Tentacle wrote:
The report claims that Sony will switch its focus to making CMOS sensors for digicams and consumer devices.
It is good to see this... And not surprising...
Sony has been praising CMOS sensors in their adverts for their top end Camcorders for a while... Pointing out their better colour fidelity, lower noise etc.... The last 6 or so months more and more of their new higher end models (especially HD) have had CMOS sensors of up to 4Mp. The size of these sensors is also increasing.
The Cell processor hasn't had the level of on-sales that Sony hoped for... And the Playstation 3 Processor (if like the PS1 and PS2) will only be updated every 4 years or so... Outsouricng the leading edgle 45nm production to a specialist company makes sense...
Also, there have been several news reports about some of Sony's other business units struggle to retain market share / profitability targets. Sony does a very nice business selling sensors to other manufacturers.
So it is IMO a sure bet that:
a) Sony is working on new CMOS APS-C and FF DSLR sensors to both sell and use in their own cameras...
b) Nikon (who sell Sony the imaging devices for creating their chips) will be pushing for CMOS sensors hard... (and will get them)
c) All this will make the DSLR market much more interesting in the next couple of rears...
Now let's see just how advanced Canon's "Next Generation" sensors are... (awesome I hope!)
jthrasher wrote:
if you really think the 1D series cameras will be full frame, you're wrong. The 1D series camera is made for sports and it will not be FF for a long time, if ever because sports shooters love their 1.3 crop factor.
That's why there's a 1Ds and the 5D. there's NO point to making the 1D full frame. none.
the 1Ds is a studio camera made for commercial photographers and the 5D is made for wedding photographers who wanted FF bought didn't want to spend the extra $$ for the 1Ds because they didn't really need the extra MP's either.
you heard it here first. the new 1D will NOT be full frame. get used to it. if you want FF, get a 1Ds or 5D. ...Show more →
I wish it were true. But I'm going with my boy Erwin on this one: 1Dv FF 12mp. They need to up resolution. Big pixels are good. Longer glass benefits Canon.
Tentacle wrote:
Ok, what exactly makes you think that FF sensors can now be produced at required cost level (whatever that exactly is)? Did the need to do field stitching get kicked out of the building by Canon?
Not saying it isn't true, Canon does make its own stepper scanners, so it is a posibility, but I'd like to know what the source is, if any, on the fact that the yield-wrecking field stitching isn't required anymore. Last time I checked, Canon had to use 3 exposure passes (and thus 3 masks) per layer for a full frame sensor, making it muchmore expensive to produce than the increment in surface area itself calls for.
Getting to 8 fps simply depends on pixel count, nothing else. Sensor size has nothing to do with it. An 8 Mpixel FF sensor will have the same output as a 8 Mpixel APS-C chip, assuming all else being equal.
After all, the maximum speed isn't determined by DIGIC, it's determined by the number of channels of the sensor and the sample rate frequency of the front-end processing chip. The DIGIC chip recieves the (compressed) RAW data from the front-end chip for further processing. Even for a 1DsII that's up to 20 MB per image. Four of those per second is peanuts for the DDR SDRAM interface.
Geoff Costello wrote:
It is good to see this... And not surprising...
Sony has been praising CMOS sensors in their adverts for their top end Camcorders for a while... Pointing out their better colour fidelity, lower noise etc.... The last 6 or so months more and more of their new higher end models (especially HD) have had CMOS sensors of up to 4Mp. The size of these sensors is also increasing.
The Cell processor hasn't had the level of on-sales that Sony hoped for... And the Playstation 3 Processor (if like the PS1 and PS2) will only be updated every 4 years or so... Outsouricng the leading edgle 45nm production to a specialist company makes sense...
Also, there have been several news reports about some of Sony's other business units struggle to retain market share / profitability targets. Sony does a very nice business selling sensors to other manufacturers.
So it is IMO a sure bet that:
a) Sony is working on new CMOS APS-C and FF DSLR sensors to both sell and use in their own cameras...
b) Nikon (who sell Sony the imaging devices for creating their chips) will be pushing for CMOS sensors hard... (and will get them)
c) All this will make the DSLR market much more interesting in the next couple of rears...
Now let's see just how advanced Canon's "Next Generation" sensors are... (awesome I hope!) ...Show more →
Interesting, I was told that both Sony and Canon FF would be CMOS, with Nikon returning with the infamous LBCast. I didn't believe it at the time.
I am confident that the 1Dv will be full frame. I am also confident that the 1Dvs will have in camera cropping like the 1Dv. To me this goal - ff in a 1v size body, is very Canon. I feel the quality of the information pointing to this conclusion is of similar quality of past years, when the pre-announcement rumors have been correct.
I also think it's likely that 1Dv is the name. It's a nice, short name that celebrates the accomplishment of returning to a normal camera size.
jthrasher wrote:
if you really think the 1D series cameras will be full frame, you're wrong. The 1D series camera is made for sports and it will not be FF for a long time, if ever because sports shooters love their 1.3 crop factor.
That's why there's a 1Ds and the 5D. there's NO point to making the 1D full frame. none.
the 1Ds is a studio camera made for commercial photographers and the 5D is made for wedding photographers who wanted FF bought didn't want to spend the extra $$ for the 1Ds because they didn't really need the extra MP's either.
you heard it here first. the new 1D will NOT be full frame. get used to it. if you want FF, get a 1Ds or 5D. ...Show more →
I disagree.
It's only a technical problem to combine a FF and high FPS. Once that is solved, the 1.3X format will be gone.
And Erwin hinted that such a thing actually does exist: "the 1D has no memory buffer, presumably wring directly to the flash card".
dcmiller wrote:
I am confident that the 1Dv will be full frame. I am also confident that the 1Dvs will have in camera cropping like the 1Dv. To me this goal - ff in a 1v size body, is very Canon. I feel the quality of the information pointing to this conclusion is of similar quality of past years, when the pre-announcement rumors have been correct.
I also think it's likely that 1Dv is the name. It's a nice, short name that celebrates the accomplishment of returning to a normal camera size.
That would be sweet! I'm not sure how a guy like myself, 5D in hand, would react though.
400d wrote:
Seems like you are infected with the Kiddo v.9 (a horrible spyware which causes the victim losing a lot of "bandwidth" and system resources)...perhaps it's a good time for you to upgrade from g/fOS 2.0 to wifeOS 0.7 beta.
However, a lot of users complain that wifeOS also used up too much of resources for useless decoration, which prohibits the user to install other software (for example, CanOne Digital v3).
400d wrote:
Seems like you are infected with the Kiddo v.9 (a horrible spyware which causes the victim losing a lot of "bandwidth" and system resources)...perhaps it's a good time for you to upgrade from g/fOS 2.0 to wifeOS 0.7 beta.
However, a lot of users complain that wifeOS also used up too much of resources for useless decoration, which prohibits the user to install other software (for example, CanOne Digital v3).
The Kiddo v.9 virus will require after 2 years, the following support, for girl version, ballet, figure skating, syncro swimming, etc, for boy version, swimming, baseball, and HOCKEY. At this point you will be required to do "team" pictures which you will need a Full Frame 1Dv.
10DFT wrote:
I can think of a couple of points for making the 1D full-frame.
First, the competitive market may require it. That is, Nikon & Sony may well introduce full frame soon. If either does, it will most likely be at the pro level.
Second, they may do it because they can. If the 5D was nothing else, it was an opportunity for Canon to hone its skills in the making of full-frame cameras. They spent a lot of money developing the ability to manufacture a relatively low-cost, good quality full frame sensor, and I would expect them to reap the rewards for that developmental cost. IMHO, the 5D wasn't a one-shot deal....Show more →
um... helloooo. that's why Canon has the 1ds. they don't need to introduce a third FF camera.
Yakim Peled wrote:
I disagree.
It's only a technical problem to combine a FF and high FPS. Once that is solved, the 1.3X format will be gone.
And Erwin hinted that such a thing actually does exist: "the 1D has no memory buffer, presumably wring directly to the flash card".
dude... the reason the 1D won't be a FF has NOTHING to do with a technical issue about FF sensors and fps. It's about CROP FACTOR!
Even if they solved the technical issue and were able to make a FF camera and a high fps rate they wouldn't do it to the 1D. Maybe the 1Ds... and that's a BIG maybe.
Sports shooters like the extra length they are getting out of their long glass without having to add extensions.
That's beside the point I was trying to make. Full Frame sensors are not 2.5 times more expensive than their APS-C counterparts (just the area increase, (1.6)² = 2.56) but more in the order of 10 to 20 times more expensive.
Canon itself claims this, and this factor of 10 was confirmed by an IC/chip expert who looked at sensor production from the vantagepoint of chip (CPU) production. Can't recall where this was posted on FM, could have been in one of the loose pre-PMA-speculation threads.
So while the 5D is relatively affordable, once you cram a fast 8-channel version into a professional 1D series body, you're way past the 5D price.
Now, if FAU4U / Jim Wilson says that APS-H is dead, then I'd like to know why the price advantage of that particular sensor size isn't an issue anymore. It would be if Canon can make full frame sensors with single exposure passes, but if it can't, then FF sensors remain considerably more expensive, thanks to that price hike as result of having to do field stitching.
Simply saying "Five Dee" doesn't answer any of these questions.
jthrasher wrote:
dude... the reason the 1D won't be a FF has NOTHING to do with a technical issue about FF sensors and fps. It's about CROP FACTOR!
Even if they solved the technical issue and were able to make a FF camera and a high fps rate they wouldn't do it to the 1D. Maybe the 1Ds... and that's a BIG maybe.
Sports shooters like the extra length they are getting out of their long glass without having to add extensions.
That's nonsensical. With a higher resolution sensor, they could get the same effect from cropping in the computer.
jthrasher wrote:
um... helloooo. that's why Canon has the 1ds. they don't need to introduce a third FF camera.
Ummmm, Hellooooo to you too!
If Canon sees a market for a full-frame camera in the $3-5K range, they'll produce it. And I think that there is a market. While I won't write off the 1.3X, it should be remembered that that format was produced when it was the largest sensor Canon could produce in a single pass. That point has possibly passed, so there's really no need for it any more.
Heck, (assuming that it's real for a second) if it's got a significant boost in DR over the 5D, I would grab one.
What does crop factor have to do with longer lenses? The 1Dv will have the same pixel density as the 1DII. The new camera starts at the same price point, and provides the same functionality for long lens shooters as the old camera. It also recovers the wide angle and dof control lost with a crop sensor.
This camera is first designed for corporate buyers. What need doesn't it address, except not allowing a few people to avoid longer lenses? If it's spec'd as designed it's a very good all around professional camera. Better than the 1DIIn, even without high per pixel quality.
jthrasher wrote:
dude... the reason the 1D won't be a FF has NOTHING to do with a technical issue about FF sensors and fps. It's about CROP FACTOR!
Even if they solved the technical issue and were able to make a FF camera and a high fps rate they wouldn't do it to the 1D. Maybe the 1Ds... and that's a BIG maybe.
Sports shooters like the extra length they are getting out of their long glass without having to add extensions.
I do not think any of this has anything to do with Canon's considerations.
Let's assume they can make a 1D Mk III with the 5D sensor and keep FPS intact and keep it at the same price level.
1. I think they will do it.
2. I think that sports shooters will like the extra MP and the bigger and brighter viewfinder much more than they like the "extra length".
Please do not forget that:
1. The sole reason for creating the cropped sensors was price. Once that is reduced to minimal levels (it can never be eliminated), we will see much more FF sensors, from all manufactures.
2. Canon stated that its aim is to have all its DSLR's - save from the cheapest - to be FF.
3. The "extra length" is not a real one. It looks like it but it actually isn't.
um... helloooo. that's why Canon has the 1ds. they don't need to introduce a third FF camera.
5D Mk II: 12 Mpixel entry level full frame
1D Mk III: 12 Mpixel 8-10 fps full frame sports shooter in pro body
1Ds Mk III: 22 Mpixel 4 fps full frame studio / reportage shooter in pro body
3 full frame cameras, without internal conflict or competition, 3 separated markets.
Lets not forget: If Canon ups the high ISO performance of 5D-sized photo sites, which seems likely since the pixel pitch would stay the same, yet process enhancements would lower the noise floor, then every sports shooter can simply take a 1.4x extender and up the ISO a notch, if they want more reach.
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