A cut down form of my original post on the ‘leak by Edwin Put’ Geoff Costello wrote:
Here’s my ‘interpretation’ of the leak by Edwin Puts here http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html which I understand to be very close to reality I think he has broken his NDA (or someone has)
What he calls the D1 doesn’t have the 5D’s sensor (too slow in data transfer for more than the 3 FPS in the 5D) but does have a much faster FF sensor of similar resolution to the 5D by using a next generation CMOS design. This has larger micro-lenses (as per 400D) and modified electrics to reduce the noise and increased sensitivity at a hardware level allowing higher ISO at acceptable noise levels.
When Edwin states that “Canons statement that from now on there will be no more 1.3 crop sensors” I understand that the missing item that Canon will be emphasising is their dynamic crop mode which delivers the equivalent of the 1.25 crop from the FF sensor on demand for that extra sense of reach…....Show more →
For clarity, what I have stated above as being my understanding is just that. Specifically Canon had experimental / pre-production cameras with the dynamic crop mode feature out last year with a number of sports / wildlife photographers etc. Indeed I would be confident that one or more of the readers of this forum would have seen or used one and can’t say for NDA like reasons. I understand that it is not uncommon for both new features to be added to the final spec of the released Canon pro camera (presumably because they where asked for or the ‘bugs were ironed out”) and features they trialled to be dropped (presumably because of feedback through the trial). I also do not know if Canon had any other versions of the sports 1 series out for trial (e.g APS-H only or no dynamic crop). That’s a mystery for later (if we ever hear).
I have not seen Canon’s announcement material for their new pro cameras so I can’t be certain this dynamic crop feature made it into the final version… My guess is that it would have (stops the screams from those APS-H lovers “you have taken away my extra tele-lens reach etc”) at no loss to those who don’t want it. However it would (presumably) all depend on the feedback from the pro user’s trialling the camera etc. as to how they found the dynamic crop feature to use. I also understand Canon was keen to differentiate the two new cameras. They were earlier toying with the idea of a unified 1 series Camera but had recieved strong feedback that the FPS image size etc needs of sports / wildlife etc were too different from the studio / landscape market for the 1Ds (as was the ‘acceptable’ price to the end user).
What inspired me to post the ‘interpretation’ of Edwin Put’s link was how close the core elements what he was quoting was to what I had heard was planned (almost 100% except for minor details like the 12mp on the “D1” which I had heard was a 5D like next generation CMOS etc.) and I seemed to have some additional "information" dating back to my posts last August which when linked together made sense of (translated) what Edwin was saying… So personally I believe that other than some language issues / interpretation etc. Edwin was has leaked real info (perhaps why it has been pulled from his site after a few hours)… And except for a couple of minor things, like Edwin’s 12mp and my sources dynamic crop mode, the match in facts between my older source and Edwin’s new quotes is strong making me believe this is going to be a very close fit to what is released…
d_chiesa wrote:
So is the print button making them more money? Maybe even increase Canon's reputation.
If canon thinks so, why not? That, or canon is trying to spite all those who complain about the lack of a mirror lock up button. Which ever you prefer to believe.
I'm surprised no hack-happy genius has yet to modify the firmware and turn the print button into a mirror lockup button yet.
d_chiesa wrote:
So is the print button making them more money? Maybe even increase Canon's reputation.
It sure did. Print button may not be important nor necessary elsewhere but it is in Japan. And Canon is a Japanese company, in case anyone forgets.
Direct Print/Pictbridge printers are popular over there. For the first time in 10 years, Canon Inc took back the No: 1 (2005) position in inkjet printer market from Epson and retains it in 2006. Ever since Canon's Bubblejet printers enter the market, the company has always held the No: 1 position for consumer printers until Epson broke it in 1995 with its series of inkjet photo printers. A decade of playing second to Epson in the domestic market is too much to handle for the top executives in Canon Inc especially those responsible for the inkjet segment.
lordcarl wrote:
It sure did. Print button may not be important nor necessary elsewhere but it is in Japan. And Canon is a Japanese company, in case anyone forgets.
Direct Print/Pictbridge printers are popular over there. For the first time in 10 years, Canon Inc took back the No: 1 (2005) position in inkjet printer market from Epson and retains it in 2006. Ever since Canon's Bubblejet printers enter the market, the company has always held the No: 1 position for consumer printers until Epson broke it in 1995 with its series of inkjet photo printers. A decade of playing second to Epson in the domestic market is too much to handle for the top executives in Canon Inc especially those responsible for the inkjet segment. ...Show more →
I fully agree with this. That print button is more for marketing and printer selling. Which also make money for the company...
In terms of your other comment regarding the obvious; that was my initial thought as well but it is actually a pretty interesting and detailed subject to study. Why isn't there any (or less) of the same nonsense going on the Olympus sites? Even the Nikon shooters are more reserved in general. Is it the size of the forum? If so, what is the needed critical mass and can that mass be combined from different locations to the same impact? Is it something the manufacturers are doing intentionally? If so, is there any way to keep it under control? If not, is it worth the potential risk that the beliefs instilled will be positive? (Look at the trashing they took with the release of the 30D - everyone was expecting more than they got and it hurt Canon's rep.) If you look into the subject deep enough it really is pretty interesting - and scary.
Of course, my comment was tongue-in-cheek. But I agree completely Henry, on the interest in the study. I find this stuff fascinating. There are of course many factors that contribute to this. Not the least, Canon themselves. They do have the best marketing too, without a doubt. They have also developed a schedule for updating products every 18 months. This creates expectation which fuels these discussions.
Is it positive? Well, they are making more money in this market than anyone else. The flip side is they are expected to ALWAYS dominate in every sector. If anyone else releases a great campaign, Canon will look like they dropped the ball. Hence the backlash with the 30D.
Nikon is a more conservative company, and they don't release as often as Canon, same with Olympus and Pentax. So you just don't have the typical hysteria you get on the Canon boards. There is just that expectation that Canon will always produce something big and at the cutting edge of technology. This is something Canon themselves created.
I think students will need to look in depth at the companies involved also. Culture, history, profit, marketing etc to get a full circle for the study. It will be interesting and I'd love to be able to see the final papers.
danmitchell wrote:
"Congrats to FMers. According to my son who is a student there, we are now being studied by researchers from the University of Pennsylvania who are looking at the impact of Internet rumors on product marketing..."
And congratulations to you for invalidating their study - unless the the purpose of the study is to measure differences between a discussion thread that knows it is being studied and a control group that does not know. (Researchers cannot assume that study subjects behave "normally" when they know they are being observed.)
If it is a real study (as oppposed to a "class project") your son may well have some difficult and awkward (and, I hope for him and you, not career changing) explaining to do about how he compromised his research.
If it's got a pellicle mirror a la 1NRS I'm all over it, place my order, I'll take it. Just throwing that in.
Eye control focus from the EOS-3 would be nice too, but the quiet shutter & fixed mirror would be ideal for shooting theatre / dance / opera / symphonic concerts / live acoustic performance of all kinds (not to mention golf).
R
p.s. interesting (while we're on the subject of printers) that Canon's come out with a dedicated line of Hahnemuller papers for their printers. So they're targeting the professional printer market as well...
But look at what Nikon has done with their D2X. If I'm a pro who wants more res than 4mp (D2H/s), but the same fps, I have to go with the D2X. But I don't like the crop mode in order to get the fps, so what do I do? I'm glad I don't shoot Nikon. I can't figure out why they haven't come out with a successor to the D2H that's 8mp or more.
True, Nikon being a conservative company hasn't released an 8MP, 8fps camera yet. Many are predicting that it will come shortly.
The problem here is that we are discussing theory. Ask any D2Xs shooter that uses the HSC mode and they will tell you they love it. I have used the D2Xs and love the ability to go to crop mode. Yes, it takes a little getting used to .Sure, you're not using the entire frame/viewfinder, but it doesn't seem to matter that much when in use. However, this is where the D2H replacement will definately have its place.
But I can see a time when a camera in crop mode will fill the entire viewfinder (EVF maybe? who knows). Then the limitations of crop mode will be greatly reduced.
Yesterday there was an 'equipment open day' at the bird reserve which I go to regularly. I ended up speaking to a guy from a Canon Pro store in the UK. Eventually the conversation got to what is going to be released shortly. Apparently his store was given notice of a Canon 3D, with a built in grip, he described it as a mini 1D, they even got sent an image of it from Canon distribution arm. Anyway, just thought I would throw this rumour into t'mill!
Catto wrote:
If it's got a pellicle mirror a la 1NRS I'm all over it, place my order, I'll take it. Just throwing that in.
Eye control focus from the EOS-3 would be nice too, but the quiet shutter & fixed mirror would be ideal for shooting theatre / dance / opera / symphonic concerts / live acoustic performance of all kinds (not to mention golf).
R
Why so much interest in a pellicle mirror? You can already get 8.5 fps and I can only imagine the next 1D will be that fast or faster. Is there a specific reason you need this because no mfg has thought it necessary since the short lived 1NRS? N.B. The 1VHS can do 10 fps with a regular mirror.
Sign me up for the "no pellicle mirror" crowd because I don't want to lose a full stop of light in the VF.
James, the pellicle mirror system is capable of being rather quiet in operation. That's a large part of the attraction. If you've never used one, you should try- it's a tad bit fun.
nikt wrote:
True, Nikon being a conservative company hasn't released an 8MP, 8fps camera yet. Many are predicting that it will come shortly.
A "conservative" company?
OK, now that's a politically correct statement if I've ever read one.
The truth is that Nikon hasn't released anything more than the DX format because they can't. Case closed. No one except for Nikon apologists have ever believed that Nikon is "studying" a FF sensor and that DX is all anyone needs. I sure hope Nikon has found someone to produce a sensor for them because they need it if they want to hold on to their diminished high end section of the market.
ISO1600 wrote:
James, the pellicle mirror system is capable of being rather quiet in operation. That's a large part of the attraction. If you've never used one, you should try- it's a tad bit fun.
Ahh, now there's one reason for it. A "stealth" camera.
Nikon isn't being conservative. They simply can't afford to be competing in the full frame space right now. They already have difficulties maintaining production of their equipment, just look at the backorder for lenses such as the 18-200, delays in getting the D200 out, hard to find accessories, and recent discontinuation of many products as evidence. They've turned their focus to the low and mid range market now and don't have the resources to support a full range of products like Canon does.
nikt wrote:
Thats a bit harsh Dan. Don't worry, its like Big Brother. You forget the cameras are there after a few days!
Edited by nikt on Feb 12, 2007 at 10:14 PM GMT
My son is not involved in the project in any way. There are a couple of ways of looking at this: one is that by saying something I invaldiated their project (very debatable for a bunch of reasons) or; one might take the point of view that we have every right to know that someone is peering into a portion of our lives without our knowledge and/or permission.
Personally, I go with option #2. I don't view the Internet has any different than any other public place. I don't know about you, but if someone is following me down a public street watch and documenting what I do I am not going to be a happy camper. Might not be able to stop it but it doesn't mean I have to like.
Alistair101 wrote:
Yesterday there was an 'equipment open day' at the bird reserve which I go to regularly. I ended up speaking to a guy from a Canon Pro store in the UK. Eventually the conversation got to what is going to be released shortly. Apparently his store was given notice of a Canon 3D, with a built in grip, he described it as a mini 1D, they even got sent an image of it from Canon distribution arm. Anyway, just thought I would throw this rumour into t'mill!
OK, so where is that picture? I wanna see it!
Some serious rumors starting to show up. Finally it is becoming a bit more substantial. That stuff from erwin puts site is also pretty intriguing...
Hrow wrote:
My son is not involved in the project in any way. There are a couple of ways of looking at this: one is that by saying something I invaldiated their project (very debatable for a bunch of reasons) or; one might take the point of view that we have every right to know that someone is peering into a portion of our lives without our knowledge and/or permission.
Personally, I go with option #2. I don't view the Internet has any different than any other public place. I don't know about you, but if someone is following me down a public street watch and documenting what I do I am not going to be a happy camper. Might not be able to stop it but it doesn't mean I have to like....Show more →
Don't confuse research targeted at you (with all the personal details attached to it) with research of group behavior (which this seems to be about) without any link to whatever personal traits you exhibit online. The latter lacks the detail you seem to be worried about. After all, it's about how a group acts as a whole, not how you, as identifiable member of that group, may act. That "drowns" in whatever majority behavior emerges.
Edited by Tentacle on Feb 12, 2007 at 02:21 PM GMT
I highly doubt that Canon`s new flagship will use the 1V body from 2000(?).
I cannot believe that there was no progress in AF, metering etc. sinde 7 years.
Stefan
