Stefan wrote:
I highly doubt that Canon`s new flagship will use the 1V body from 2000(?).
I cannot believe that there was no progress in AF, metering etc. sinde 7 years.
It would be 1V-like, shape and form. Not a one-on-one copy.
I guess it won't be the 1V body literally, but more a 1V like body...
It would be pretty sweet, since the 1V is really a very nice camera and the built quality and finish is awesome.
Why do I get the feeling that I won't get my real 22MP full color sensor (so 22*3 MP ) any time soon :@ ... Sorry for that but I really thought after the long time Canon could do something better than a redone 1DsMk2 with a few more MPs.
Pherhaps I will be a little lucky and they remove the AA Filter so that we get sharper images with more micro details...
Hrow wrote:
one might take the point of view that we have every right to know that someone is peering into a portion of our lives without our knowledge and/or permission.
So you have some expectation of privacy when you post here on a world wide unrestricted forum? That would certainly be a different take on internet forums.
Tentacle wrote:
Don't confuse research targeted at you (with all the personal details attached to it) with research of group behavior (which this seems to be about) without any link to whatever personal traits you exhibit online. The latter lacks the detail you seem to be worried about. After all, it's about how a group acts as a whole, not how you, as identifiable member of that group, may act. That "drowns" in whatever majority behavior emerges.
Edited by Tentacle on Feb 12, 2007 at 02:21 PM GMT
Not taking it as a personal attack, just making a point - apparently badly- for those who would/did accuse me of spoiling their research. That point is that I am under no obligation to participate under their terms and am free to change them if I so desire.
Let's get back to cameras...
Why would anyone want a selectable 1.3ish crop function on a FF apart from reducing the file size for faster FPS or image uploading? Someone mentioned a few pages ago that this would keep the APS-H shooters happy but I don't see why. What long lens shooters are concerned about is pixel density and that doesn't change if you simply crop a sensor with an electronic mask. Personally, I give Nikon all the credit in the world for turning a design failure (inability to get FPS up to pro levels) into a marketing positive but that's about the only good thing I can see about the cropping on the D2X. What am I missing?
beewee wrote:
Moral: If you don't like what Canon puts out, suck it up or go to another manufacturer that meets your needs.
And people have done that - the 30D, while being a very good camera, was not very competitive against the likes of the D-200 and as a result, it's sales have been relatively flat. Many people have decided that in this case, Nikon meets their needs better than Canon.
Chris Hauser wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that I won't get my real 22MP full color sensor (so 22*3 MP ) any time soon :@ ... Sorry for that but I really thought after the long time Canon could do something better than a redone 1DsMk2 with a few more MPs.
Pherhaps I will be a little lucky and they remove the AA Filter so that we get sharper images with more micro details...
22mp would have very light or no AA filter. The 12 would still have one, I think. Leica could get a little wild, no one is shooting fashion with an M8.
I expect the new chips are better than just increased MP and one stop better noise. CMOS typically doesn't have very good fill - the percent surface sensitive to light. Canon has said for a long time that they have addressed this problem, but we don't know to what degree. CCD bayer sensor makers quote fill up to 90%. Canon has never given a number, and doesn't have to, as they don't sell these chips. But there will be a hundred little things that will give these new 1 series a better picture than the 5D. Does that add up to a rather trivial 5% better, or a significant 50% better?
The 5D sensors are likely made on the 1Ds steppers. It's not the 1Ds chip, but it's probably close. The new sensors are made on new highly modified steppers. What has Canon learned? What will be made on the 1DsII steppers? The 5D replacement, of course. What will be the 5D replacements mp?
The other place math works is throughput. The 1DIII (the 'Erwin') may be 12mp 10 fps.So that means 120mps for the 'Erwin S'.
Why would anyone want a selectable 1.3ish crop function on a FF apart from reducing the file size for faster FPS or image uploading? Someone mentioned a few pages ago that this would keep the APS-H shooters happy but I don't see why. What long lens shooters are concerned about is pixel density and that doesn't change if you simply crop a sensor with an electronic mask. Personally, I give Nikon all the credit in the world for turning a design failure (inability to get FPS up to pro levels) into a marketing positive but that's about the only good thing I can see about the cropping on the D2X. What am I missing?
...Show more →
You're missing Psychology, like the study you reported. For a long lens shooter it's very dissatisfying to look through the telephoto and see a very loosely framed subject. I think we will see the crop on the Erwin S model too, as that will be the long lens shooters first choice. Maybe that camera can do 12mp 8fps in crop.
Geoff Costello wrote:
I have not seen Canon’s announcement material for their new pro cameras so I can’t be certain this dynamic crop feature made it into the final version… My guess is that it would have (stops the screams from those APS-H lovers “you have taken away my extra tele-lens reach etc”) at no loss to those who don’t want it.
Hrow wrote:
Why would anyone want a selectable 1.3ish crop function on a FF apart from reducing the file size for faster FPS or image uploading? Someone mentioned a few pages ago that this would keep the APS-H shooters happy but I don't see why. What long lens shooters are concerned about is pixel density and that doesn't change if you simply crop a sensor with an electronic mask. Personally, I give Nikon all the credit in the world for turning a design failure (inability to get FPS up to pro levels) into a marketing positive but that's about the only good thing I can see about the cropping on the D2X. What am I missing? ...Show more →
I was going to bring up exactly what Hrow did regarding this. The APS-H shooters will have gained nothing in a 12MP FF sensor. I don't want a gimmicky crop mode ala the ISO boosting "stabilization" some P&S models offer. Someone mentioned pages ago the crop mode would help the AF points be where they needed to be, which is wrong. The AF point placement and size don't change one bit, so I don't see how cropping in PS isn't a better option other than frame rate, and from that perspective, Canon professional 1 series fast body has never catered to amateurs. It does indeed look like Nikon might be the better solution for those who want a wildlife body or find themselves FL limited. Unfortunately I don't want to carry around a bunch of Canon lenses for the 1DsII and a bunch of Nikon lenses for times I need the crop factor.
The truth is that Nikon hasn't released anything more than the DX format because they can't. Case closed. No one except for Nikon apologists have ever believed that Nikon is "studying" a FF sensor and that DX is all anyone needs. I sure hope Nikon has found someone to produce a sensor for them because they need it if they want to hold on to their diminished high end section of the market.
Come on Nikon!! I'm rooting for you!
Whether Nikon can or can't release a FF camera is kind of not the point. I personally would much rather see Nikon release an 8MP, 8fps camera than concentrate on an FF sensor even with some of the advantages FF might have. Most people at Nikon would talk about more glass than anything else.
Canon dominates this pro market. If Nikon thought that they could recapture it profitably with the intro of a FF, then they would. Is there going to be a mass exodus to Nikon from all the Canon pro shooters if they release FF? Doubt it. And I think Nikon doubts it. If they saw a market for it, and it was profitable, then thats when they will release it.
The upper end pro market is tiny compared to the overall scheme of things. Nikon is not Canon when it comes to size or funds.
Geoff Costello wrote:
A cut down form of my original post on the ‘leak by Edwin Put’....
....What he calls the D1 doesn’t have the 5D’s sensor (too slow in data transfer for more than the 3 FPS in the 5D) but does have a much faster FF sensor of similar resolution to the 5D by using a next generation CMOS design. This has larger micro-lenses (as per 400D) and modified electrics to reduce the noise and increased sensitivity at a hardware level allowing higher ISO at acceptable noise levels....
This is of interest. I would hope that by increasing the sensitivity at the hardware level (and thus lowering the noise floor), we might see an increased dynamic range as a result. Maybe.....
An extra stop of DR over the 5D does raise an eyebrow for me.
lordcarl wrote:
......................................................
Photojournalists do not need 16.7MP or 22MP cameras. 8.2MP is adequate for most assignments. 10-12MP are still OK for them. Nature and wildlife photographers would welcome 10 and 12MP as such cameras allow them to enlarge their images to A1 and A0 posters for sale (they have been selling posters since film days). Not unusual to see the majority of them opted for the EOS 5D than 1Ds MK II.
Some National Geographic-contracted photographers may use either the EOS 5D and 1Ds MK II but this is due to the cameras' full-frame sensor rather than higher MP count!
There's plenty of demand from photojournalists for the described 'Erwin S'. Canon should make one camera with the best large print IQ possible. If they were just chasing megapixels, I'm sure the Erwin S could be 30mp.But I believe with both camera, they looked at what makes sense. Also, if they want these cameras to lead for three years, they need to go a little high.
What inspired me to post the ‘interpretation’ of Edwin Put’s link was how close the core elements what he was quoting was to what I had heard was planned (almost 100% except for minor details like the 12mp on the “D1” which I had heard was a 5D like next generation CMOS etc.) and I seemed to have some additional "information" dating back to my posts last August which when linked together made sense of (translated) what Edwin was saying… So personally I believe that other than some language issues / interpretation etc. Edwin was has leaked real info (perhaps why it has been pulled from his site after a few hours)… And except for a couple of minor things, like Edwin’s 12mp and my sources dynamic crop mode, the match in facts between my older source and Edwin’s new quotes is strong making me believe this is going to be a very close fit to what is released…
But – as always, time will tell.. (not long now) ...Show more →
The sense I had of of Erwins article is that he was relating information told to him, maybe in a five minute conversation. If he had signed an NDA, the information would be more structured and complete. I don't see any benefit for Canon of putting a mechanical lens expert under NDA for a new digital body.
His information fits too well for a guy who doesn't follow gossip.
Chris Hauser wrote:
Why do I get the feeling that I won't get my real 22MP full color sensor (so 22*3 MP ) any time soon :@ ... Sorry for that but I really thought after the long time Canon could do something better than a redone 1DsMk2 with a few more MPs.
Pherhaps I will be a little lucky and they remove the AA Filter so that we get sharper images with more micro details...
so how much would you be happy paying for a 66 megapixel` (22*3 MP ) camera?
$30k $40k $75k? i think Erwin's 1ds 22MP camera will cost less than each lens for the camera you desire.
Chris Hauser wrote:
Pherhaps I will be a little lucky and they remove the AA Filter so that we get sharper images with more micro details...
That would be a mistake. The resulting aliasing makes false pixels, which show up as moire and jaggies. Mathematics rules the universe and there is no way around the Nyquist Sampling Theorem.
The 5D's filter seems very good, not as strong as the 20D, but still effective.
nikt wrote:
Whether Nikon can or can't release a FF camera is kind of not the point. I personally would much rather see Nikon release an 8MP, 8fps camera than concentrate on an FF sensor even with some of the advantages FF might have. Most people at Nikon would talk about more glass than anything else.
Canon dominates this pro market. If Nikon thought that they could recapture it profitably with the intro of a FF, then they would. Is there going to be a mass exodus to Nikon from all the Canon pro shooters if they release FF? Doubt it. And I think Nikon doubts it. If they saw a market for it, and it was profitable, then thats when they will release it.
The upper end pro market is tiny compared to the overall scheme of things. Nikon is not Canon when it comes to size or funds. ...Show more →
DX lenses cover full frame, according to Tom Hogan.
Sony will release full frame this year, Nikon within 18 months. Both are likely to be CMOS, not CCD. Sony may have developed something special. Nikon may be in a bit of a bind with getting the sensor technology they need. There are a handful of sources, but it is certainly unclear how they will position a full frame product. It may need to be more 5D like.
This is an area Canon's strategy is very clear. With an 'Erwin S' type camera, set the bar as high as possible, an then dare competitors to challenge. Then with the 5D, have a high value product. Sony and Nikon probably can not build an 'Erwin S'. If they aim at the 5D, Canon will then 'move the cheese'. With Canon re-using the high-end steppers for the 5D, which is likely, they have a favorable low cost structure that their competitors don't.
I hope Sony is very serious about building professional cameras.
dcmiller wrote:
The sense I had of of Erwins article is that he was relating information told to him, maybe in a five minute conversation. If he had signed an NDA, the information would be more structured and complete. I don't see any benefit for Canon of putting a mechanical lens expert under NDA for a new digital body.
His information fits too well for a guy who doesn't follow gossip.
The "5 minute conversation" concept makes sense to me or a 1 page marketing glossy... (both relatively fact free )
Either way I also agree that it is unlikely Erwin would deliberately break an NDA (what long standing professional would). This was written in a style like he was commenting on something he thought was already announced... So one can imagine the quick Email / phone call to him from the friendly local Canon rep "Excuse me Erwin but would you mind..."
Once Sony develops an FF sensor, more brands will be able to release their own FF DSLRs - Pentax and Samsung in particular, apart from Sony itself and main customer, Nikon.
211 pages - can this topic reach 280 pages before the official announcement, either on Feb 19 or 20?
dcmiller wrote:
Sony will release full frame this year, Nikon within 18 months.
Is this knowledge, or just more speculation?
Sony's second body is due in August -- at least that is the latest report. Perhaps they will get something in the shops by Christmas. As far as I can tell, it won't be FF and is most likely the successor the KM 7D (where the A100 was essentially an update of the KM 5D). It will have more features and better build quality than the A100, but FF? Probably not. The KM platform that they bought was not the ideal platform to get into if your intentions were to go FF-professional. It is pretty clear, Sony is focused on the amatuer/pro-sumer market. They want volume and profits (and a pro body isn't going to do that for them). I would be very surprised if they make a run at the professional market, and even more surprised if they succeed.
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