great dynamic and tonal range doesn't need such small pixels to give you as much information as a camera with smaller but less accurate pixels.



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:13 PM
hahr
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p.9 #7 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


johnastovall: To me the MkIII is useless...

mfurman: Isn't it a bit of an exaggeration.

probably.   the 1D mkIII can always be used as a doorstop, hammer, or the dog's chew toy -- all of which are useful.

joking, of course.

-erik



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:34 PM
hahr
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p.9 #8 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


annayu wrote:
Dunno about everyone else, but I'm enormously pleased with the new speedlite 580EX II. Just in the nick of time when I was going to buy a couple.

-Anna


i'm excited to finally see a weather-resistant flash.   the new locking system is a welcome change for cold weather use while wearing gloves and the PC sockets will make pocketwizard connections much, much more simple.

-erik



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:37 PM
johnastovall
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p.9 #9 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


mfurman wrote:
Isn't it a bit of an exaggeration.


No, because I have no use for an non-full body with the style and body of work I'm developing...



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:49 PM
brainiac
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p.9 #10 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


Since the IQ at the edges and corners is generally lower than that in the middle then I only "sacrifice" the portions of the image with lower IQ by cropping FF or using a 1.6x sensor.

I have several excellent L lenses that I use and still, they aren't perfect out to the edges/corners in FF but the center crops are much better.


I think there is a flaw in your reasoning. By your measure, your best photos will be taken by distancing yourself from your subject and just using the central few millimeters of your frame. After all, your lens performance in the center is usually exquisite. On axis performance of most lenses is so good that you should try to get your image within the bounds of the central few pixels ;)

That was my point about the Minox. A crap medium format camera with a crap lens will usually outperform the very best 35mm film camera. I used to play with a Lubitol for fun. It had a small plastic lens and the whole camera cost me £13. It didn't exactly compete with my Rolleis but it certainly gave any 35mm a run for its money. Just because a lens resolves below the pixel pitch doesn't mean that the lesser enlargement required from FF images won't provide sharper corners than a cropped sensor. The cropped sensor image will require more enlargement. Peeking at 100% is very misleading.

A 1.3 crop factor, with the same pixel pitch, means a 1.3 enlargement disadvantage. That buys the FF camera quite a lot of leeway in corner lens performance. Maybe the old 16-35 really is 1.3 times worse in the FF corners than it is at the 1.3 crop corners. Meanwhile in the center the crop camera gets cropped on. If ultimate image quality is important, you would be well advised to look very carefully at FF even if your lenses aren't quite so sharp in the corners.



Feb 25, 2007 at 12:52 PM
BeeMan458
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p.9 #11 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


"Anyone else out there feeling the pain??"

(Warning, the below is tongue in cheek.)

Being "stuck" with a 10D, as I suffer the indignities foisted upon my photographic sensibilities, photographically speaking, it has become terribly oppressive in the least; so yes, I feel your pain. But being of limited means, I currently must spend available monies on the more mundane; filters, tripods, bags, and more filters, tripods and bags, which drags this oppression out ever so excruciatingly longer, I can't imagine the psychological harm I've had to endured nor the amount of therapy I'm going need to get over these feelings of doing without.

So although I don't hang out with the 1Ds crowd (I tried but they won't even let me hold the door open for them as in order to be a page, you have to have, at least, a 30D or a used 1D), yes, I can sympathize and yes, I do feel your pain, every time I pick-up and use my 10D.

Waaaaaaaaa! Waaaaaaaaaa! Waaaaaaaaa!

Edited by BeeMan458 on Feb 25, 2007 at 10:15 AM GMT



Feb 25, 2007 at 01:02 PM
Emile Gregoire
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p.9 #12 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


Question you always have to ask yourself is, "what is holding me back from taking great pictures?". While I can imagine that you're disappointed that there isn't a new 1Ds as of yet, I can also imagine that in 99.9% of the cases it isn't the camera that is holding you back from taking excellent pictures. You don't have to compete with MF or whatever format - as long as you take the most beautiful pictures in the world nobody is going to complain. Heck, you could probably shoot them on a 300D and still sell them...


Feb 25, 2007 at 01:14 PM
dhphoto
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p.9 #13 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


The very first hour the 1D3 was announced (I know because I was up in the middle of the night with a young child) the bickering started.

Isn't it great - isn't it sad it hasn't got this- isn't it wondeful it has got that- how much better are my photos going to be with an extra 1.5 frames per second and auto dust removal, I can't manage without that new LCD and only using one hand to push the buttons.

It's capitalism folks, pure and simple. Get sucked in if you choose.

David




Feb 25, 2007 at 01:16 PM
Tentacle
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p.9 #14 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


brainiac wrote:
Yes. Imagine a 2 bit sensor, like a photocopier. Each pixel is black or white. It might have an unimaginably sharp pixel pitch, but that isn't going to help: a piece of chocolate on black velvet will look the same as a cat.

This is why the performance of digital has overtaken film faster than expected. Film grain turned out not to have many levels even though it was small.

A camera with great dynamic and tonal range doesn't need such small pixels to give you as much information as a camera with smaller but less accurate pixels.


Resolving power of a sensor is, ultimately, how many lines it can display in its total width or height, so how dense the spatial frequency can be. It's tested at 100% contrast lines and 50% contrast lines, vertically, horizontally and diagonally.

Now, in the extreme case of a single-bit (on/off) sensor you'll run into problems because the very limited DR wrecks the resolving power. Especially with testing 50% contrast lines. But once you're comfortably past, say, 4 stops DR, then it shouldn't be an issue anymore. So I still can't see how a DR improvement of the 1DIII sensor can cause a major difference.



Feb 25, 2007 at 01:21 PM
johnastovall
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p.9 #15 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


limitdown wrote:
They're going to milk everybody's wallets using the Mk3 first, and when the ASP drops (average selling price), the sales volume drops, or competition steps up, then that's when they'll introduce the 1DsMk3. Canon has no reason to release that now.
Intel has also been playing this game with us for decades. We should be used to it by now...


Nonsense, they could get my 6 big now with a 1DsMk3. I just won't spend money any amount on anything less than full frame. 20D was the first and only one I'll ever own. When I get a 1DsMkII to goes and the 5D becomes the back up.




Feb 25, 2007 at 01:36 PM
RJJR
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p.9 #16 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


brainiac wrote:
By your measure, your best photos will be taken by distancing yourself from your subject and just using the central few millimeters of your frame.


I simply fill the portion of the frame I know I'll use with the subject to get the best focus and IQ I can. On a 1.6x can I usually use the entire frame, not so on an FF.

Maybe on a 1.3x I'd get similar results as the 1.6x as far as using the "sweet spot" of the lens is concerned but I don't own one so I can't comment on it.




Feb 25, 2007 at 01:50 PM
brainiac
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p.9 #17 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


Resolving power of a sensor is, ultimately, how many lines it can display in its total width or height

Only if you are a lithographer, not a photographer. A photographer needs to resolve colour and tone, not just lines. That's why one camera can apparently resolve more even though it has the same pixel pitch as another. It resolves the same number of lines, but more accurate tone and colour. To the human eye it seems to be resolving a whole lot more accurate information. Accurate information is what the eye wants in photos.



Feb 25, 2007 at 02:03 PM
BeeMan458
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p.9 #18 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


"Get sucked in if you choose."

I'd love to; "Please, take me!" But nooooo, other photographic financial commitments are acting as a serious impediment because this year's planned photographic expenditures will equal or exceed the value of a 1D3. It's so unfair. Where's Socialism when you need it?

I'm so disappointed.



Feb 25, 2007 at 02:07 PM
brainiac
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p.9 #19 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread



I simply fill the portion of the frame I know I'll use with the subject to get the best focus and IQ I can. On a 1.6x can I usually use the entire frame, not so on an FF.


In my experience this is incorrect. The 24-105 can provide sweet corners on a 5D. The 17-40 comes close, and in enlargements I would expect the 5D/17-40 at least to match a 1.6 crop camera ONCE THE IMAGES ARE ENLARGED TO THE SAME SIZE. There are many Canon L lenses that light FF corners well (e.g. 85, 135). The 1.3 or 1.6 crop incurs an image quality penalty either due to increased enlargement, or due to the need to cram more pixels into a smaller space. Crop cameras need greater enlargement or smaller pixels, and therefore they put more pressure on a lens, not less.



Feb 25, 2007 at 02:15 PM
D. von Briesen
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p.9 #20 · 'Official' Post-PMA Discussion thread


Hey Joshua, how are you? Your camera served me well for quite some time! I still have it (the 1Ds "Classic" and I'm considering converting it for infrared).
Eventually I bought a MII, again used, again saved a few dollars, again from somebody on FM. FM's been such a great source of information, correct spelling, trenchant critiques, and lovely pix almost daily!! Thanks too, Josh, for the many very kind comments regarding my work.

And to the snarkers who always feel it necessary to opine that it's the photographer not the equipment; how much bettter will your pictures be? etc, etc, if you really read the original posts you'll realize that my only real "disappointment" is that sports shooters & photojournalists got theirs first!! (Although it's a little disconcerting that it's their second upgrade to our none, but the economics of market share are obviously driving that.)

It's so facile to step into any discussion about equipment and insert the same tired cliche regarding the photographer and equipment. But I doubt there's a photographer among us who doesn't strive in some fashion or another to improve their equipment to improve their final output.

(BTW: very well put, what you said, Dan. Thanks. I can't help but envy your Grand Poobah Super-Digi MKX-S2-IIIb but then again how many of us can ever truly hope to own one of those!!)

And this is especially true when it comes to digital.

That said, I can promise you I'll be doing everything I can to continually improve my photographic skills. Get up earlier, more often; hike longer and harder; do more research about great places to be; push myself in new and difficult ways to force different "seeing"; study more about processing techniques; strive to improve my printing: as they often say, the harder I work, the luckier I get!!

Still, all the developments that went into the 1DM3 bode nothing but great things for the new 1DsM3 when it does come out. I'm excited and looking forward to some very significant improvements in IQ that are quite specific to my needs as a photographer.

Could I go out and buy a 4x5 as someone suggested? Sure. I struggle with this all the time, particularly when it comes to being taken seriously by some magazine publishers (in my backyard, Arizona Highways in particular; read their submission policies and you'll understand) and a fine arts buying public that seems to think the only serious photographic art still must emanate from film.

But I fell in love with photography because of digital. I love control of the entire process, the immediacy, the incredible rapidity with which one can improve their skills, the workflow of a DSLR as opposed to large format film.

Economically, the kit of lenses already owned argues for staying within the DSLR format. The radical cost of shifting to a fully augmented digital medium back with hassy body and lenses can't be justified at present. I'm not sure that my kind of hiking intensive landscape work would be particularly well served with a medium format system either. One can dream of the IQ from a 39 MP Phase One, but cost, convenience, already owned equipment needs always be considered.

As for the pure and simple capitalism of it all, I'm not sucked in. I know only too well how and when to distrust corporate consumer manipulation.

Actually, with this next generation of cameras, I think we're finally reaching the tipping point where one will be able to think of a new top-end DSLR as a 5-8 year camera body.

True, dust removal, easier MLU access, larger live LCD, more readily adjustable multi-image bracketing, and other convenience upgrades don't necessarily make for better images, although the ease with which one can work and time saved might suggest, obliquely, better images. DR increase; 14 bit tonal gradations (any of you ever experience mild posterization, even in 12 bit, even with 1Ds M2 files, when trying to increase shadow detail in a full range or beyond image file? I thought so!); less shadow noise (thus more detail); better, more usable high ISO: these are all things people have discussed on these pages for years.

How can you fault someone for wanting to take advantage of that?





Feb 25, 2007 at 02:17 PM
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